Yea this does happen a lot. But you kind of need to take it with a grain of salt and be patient and move quick on a good deal for a pin you want. Some that make it their business to flip pins have overhead and need to make a profit and I get that. I also understand your frustration, many times I see a good deal on a pin one day on CL then the same pin listed two days later by a seller for an additional $600 TO $1500 added to it. I guess you just have to stay on top of things and move quickly if you see a deal that interests you.

He knew you were blowing him shit right????

Unfortunately I feel your pain. It is very frustrating to see this happen and especially to have a pin slip out from under you by this slime. Buying to clean and sell is one thing, but doubling your price is really BS. We have a local shop here that charges these prices. I mean they are CRAZY, and whats better is there stuff will sit for years and the price stays the same. I just don't understand.

Don't buy from dealer, easy fix. They have to pay overheard, whereas collectors don't.

I've seen a game like STTNG sell for 2000, and I've seen it sell for 4000. Prices can be all over the road, depending on condition, location, popularity, etcetc...

A game is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. I sold my HSII for 2500, but I've also seen them sell for 1200. Mine was full restore, including the cabinet.

Come to think of it, I know of a local shop here, too that has prices about 80 - 150 % over what I would pay. It claims to have sold somewhere around 100 pins but I haven't seen much inventory change in the 3 years that I have been "watching"

I work in retail. I know its frustrating trying to make a buck, especially in this economy. But, sometimes I bite the bullet and move the stuff out the door at rock bottom prices, just to freshen the store.

Yeah, I was going to make the same comment about overhead. It's a different beast when you have to pay for a building, employees, utilities, and taxes.

It's just the fact that if a person has room to have a bunch of pins, keeping one more around isn't that big a deal. Our prices for the cheaper stuff are really high sometimes. But we can afford to just stick it in the warehouse and let it sit until someone comes along willing to overpay for it. It's already made money on the route - any extra is gravy. I hate that, and it stinks. I think pins should be with people who will play them. But what can you do? We do have a showroom and staff to pay for...

Lisa I think your prices are pretty decent, and you seem like a stand-up person. I hope to deal with you soon!

I was pretty discouraged myself with the state or pins locally. I was getting the run around from operators selling JUNK for way too much and not much available on CL. It took me a month and a half to find my first pin but eventually the opportunity presented itself. I was checking here, KLOV, and RGP daily and eventually a local collector has a STTNG for sale. His price was average, the pin was way above average. An hour on the phone, a couple hours at this house looking it over, playing it, just plain BS'n with him and I had my first pin.

I was pretty discourage until that day and now I realize that its all about the patience. I assumed once I had money in hand the right pin would just drop in my hand but it doesn't happen like that. Those in business to make money are going to get all they can from you. If you want a deal AND a good pin, other collectors are the way to go.

My jaw just dropped to the floor when I saw a POTC listed on Craigs for $150. Figuring it was too good to be true, I Googled and found this garbage.

potc.jpeg

^^
Hey now, I own that machine and it isn't garbage. It is just misunderstood.. ha. The PF is pretty good and the sound aren't too bad. It is pretty fun but quite frustrating as well. I'd jump on it for $100 if I were you.

I wanted one of those for my kids. I would jump on it if I could find one.

ebay.com link: Zizzle Pirates Caribb Dead Mans Chest Pinball Machine

SURELY you know about this great deal they have on ebay

Oh. My. God. *face-palm*

Yeah I have seen them on there. Same seller has others too.

ebay.com link: Super Heroes Zizzle Prototype Pinball Coin Token Timer

Maybe I should jump on one for that price!

Nope. Not in my book. A lot of sellers are just ridiculous. There is one in Lisle, IL trying to sell an average at best condition Gorgar for... wait for it... $3,400 because he has to make a profit Only if he got scammed himself does he need to sell it for that. Every game in there was 1-3K over what any book, or any collector would tell you the price is. There are so many nice collectors out there who will sell or trade machines with you, and will be way more honest in terms of the issues. It has gotten to the point that I don't look at sellers, EB, CL, or anything. Any time I am looking to buy or trade, Pinside is the only place I go. If someone put up an average Gorgar for $3,400 on pinside they would get laughed silly.

This is not a rant, but my opinion. Been selling machines for over a decade.

Why is it ok that collectors can ask what they want for a machine and retailers can't or are considered overpriced. Sound like a catch 22.

Retailers not only pay overhead, but have to pay taxes and their business helps out the Economy. Retailers put more pinball machines in non collectors home which have very young kids, thus turning future generations onto pinball machine, keeping pinball alive. This keeps Stern in business, producing more machines.

I have come to the conclusion that collectors dislike retailers because they think they drive the price of machines up, but really the consumer does that by supply and demand. I have noticed that collectors sees what retailers sell their machines for and ask for those same prices themselves when its time to sell their machine. Check out Mr pinball classifieds, Ebay or RPG or Craigslist

A machine is worth what someone is willing to pay and it is usually based on condition. Time to put the war of the collectors and retailers to bed. They are one and the same.

On the buyer side good deals go fast. Making an appointment is dangerous i.e. I got a guy coming by to look at it at 4pm vs. I can show up with cash right now.

as a quick buyer I enjoy getting to "the deal" first. Cash in hand wins again.

I'd like to know where this 'price standard' you speak of comes from.

The same reason a car collector can ask more than a used car dealer. Unfortunately, many used cars dealers simply wash and armor all a beater (shopped) and ask prices higher than market value for it.

Well, I know where I'm at, you could probably buy truck loads of beaten up EM's for $300 bucks a pop (maybe not truck loads, but I've been offered at least 5 in the past 6 months). But try and find a TZ for less than 4.5 K around these parts. You'll be waiting a long time.

So, I don't think there is a hard and fast rule for pin pricing, or, as you say, a standard pricing. It's all relative. Location, condition, title, etc. Supply and demand.

Dealer's have pins priced too high? They don't sell any and go out of business. Dealers have pins priced too high? They sell a boat load and laugh all they way to the bank. In our society, good on em. That's capitalism baby!

P.S. Then when that fat cat that bought that Funhouse has to pay some bills, or a fuse blows, we (the collectors) swoop in for the sweet score. Patience is something a pin collector must have. At least that's what I've learned, especially buying pins that I don't like (DE Star Trek, I'm looking at you).

I think your right about the dealer trying to put the squeeze on you. Not cool.

Your post did get me thinking though.

What about the nice old man you referenced?

I feel bad for him. He got the shitty end of the deal. It seems neither you or the other guy were going to give him what the pins were worth, and he probably needed the money more than either of you.

The same reason a car collector can ask more than a used car dealer. Unfortunately, many used cars dealers simply wash and armor all a beater (shopped) and ask prices higher than market value for it.

I have seen some collectors machines and they are not as nice as the machines we shop and I have seen there prices higher than mine.

I believe that your machines are in a different ball field, "GAP". Your pins obviously show that you not only love your job but you love PINBALL. It's the goofy, half-assed "shopped" pins that get under my skin.

If I have to take a "shopped" pin home from a "pro" and then take my "amateur" (well this is actually true) ability and finish or better the job, why would they get to charge your prices?

I understand your need to defend yourself as a dealer but, certainly in my opinion, I ain't talking about yer shop!

Regardless, cheers ya'll. The excess drama around here this week has made me tired. I am hittin it (the bed!!)

It is a little high, it says used

Gap, in all the machines you have sold to pinsiders, has anyone ever accused you of being over priced? Besides, you post pics of your restorations and you do great work. You are worth your prices. Heck, tatman just bought one and he has pretty high standards.

Now that custom zizzle machine on the other hand...

I think businesses like you mention, an autobody shop, are watching shows like Pawn Stars, American Pickers, Auction Hunters, Storage Wars, Auction Kings, and they've decided they can buy and flip pins and make some bucks.

You watch those shows and they buy for as low as they can get it for, they get them fixed up, and they sale at higher price.

I agree with GAP 100%, the retailer/collector class warfare needs to stop.

I've been a 1 pin owner for 3 months and if there's one thing that I wish would and NEEDS to change is an industry wide 1 price guide to rule them all. Forget about going to 3,4,5 sources and doing an average of all the prices for what a pins worth is, and deciding what you should price or pay for a pin. All the biggies in the industry, and the retailers that are doing it right need to get together, have a meeting once a year, and price the pins, and put that price guide out there.

Sale it, both in hardback and in an online PDF.

The car industry has their "kelly blue book", the pinball community NEEDS 1 authority, not two, three or four sources, but ONE.

Maybe I'm being too simple in wanting things to be easier.

This topic is really a hot button item on this board. It's the one issue that get's people riled up, pissed off, and one that has many opinions. This same subject yesterday ended up with name calling and was a real train wreck.

I guess when everything is all said and done some people want to make as much money they can on their sale, some want to get the lowest deal they can, some just want to get what they feel is an honest and good deal. I guess you can't please everyone all the time.

The one thing I can control is what I buy and don't buy, and whether I decide to overpay
for a pin that I REALLY want. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I'm trying to think about what has changed since I first got into the hobby that would have caused such a fundamental shift in attitudes. I think the main catalyst for much of the hostility we are seeing lately is the economy. It's tough out there right now, and people are frustrated. Many are out of work or making less money, and yet pin prices appear to be going higher. As a result, it has caused what I like to refer to as "The Perfect Storm". Buyers want to get their pins a cheap as possible, and sellers want to get as much as they can for them. Obviously, this has always been the case, but there is an air of desperation that wasn't present before. I fear that will only get worse as the economy continues to descend further into the the toilet.

That is not relevant to the issue of guys just buying the pins to flip or excessive prices. In the end, he made a deal and the sames goes for us. If it is too high we can walk. It does suck. We have the right to complain. Dealers have the right to defend their practices. If you don't like reading about it you have the right to stop here and go back to other topics. That is what i am going to do because we all have that ability.

I love America....and pinball!

Hmmm...interesting point of view, let me present a different one. How many pinball machines do you think he sells a month? One? Three? Five maybe at the most? (I know who you are referring to, I would be VERY surprised if he sold even five) If he sold them at "market value" then he could probably sell a lot more, right? Except, where does he get the inventory? It's not like he can just order more $1000 pins from the factory.

So he's balancing his price point with demand and spending time procuring and transporting these machines and cleaning them up and making necessary repairs and operating a store front (he's no longer in the commercial garage) where you and I can go play his pins for free all day if we want to and providing a place where you can have repairs done and he's cutting a profit (on pin sales alone) of what...$1k a month if that?

With all due respect, this is not relevant. Are his pins overpriced? Absolutely. And I have no idea what he is like as a human being but frankly that's not relevant either. He has every right to ask whatever he wants, and you have every right to offer whatever you want to pay. But the guy is trying to run a business, something that I believe helps the pinball community overall via exposure, availability, testing (via free play), repair advice and service calls, etc. He needs to cut a profit and he's entitled to try and maximize that profit, especially considering his limited access to supply.

I believe that you know what those concepts are, but I also think that you may not have completely thought through how those concepts apply to the unique circumstances of the business he is trying to run. You and I both know he's not getting rich doing this so I don't get the grudge...

This hobby has some very nice people in it but I'm afraid that for every "good guy" there's three or four of the guys you mention in this post.