You need to add some options to your poll for it to work.

There are high prices and there are THESE prices. I don't care how well it's restored, a Big Brave is NOT a $5K machine.

Personally, I would look elsewhere, but then I'm kinda cheap.

Fully restored it should be about 1/2 that.

What's your "hands on" ability Mercury? Can you use a few tools? Do you fix things around your house?

You can pick up most EM's for ~$500 (more or less, depending on the pin).

EM's are not terribly difficult to fix.

I would never pay over $700 for an EM.

Even the most popular and/or hard to find Gottlieb Wedgeheads in excellent/100% all around condition should not cost over $2000.00.

Average titles in excellent/100% condition should run $800-$1200.

Projects and pins in average condition should be $0-$700 depending on the title, etc..

Just my opinion and how I judge which pins I buy.

Ken

I would generally agree with this assessment from a "regular guy" perspective. My personal thresholds are comparable or maybe even lower. With that said certain titles or games in exceptional original condition or highly restored examples will go well beyond that $2000 mark. As seen with Joe's Atlantis recently and you'd be very lucky to find even a project TKO for $2000. Games like Kings and Queens, Dimension, Buckaroo and more commonly go for more if the condition merits it.

What's interesting as awarner says Big Brave is not a game that is generally going to command high dollar even in pristine condition. Not to say it isn't fun but isn't one that is on the heavy hitter's collectors checklist of games to acquire. The thing about Pinrescue is they are a retail shop that is not directed at guys like most of us. It's the doctor or lawyer that wants a classic game in great condition that plays flawlessly with some level of customer service. There is a market for these high dollar EMs or Russ wouldn't be in business. For most of us it may seem crazy but there are many types of collectors in this hobby.
Alex

I have seen his work and don't think it's worth the high price. Yes, warrenty makes a difference for some (think Pinball Clinic as well)Look for a fully restored or very nice game from a reputable pinhead and you will get a reliable game. Doing your homework and dealing someone you know/trust is the best route.

Absolutely not - that's like TV Reality show pricing.

Find a guy who restores games in your area that offers service. Even retail pricing, an EM should be well under $1500. Buying from a private seller, you should be expecting $500-$800 typically for a decent machine. Prices higher or lower depending.. but that's the typical band.

To Quote "The Wizard of Oz" - "It's like you could read what I was thinking".

I sold an ugly but fully working Big Brave at the pinball swap meet here in Atlanta a few weeks back for $200. It was painted black and had a decent glass in it - the playfield was worn, plastics warped, but it played great. Maybe something like that would be a good game to start with. Something you could do cosmetics on while you learn the mechanics. They are pretty easy to diagnose and fix. Most fixes are Visible.

Just a thought...

Keep in mind that Craigslist and eBay aren't exactly the barometer of what pinball machines (or anything, for that matter) should sell for. While $5000 for a restored Big Brave does seem rather high, suggestions that most EMs "should" sell for $500 or so is also unreasonable.

$500 is a good price to pay for an "as found" EM that needs work and/or is in average used condition. It's not a reasonable price to expect to pay for a fully shopped and/or fully restored one.

Just my 2¢.

Charlie

I understand your dilemma. Your location has an effect on a pins price and value. Your talent level, as you have indicated, puts a baseline of sorts on your machine.

You used the word restore. Does this mean redoing the cabinet, playfield and such or do you mean it in the way of getting a machine to function?

There is a cheapo EM on eBay by my neighbor, Captain Rick. It has an over-painted cabinet, broken back-glass and doesn't work. Just about the worst case EM you can find -- other than a flood victim. Fully working this game isn't worth much but the fun of playing it.

I have a decent Big Indian that I would sell for $500, but it isn't worth shipping anywhere.

I would recommend a single player, working Gottlieb EM for you. A single player is easiest to maintain and Gottlieb is the undisputed king of EM quality. You can work on the physical attributes of the machine, and learn about the electro-mechanical aspects as a problem comes up. Once an EM is up and working, and is played consistently, they "generally" hold their functionality well.

Someone in your area should have one that is working, is in good condition for a reasonable price and that is priced substantially well below your referenced pinball dealer.

$5k is "rather high" for a Big Brave? It's ludicrous for this and almost every EM. You can go get a new Stern Pro for that price or one of many great DMD games.

And you can find many shopped (not restored) fully working good condition games in the $500 range, but price is relative to title.

Except my post wasn't based on CL/Ebay (which ironically for your post.. tend to ask too much for EMs) but actual prices you would expect to pay buying games from other hobbists at shows, etc. EMs are sub 1k games unless someone has dolled them up to all high hell.. or you are paying retail. Neither of which is anywhere near 5k for a game... shopped or not.

That's a generalization that I see made a lot lately. While it may be true for a lot of Ems, just like SS and DMD games have common titles and desirable titles. If I said all DMD games are sub $2000 I'm sure I'd get a lot of corrective rebuttal. A rough Heat Wave is going to garner more interest than a beautiful Jive Time. Just like guys would tripping all over themselves to buy a smoke or water damaged MM for $3000 versus a mint Shaq.
Alex

Just looked at their website and saw that they sold a Volley for $3,295. Wow. Mine is in very good condition, was just shopped, and came last year from a dealer (not another user) for less than one-fourth of that price.

The games all look good and I'm sure they work great, but they are priced way too high. At the Allentown show my friend picked up a beautiful EM game...near perfect backglass and playfield for $650. The game was fully cleaned and shopped and played perfectly. Save the extra couple grand and drive down to the York show or hold off until Allentown next year. There were be plenty of fully working EM's in great condition for around 1k or less.

Can you name more than a handful that buck that trend that someone is likely to find for sale?

Using your logic.. we shouldn't classify SS games as sub 2k games because there are examples of SOME that can sell for much more? It works both ways... that's why you gauge by the 'meat' of the band.. not the extremes.

Short of people that have touched up and cleared the PF.. (which many EM people don't like anyway) - I've yet to see any 'restoration' that has taken common EMs and bump them from <1K games to justifying 3k-5k games.

When's the last time you saw a Fireball for sub $1000. There's four listed on Mr. Pinball currently with the cheapest being $1500. There's one on Pinside Marketplace for $1250.

Many that you'll rarely if ever see under $1000 include: Kings & Queens, Buckaroo, Cow Poke, Nags, Gusher, Knockout, Sittin' Pretty, Gold Strike, Dimension, Neptune, Niagara, North Star, Majorettes, Pleasure Isle, Lucky Hand, Wonderland. Actually most Gottlieb woodrails, a lot of wedge heads and Williams Pitch and Bat games. There's dozens of others that depending on condition hover around or exceed that price point like Wizard, 4 Million BC, Star Jet, Atlantis, Centigrade 37 etc.

Then there are those more rare or desirable that exceed well beyond that point like Joker Poker, Evel Kneivel, Charlies Angels, Dragonette, Mata Hari and Mermaid.

I'm sure I missed a bunch and I could think of a lot more if I spent the time.

Hey I mean no disrespect. I don't want to argue about it. What you said is mostly true. I just have seen that statement a lot that "all" ems are worth $200 or $500 or sub $1000. Neo said $200 after owning a Bally Circus and Chicago Coin Playtime. I don't think those games are a good barometer to make such a blanket statement. I hate the generalization and it's just not true. There is a lot more diversity among EMs than anything after. Many games are worth $100, Mermaid sells for $10k.
Alex

$5k for an EM is INSANE!!

How many EM pins could I buy for that much?

Kwiki it's all about demand/desire. Would you pay 15k for MM, BBB or CC? (not me)

$500-$999 for a WORKING* EM (with the exception of extremely rare games) - the very top $200 of that ONLY if The playfield has minimal wear, the backglass has minimal (or no) flaking and the cabinet is original and in exemplary condition.

Over $1,000 is still "rarified air" for EMs.

*WORKING also includes "properly functioning" - not "it lights up" as you often see on Craig's List LOL

I feel like Pinrescue aims to serve a clientele different than Pin collectors - but alternately a market of people who seek to own ONE quality machine and have it be a novelty showpiece in their home (as opposed to being one of a "lineup" in a gameroom) - and they offer the white glove treatment and warranty that comes with that. That's how I perceive the business model - and nothing wrong with it if they are getting the sales (which they same to be).

Bottom line - I do not feel like WE (pinsiders) are their market.

It's all about perceived value.

In many years time working 60's Gottliebs will be antiques and should command a premium, if people want to own them.

I think paying $10k for a second hand Tron LE that isn't great build quality is way more insane than spending a few thousand on a top quality EM, with great artwork, real backglass etc.

Still, we all like different things!

I think that's exactly right. This hobby appeals to many different types that extend well beyond the enthusiasts in the forums. My only frustration is when Craigslist sellers find that $4000 Road Race on Pinrescue and assume their neglected game has to be worth at least half of that.
Alex

At their prices, definitely not.

Alex you hit the nail on the head. I think we all feel that way. Retailers like this, are overinflating pin prices (Ebay follows suit too) and has trickled down to Craigslist now. I have had several 'deals' lately fall thru probably due to the owner suddenly thinking they can get much more than a 'project' price. I love the unreturned emails and never getting call backs (sadly,even from some Pinsiders). I am not a flipper who does a quick wipe down (shop job) ask anyone who has seen or purchased a game from me. My goal is to bring a game back to near new condition and play that way. I don't try to make a killing on my restorations, but do have to cover my costs. I want these games to be enjoyed for another 30-40 years!

we all know to disregard Neo's interpretation of game values.. that's a given since he joined RGP Certainly not all games are the same price.. but much of what you listed are examples of why one game should be worth more than another. Say why is one worth 500 while another might be worth 1000 or 1500. The other examples you list are really the extreme 5%'ers... and that's what I mean by saying we don't redefine our overall generalizations of values based on the extremes (high or low). We don't define our impression of SS values based on Raven... anymore than we define our impression of EMs based on Mermaid

No need to get worked up by guidance about the 95% of game values... because the uninformed buyer is unlikely to come across that rare game anyway.

Pinrescue is a high-end restorer. They also have a brick and mortar business with overhead, employees, etc.. Fabulous Fantasies comes to mind also. For the person who has the money and wants a game that looks new and plays new this may be for them. For the other 95% of us including me I can't afford it. I keep looking for my $300 - $400 Gottlieb em's to shop out myself. I'll pay more for higher priced titles.

I don't see any problem with PinRescue. I hope they do a good business and continue as long as they wish. I think the vast majority of us here know how to restore and maintain a pin ourselves so those aren't our market.
However there's a lot of people who can't tell you which way to turn a screw, let alone figure out complicated mechanics and circuitry. This is a good option for them and I'm sure Pinrescue provides a good service.

Steve, while you might think these 'turnkey retailers' pose no threat to our hobby, they hyper inflate prices. If you lived up here in the northeast, you would notice there are no reasonably priced unshopped/project games advertised anymore.

I agree with Steve but also can see how price inflation is a problem... but really

East coast = population density = demand. Ever looked at the price of a 3500 sq ft home in the middle of Montana and compared that to a 1000 sq ft apartment (trashed POS) in NYC... yeah. Apt is probably going to run you more every month. Fair? Not going to change.

- The prices you see for games from established business with a reputation- providing a fully shopped guaranteed game are not or should not relate to the price you pay at a garage sale, or even to the price you could sell an equally well shopped and restored game. And why should they. Have you ever looked at the price of a used Acura/Lexus/BMW that is a "certified" used car. Its easily 5 K higher than the price you would pay from someone selling arguably an identical vehicle out of their home. DIfferent people value different things- I wish I could get the dealer certified price for my car, but I am not a dealer and thus the people looking at my car are not in any way going to be the same individuals shopping at my local lexus dealer. This is true for just about anything you can buy. If you have the money its your decision as to what constitutes "value".

If you want an EM that looks like a fully restored shopped pin and want someone to run over to your house the minute something stops working... well, either pay the going rate at a meet or swap, and then either fix it yourself when something stops working or pay the 200-400 dollar shop fee (every time) when you call a good repair person into your home. Or, just pay it all at once and get one with a guarantee.

Up to you- I cannot afford to get one with a guarantee but I can tell you, as I get a bit older (happens to us all) and busier with work, family etc etc, I am starting to place more and more value on having things that I do NOT have to deal with when they break. So I can absolutely see how/why some business owners are able to command and receive top dollar for a nice EM.

One last thing, 30 hours on an EM will get you new rubber, shopped switches, probably some new or rebuilt flippers and bumpers, new sleeves in all the right places etc.. and maybe a little bit of a restore on perhaps a cabinet that is scratched but there is no way your going to end up taking a POS play field up to a fabulous looking and playing game in that time- and forget about clear coat, so my guess is that many of the pins sold for high dollars have a correspondingly large amount of time in them. Labor is PRICEY!

Think of a reasonable hourly rate to pay someone (lets put it at 20 bucks/hr) now multiply by 30++ add in parts, the cost of the game in the first place, some profit, some rent, the service being free... the tools required... it adds up very very very fast. If you want to buy all that stuff, learn how to use it, deal with doing things 2 and 3 times to get them perfect, then your not their customer and both of you are happy with that arrangement.

There is no harm in this except for uninformed people. If they think they can sell a game at retail prices.. the market will tell them if they are right or not. People are free to sell a game for whatever they want.. that doesn't mean people are obligated to buy it at that price.

As a buyer you are free to tell them the difference between retail, restored vs 'as is', warranty vs none, etc in why a retail price is what it is.. vs what they are offering. But no one should ever think the retail guys are 'hurting' others.

If people are not advertising low priced games anymore.. they are getting the money they are asking or the game would be relisted. That's the market at work.

Does anyone know if Russ at Pinrescue actually posts the price he sold the game for or does he just write "sold" over the top of his asking price? I think I've heard before that he just notes that it was sold and doesn't actually post what it sold for.

Whenever anyone has a game for sale and they use the "but the pinrescue site says it's worth $XXXXX" I say, give them a call and ask them how much they'd give you for your game. I mean, if it's worth so much restored surely they'll give you a good price for your beater as there's money be made, right?

Dave

He does list the original ad and asking price for many of the sold games. I'm not sure how much negotiation happens though on these sold machines. Just because an ad says $4500 we don't know what the out the door price really was.
http://www.pinrescue.com

Alex

Or pinrescue is willing to bring the games and likes the free advertising...

Pin Rescue sells well over 100 games per year and his customers are for the most part, extremely happy. Especially the locals that get in-home service are extremely pleased. Same goes for the Pinball Clinic with the newer games. Yes, prices are higher from these guys without a doubt. It's more about not getting your own hands dirty or having a desire to learn to fix pinball machines. It's having a turn-key game that has been properly reconditioned delivered into your home and having someone to call and take care of it if a problem should arise. There is a cost associated with this type of service.

I agree with all view points here to some degree. I'm glad we can discuss this without personal attacks, etc. as has happened on some other forums. I'm sorry if this topic has degenerated somewhat into the some old debate about pin price inflation. When someone posts a price on the internet that is ten times higher than what an average game would sell for there are ripples that affect the entire market. As pointed out, an uninformed seller will now judge their tired old unplayable game to be worth much more due to their 'research' on the web. I don't see a solution for pinball hobbiest of modest means to stay in the hobby without having to shell out much more cash. I know this topic has been around for awhile as it relates to modern games maybe we are seeing the ripples from that price explosion? I feel there has been a resurgence in pinball's popularity of late as well, due in some part to new game makers as well as many baby boomers reaching the age where they have more disposable income and long for the nostagia of their youth. We see it in classic cars, and other collectables. There are only a limited number of El Dorados, Fireballs, and Star-Jets out there-esp. still in the wild. I guess it's inevitable that they will become harder to find and more expensive.

This is actually none of our business. Just sayin'.

This meaning nothing. The seller can think something is worth a million dollars.. unless someone else does too.. he won't sell it at that price and either sit on it.. or change his price.

The 'uninformed sellers' trying to sell at too high of prices soon learn of their mistake when no one wants to buy their stuff! They either adapt.. or don't sell.

Asking prices mean NOTHING - what the sellers are willing to pay is what dictates the market... because buyers aren't obligated to buy.

True, it is none of our business but I think it's also a bit misleading if you're going to imply that the price listed is the price it actually sold for, which I don't think is the case. It would be better to lead people to believe that a game actually sold for the ridiculous asking price versus the semi-ridiculous selling price. However, as previously indicated, a game is worth what someone is willing to pay for it - nothing more, nothing less.

Dave

I paid for 3 machines from Fabulous Fantasies back in the late 90's and have seen Bob Borden out of Pennsylvania's restorations first hand. I paid 3k for a 65 Bank-A-Ball, 3k for a King of Diamonds and 4200 for a 72 Fireball (in the late 90's). All three machines were cherry picked with perfect back glasses and perfect playfields. Every single part of the machine that was metal was chromed out or restored to new. Plastics were not chipped, broken or scratched and were originals. Every mechanic was cleaned polished and restored to play like new. Every time I bought one of these machines it felt like I was unboxing the machine in the year they were made. I am not rich by any means but I am extremely picky about condition of machines and willing to save for half a year to get something I really want that is 3-5k. I hate planking and cupped inserts. I hate back glasses with flaking. I hate cabs that are faded etc. But I guess I am in the 5% and I am willing to pay the top dollar for an EM that is blinged out. I am not a huge fan of SS or DMD. There is a title here and there that I like but I have a love and a passion for EMs. Give me that '63 Slick Chick for 4k that looks like you could eat off of it. Yes I'll take that '75 El Dorado or Atlantis for 2500-3k that looks like somebody pampered it for 35+ years. Have you ever gone to a pinball show and was just amazed by one certain EM title either original or fully restored that made you say "Holy $&*% I wish that was mine to show off"

Now on the other hand I am looking at Pin rescues prices and 5k for Big Brave is f'ing laughable. 4k for a "Road Race" just makes me want to puke. That is beyond high end prices for those machines. They must be hard pressed to keep in stock top 20 Gottlieb EM's that people actually want. 3795 was steep for an El Dorado but the machine looked perfect. Maybe 3000k tops but they are a brick and mortar so it doesn't seem too far off.

Nimbus, after I posted last, I quickly realized I had left out the important piece of a buyer willing to pay the high price. yes, that is really what I should have included. I also agree there is nothing wrong with wanting or buying a game that is really worth that kind of money. There is a thread on RGP right now about a couple expensive wedgeheads and the guy who restored them. I have seen pictures of the play fields and they do look great and the work shows. Again, my issue is with the other 95% of games that are not or will never be in that catagory. Games that have lots of miles and wear. Those games should have back down to earth value.

That's what's great about this hobby. Everyone does it different. If you're happy, isn't that all that matters?

Frankly I've never been particularly impressed with the EMs at Papa. They work, but with some exceptions they're nothing special...and certainly not 400% of average price special.

I agree the EMs at PAPA are nothing special. In fact, i would have to say they generally feel pretty neglected. I think people are very overwhelmed with the solidstate stuff that the EMs generally are ignored.

Yet over the last few years i've been going to PAPA this has improved. The first year the new facility was open most of the EMs didn't even work. Now at least they all seem to play decently. cosmetically i didn't notice any great stellar examples that blew me away. But EMs have to be experienced and examined pretty closely there. Again the overwhelming amount of SS games just over shadows the EMs, and i bet most patrons that go to PAPA are there for the SS games.

One interesting thing about Pinrescue is that they don't do playfield touchups or clear coats (at least that was their policy on their website.) They will do a nice cabinet repaint and assorted hardware upgrades, but they don't want to touchup and clearcoat PFs. This may have changed but to charge $3k plus for an EM with a "naked" playfield, without any good cosmetic work, seems hard to justify. I mean even NOS 40 year old playfields need some work from what i've seen.

If nothing else, the inserts shrink and cup......changing the play action......

Yes Pin Rescue is expensive, but if you want a plug and play machine, that has a warranty, it may be worth it. Their machines play and look awesome. I have personally seen and played his machines. Thy are top notch. He also doesn't overdue the machines like Fabulous Fantasies. I prefer machines to be nice originals rather than fully restored. Pinrescue won't repaint an entire machine if it is a really nice example.

I think the warranty thing is overstated. I sell EMs shopped and fully working all the time for $300 to $600. I give a warranty too. And ya know what? I don't have to go back and fix the games. If you do it right at POS (point of sale), you don't have to go back. Now i do have an advantage, i sell only locally. So if there is a problem i just drive over to the guy's house.

Now is my record perfect? hell no. i once sold an EM on ebay to a guy. In shipping, the player stepper unit in the backbox worked loose and the screw that holds it vertical fell out. So the stepper was leaning against the backbox door. This prevented the game from reseting. It was my fault, i often forget to tighten that screw! Then the guy thought the problem was with the Ax relay, and he went and fumbled around with that, making a very simple problem worse. That caused all sort of headaches. I set up a web cam and did a one-on-one with the guy, trying to show him how to fix the Ax relay problem (which he actually caused.) Eventually i had to hire a guy to go out to his house and fix it (took just a few minutes.) *sigh* that's the last long distance EM sale i ever did!

Very nice Clay.

I'm always amazed when someone would pay several thousand dollars for an EM.

Sorry... old thread resurrection but had to get in my 2c after visiting their website.

Yes, typical "bargain EM's" from Craigslist/cousin Bill's garage can still be had in the lower 3-digit $ range. However, what you usually get are cupped inserts, flaky backglasses, scratched cabs, dented doors, de-chromed metal parts, worn and faded playfields with some planking, and everything else in need of some mechanical refurbishment and wood work.

Approximate cost to have a PF professionally hand-restored, clear coated, with new backglass? $1000 isn't too far off the mark.

Professional cab repaint? Factor in at least $500 more.

New plastics, parts, sleeves, lamp sockets, rubbers, balls, bulbs, door, etc.? Another $300, easily. Very easily.

Now consider the time required to methodically go through every switch, stepper, coil, spring, relay, etc. Not enough to "get by" but to fully rebuild/re-rivet/resolder everything back to SOLID electrical function which will function for decades, not just a matter of weeks.

Do the guys at Pinrescue replace all the lamp sockets on a game? I do. It's rather time consuming, but that's how you get maximum shine, again, for decades, not weeks.

How about the legs? Need polishing or replacing? Are the interior mechanisms polished? Bottom board need reinforcement or replacing? New tee-nuts? New power cord? Does it have a working recessed power switch up front? And... and...

A true high-end restoration is a jaw-dropping thing of beauty and a massive time-sink. Unless you do the PF/clear/backglass/wood work/cab repaint yourself... that $400 "bargain" is definitely going well over $2k when done. And that's before counting the time and energy for the rest which will be many long hours if done right.

So... if Pinrescue is taking their games to this level and they also have to pay employees and storefront overhead and provide a warranty with unlimited local service calls... well that's just what it takes to make 'em special and run a business. Fine with me.

Besides, even among "us", I don't see many taking their games to this level anyway. Even at pinball conventions with hundreds of games, only a tiny handful are the beauty queens. The rest are good to pretty good... play decently... and often need a little love. Pinrescue basically allows any newbie with enough green to skip straight to the front of the line in one go. No work, no knowledge, no effort... just *bam* there ya go.

Is Pinrescue "messing up" the marketplace? NO. A significant portion of the purchase price is CONVENIENCE. A dollar figure which will not be recaptured when the pinball machine gets sold again. Guess who will get first crack at the prevailing market price? Why, that would be us.

See? It's all good.