(Topic ID: 290437)

Pinflation or inflation?

By sataneatscheese

7 months ago


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  • 94 posts
  • 50 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by CrazyLevi
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    There are 94 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 7 months ago

    As we all know, the prices of pinball machines have been going up, as they have been continuing to go up for the past 20 or so years. However, I am not sure how much of this is due to pinball being awesome and how much of this is just due to inflation. I have noticed in other similar hobbies, and I’ll use Arcade 1up, that there has been a similar trend. After the first Arcade 1ups came out, many went on clearance for $80. These same clearance games are now going for the price of the newer better games even used, at $350 and up.

    I went to dairy queen yesterday for the first time in forever. I ordered an ice-cream with strawberry topping and was astonished that it came to almost $7.

    Now, I’m not trying to get into the old, “I remember when a loaf of bread was a nickel and didn’t come sliced” with the old timers. What I am saying is that I am seeing inflation in the pinball hobby, in parallel hobbies, and in daily life now. Maybe pinball pricing isn’t crazy, but inflation is and/or soon will be… Maybe pinball is a good “investment”.

    No, this is not a, “the pinball bubble is about to burst” thread, but you are welcome to weigh in Levi.

    #2 7 months ago

    Just take a look at JJP POTC LE prices lately. They keep jumping thousands of dollars in relatively short periods of time.

    Pin prices just keep going up.

    #3 7 months ago

    Whip out your inflation calculators and old for sale ads folks!!

    #4 7 months ago

    .

    #5 7 months ago

    None of the things you mention are necessities (pinball machines, arcade cabinets, ice cream sundaes). So the easiest way to fight that kind of inflation is just not to buy/indulge.

    Necessities like gas & milk aren't at all-time lows, but I don't think current prices are astronomical by any means.

    #6 7 months ago
    Quoted from boustrophedonic:

    Necessities like gas

    Gas is climbing pretty quick though.

    #7 7 months ago

    This isn't rocket science, though I do admire the clever attempt at sneaking another price bubble thread in under the cover of something else! Young minds, fresh ideas!

    Through about 2011, B-list tier WPC games were going still going for $1100 in good shape. All day. And the truth is, prices in the hobby rose very little the first 10 years I was involved (2001-2010), except for a tiny handful of exceptions like MM, which was the single game that incurred most of the "price bubble thread" wrath back then from one-issue voters (people who wanted MM and were desperately convinced the upcoming economic collapse would make it happen).

    Now, these b-list WPC games are minimum 2500 (and that is a rarity), with most surpassing 3,000. You'd be hard pressed to find ANY non-EM used game that hasn't increased in cost by at least 100 percent.

    That's about a 100-300 percent increase across the board. I'm no economist, but I don't think we've experienced 100-300 percent inflation in our economy in 10 years.

    I can't speak for the frozen dairy dessert market, but like I said, while I appreciate your creativity in trying to squeeze another drop of 10 year old rotten milk out of the price bubble carton by calling it orange juice, your theory that pinball has simply experienced "normal inflation" is completely inept.

    #8 7 months ago

    Levi’s out on this one.

    tl;dr Thanks to the runaway Fed, 1 out of 3 dollar bills in your pocket has been printed in the past 12 months.

    Look at the stock market. The dollar is rapidly devaluing to nothing and many “luxury items” are really just stores of value.

    The dollar has BEEN worthless for many years, but it’s taken Covid and printing 30% + percent of all bills in the past 18 months alone for people to finally lose faith in our stupid fiat currency.

    The stock market, luxury items, cryptocurrency and precious metals aren’t going “up” in value. The USD is worthless and the buying power AND faith in it as a global currency has evaporated.

    However, as a consolation to Levi and pin owners, the bubble won’t “burst” the latest stimulus laws about 1099’ing digital payments and the recent changes in how the fed actually reports how much money they print have been setting up for the debut of the Digital Dollar. It’s not a crazy theory, dozens of other countries already have their own digital currency and the US one will roll one out too.

    #9 7 months ago
    Quoted from boustrophedonic:

    None of the things you mention are necessities (pinball machines, arcade cabinets, ice cream sundaes). So the easiest way to fight that kind of inflation is just not to buy/indulge.
    Necessities like gas & milk aren't at all-time lows, but I don't think current prices are astronomical by any means.

    Here's a plot of the price of corn futures in the last year... Soybean futures are following a similar trajectory. I think we will be feeling this impact very soon. And definitely don't look up the M1 charts on money supply

    corn (resized).jpg
    #10 7 months ago

    Lumber prices....

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    #11 7 months ago

    All of you bastids are the problem here. Without all of you hording machines, I could buy them for pennies on the dollar. So please leave the hobby, all of you
    (except the friends I play pinball with, you can stay, and I'll buy the pizza with my savings!).

    23
    #12 7 months ago
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    #13 7 months ago
    Quoted from boustrophedonic:

    ...the easiest way to fight that kind of inflation is just not to buy/indulge.
    ...

    Won't happen.

    Only hobby where competition comes in and prices are off to the races.

    #14 7 months ago

    This is simple supply issue with regard to the USD. The more we print, the less its worth. We've printed an unpresidented 4.5 trillion in the last 12 months alone, diluting its value. Since the USD isn't worth as much, it takes more of it to buy things.

    #15 7 months ago
    Quoted from bigdaddy07:

    This is simple supply issue with regard to the USD. The more we print, the less its worth. We've printed an unpresidented 4.5 trillion in the last 12 months alone, diluting its value. Since the USD isn't worth as much, it takes more of it to buy things.

    Yeah, but it sure helps our export...

    #16 7 months ago

    I may not have the highest IQ, but this graphic is wrong. IQ tests are written to come out with an average of 100, and are modified every few years to make sure of that result. So today, the average IQ is 100. And the average IQ in 2060 will be 100. And by the way, what happens in 2070, because according to the graphic, it isn't going to be anything good. Another pandemic where they just decide not to record anything?

    #17 7 months ago
    Quoted from boustrophedonic:

    None of the things you mention are necessities (pinball machines, arcade cabinets, ice cream sundaes). So the easiest way to fight that kind of inflation is just not to buy/indulge.
    Necessities like gas & milk aren't at all-time lows, but I don't think current prices are astronomical by any means.

    I admire your courage stating that pinball machines are not a necessity on a website devoted to pinball.

    #18 7 months ago
    Quoted from boustrophedonic:

    None of the things you mention are necessities (pinball machines, arcade cabinets, ice cream sundaes). So the easiest way to fight that kind of inflation is just not to buy/indulge.
    Necessities like gas & milk aren't at all-time lows, but I don't think current prices are astronomical by any means.

    Quoted from schwism:

    I admire your courage stating that pinball machines are not a necessity on a website devoted to pinball.

    A picture is worth a thousand words.

    ml (resized).png
    #19 7 months ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    I may not have the highest IQ, but this graphic is wrong. IQ tests are written to come out with an average of 100, and are modified every few years to make sure of that result. So today, the average IQ is 100. And the average IQ in 2060 will be 100. And by the way, what happens in 2070, because according to the graphic, it isn't going to be anything good. Another pandemic where they just decide not to record anything?

    Umm.... huh?

    69449-28227 (resized).jpg
    #20 7 months ago
    Quoted from schwism:

    I admire your courage stating that pinball machines are not a necessity on a website devoted to pinball.

    Quoted from sataneatscheese:

    A picture is worth a thousand words.

    Ok, clearly I stand corrected...

    #21 7 months ago
    Quoted from sataneatscheese:

    I went to dairy queen yesterday for the first time in forever. I ordered an ice-cream with strawberry topping and was astonished that it came to almost $7.

    What is the minimum wage in your area ? $15 an hour around here. And prices have gone up. Especially fast food.

    LTG : )

    #22 7 months ago

    Oh man, ANOTHER pin bubble thread?

    Let the poor horse die in peace.

    #23 7 months ago
    Quoted from Lhyrgoif:

    Oh man, ANOTHER pin bubble thread?
    Let the poor horse die in peace.

    No, it's not a price bubble thread. Even though it is.

    Just because you declare that a price bubble thread isn't a price bubble thread it doesn't make it so!

    Reminds me of that Richard Pryor movie where a bunch of pyramid scheme con men are selling the idea that it's actually a "trapezoid" so it's not a con.

    #24 7 months ago
    Quoted from Lhyrgoif:

    Oh man, ANOTHER pin bubble thread?
    Let the poor horse die in peace.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    No, it's not a price bubble thread. Even though it is.
    Just because you declare that a price bubble thread isn't a price bubble thread it doesn't make it so!
    Reminds me of that Richard Pryor movie where a bunch of pyramid scheme con men are selling the idea that it's actually a "trapezoid" so it's not a con.

    Hold on... I would like to clarify that I do not believe that the bubble is going to "burst" or that the prices are about to "come back to earth".

    #25 7 months ago
    Quoted from sataneatscheese:

    Hold on... I would like to clarify that I do not believe that the bubble is going to "burst" or that the prices are about to "come back to earth".

    At this point I'm borderline insane, and pretty much see all threads as "price bubble" threads.

    #26 7 months ago
    Quoted from sataneatscheese:

    Hold on... I would like to clarify that I do not believe that the bubble is going to "burst" or that the prices are about to "come back to earth".

    Half the people that start a price bubble thread don't think they are; that’s what makes them so dangerous (and completely fucking boring); intent has nothing to do with it.

    #27 7 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Half the people that start a price bubble thread don't think they are; that’s what makes them so dangerous (and completely fucking boring); intent has nothing to do with it.

    Right. The last guy insisted he was doing a thread about the 2008 Housing Crisis.

    #28 7 months ago

    have you seen gas prices lately? I was paying $1.25 per gallon in Tennessee this time last year. We will hit $3.00 per gallon here soon.

    #29 7 months ago
    Quoted from sataneatscheese:

    I have noticed in other similar hobbies, and I’ll use Arcade 1up, that there has been a similar trend. After the first Arcade 1ups came out, many went on clearance for $80. These same clearance games are now going for the price of the newer better games even used, at $350 and up.

    The Arcade 1up scene is bizarre. These are poor, fake repros....yet the scene is treating them as something that’s collectible & something you’d want to fill a room with. They’re laggy IKEA trash. There are better ways to play those classic games...either the real original cabs, or on a MiSTer, MAME, or Pi setup. They’ll ultimately be worth nothing.

    As for pinball, it’s always been very simple. For classic games, they are pieces of commercial equipment built in finite numbers. Unlike video games, there aren’t good alternatives for playing a pinball machine. Collectors tend to get attached to their games and keep them. As more people get into pinball, it takes more money to pry games out of collections. Prices are also affected by new games. If new games of lesser quality & fun factor are now selling for $6k-12.5k, the better classic games rise in price as a reaction.

    #30 7 months ago

    The answer to the thread title is... both!

    I never thought I would pay $8.3K for a single machine, but I did. The combined total of what I spent to purchase my entire collection prior to buying my MBrLE (5 machines) was $8.8K!!!
    Pinbot $750 in '91 (working 100%)
    BOP $950 in '93 (working 100%)
    FG $3500 in '08 (NOB w/250 plays)
    Gtb CP $1100 in '19 (VG condition working 100%)
    SP $2500 in '19 (and not in great shape, needed some work but had colorDMD)
    MBrLE $8300 in '18 but delivered in '19 NIB

    Looking at my Pinbot

    $750 -> $1448 in todays dollars, but prices are $2000 to $3500 and have sold recently for $2200 for a comparable machine today.

    And at Bride

    $950 -> $1729 in todays dollars, but prices are $3000 and up and sold recently for that.

    So yes, inflation has hit the market, but pinflation has too.

    #31 7 months ago

    Someone please start an Official Pinside Pinball Price discussion. It's obvious people want to talk about it so put it all in one place.
    The Fed has been saying they wanted inflation since 2010, now its here and everyone considers it a new concept. Pinball prices are going up because a bunch of idiots started listing machines on eBay at astronomical prices.
    Novices go there to price things, see the listings and assume thats what they go for.
    This rust set in and now everybody tries to jack people for anything pinball.
    There are still a lot of machines not selling, I've been watching a few on craigslist for 2 years, same high-ass price, or price increase.
    It's a conspiracy I tell ya! People (hoarders) holding the majority of machines/projects trying to inflate the value before the big sell.
    No different than people jacking about machine ratings = value.

    #32 7 months ago
    Quoted from phil-lee:

    Someone please start an Official Pinside Pinball Price discussion. It's obvious people want to talk about it so put it all in one place.
    .

    I would back an official Crazy Levi Memorial Price Discussion Thread.

    It has always been obvious - I'm talking back to the RGP days - that people cannot get enough of price discussions. It really is the straw that stirs the drink around here. Instead of our bi-weekly price bubble threads a permenant Price Thread would make great sense.

    #33 7 months ago

    Absolutely everything is getting more expensive at a rapid rate it seems like. I think the barcade thing growing so much has really raised the floor of pricing on pins.

    Stimulus has everything broke person I know consuming shit they couldn't ever afford before.

    Any distributors know the percentage of new pins that end up on route now?

    #34 7 months ago

    I think the real reason prices are out of whack... the industry has shifted from a coin op business model to a collectors market model, and the coin ops model had a disposable element in the mix... once machines were no longer making money, they ditched them, keeping the parts that were still usable and dumpstering the rest. Some machines ended up in the home buyers market, but the vast majority were scrapped. This made non earning machines only worth the usable parts left in them and used pinball machine parts are not worth much. Now days, if a pin is working, it is worth more in the collector market than the sum of its parts and so it maintains it's value in the home market. With NIB prices skyrocketing due to the HUO market exploding, used machine prices have come along for the ride because as a working machine, it's relative worth (to new hobbyists) starts to get closer to the cheapest NIB available machines. They are paying premium prices for machines that no longer have any worth as an earner in an operators lineup, machines like Genesis, and Raven are getting sold for prices that are insane (back in the day, they couldn't give away a Genesis or Raven machine, most going for $250 or less) yet it commands a +$1500 price tag today? I think I would rather get a root canal.

    #36 7 months ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    But I WANT a Totan. I WANT a MM.

    And I wanted a Monster Bash.... so now I have a brand new one at the cost of what I paid for the rest of my collection... thank the pinball gods I at least started collecting back in '91.

    #37 7 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    And I wanted a Monster Bash.... so now I have a brand new one at the cost of what I paid for the rest of my collection... thank the pinball gods I at least started collecting back in '91.

    I started five months ago an I’m up to 17 already

    It’s like buying GameStop 48 hours after the meme took off

    #38 7 months ago
    Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

    The dollar has BEEN worthless for many years, but it’s taken Covid and printing 30% + percent of all bills in the past 18 months alone for people to finally lose faith in our stupid fiat currency.

    Not true one bit. Go back to the crypto thread or check your games for spiders!

    So are pins overpriced or what?! Wait, don't tell me the answer. I'll just look for the next price debate thread. I hope I don't have to wait long.

    #39 7 months ago

    I think I have the answer

    Old guys are cheap and who gives a fuck.

    #40 7 months ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    I started five months ago an I’m up to 17 already

    Wow. Impressive lineup for 5 months...!

    I see you like TOTAN...I owned this beauty for awhile (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fs-or-ft-pmd-brass-totan). One of the nicest examples I've seen...

    #41 7 months ago

    I’ve got all EMs, and today a project pin costs what a working pin sold for 5 years ago.

    #42 7 months ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Wow. Impressive lineup for 5 months...!

    His lineup is ok, but it's his wallet I'm interested in seeing... all dusty, mostly empty, full of cobwebs, high anxiety and crushing regret.

    #43 7 months ago

    Yes, yes, I think we've all figured out pins cost more than they used to by now.

    What's the point of this fuggin' thread again?

    The dedicated "Pricing Thread" can't come fast enough.

    #44 7 months ago

    Just simply.....GREED!!

    #45 7 months ago

    I used to collect different pinball machines...for variety, but that's a noob thing to do.

    I have a new evil plan now.

    I am buying up all the Monster Bashes so that only I have them and can charge whatever I want! Once I have them all, I will sell them for $1 Million Dollars. MWahahahhahahhahahhaha

    ha.

    #46 7 months ago

    I think quite a few people are doing very well during the pandemic. They have secure jobs, financial assets increased, they can refinance the home with better rates.
    Toss in they have more disposable income from not traveling, going out to eat , going to entertainment and sporting events. Since most are at home you are seeing increased prices for house hold items including pinball,
    Work out equipment, bikes, and probably home projects.
    The manufacturers can't keep up with the demand for pinball.

    #47 7 months ago

    This is what buying pins looks like in 2021.

    E17FAB85-E15B-45E6-A00E-9903B172326E (resized).jpeg
    #48 7 months ago
    Quoted from indybru:I think quite a few people are doing very well during the pandemic. They have secure jobs, financial assets increased, they can refinance the home with better rates.
    Toss in they have more disposable income from not traveling, going out to eat , going to entertainment and sporting events. Since most are at home you are seeing increased prices for house hold items including pinball,
    Work out equipment, bikes, and probably home projects.

    You hit the nail right on the head. When 911 happened...WOW 20 years ago. Nobody got on a plane. Many people car traveled and the price of gas went. Others took their travel money and put swimming pools in their backyard. Pool sales went through the roof and pool prices increased. Also many people are probably buying the machines with credit. Some people are spending craZy money during this pandemic. I went to look at jet skis down here in Florida and the dealer laughed and said there is a six month waiting list to purchase one. Also my good friend is a CF moto dealer and his inventory is zero. As soon as inventory comes in the atv’s and utv’s are out the door.

    #49 7 months ago

    Not long ago I actually did some calculations on the appreciation in value of my particular collection over the past 20 years. I used my purchase prices, then estimated current values, then calculated the increase in value if it were in compounding annual percent yield for each machine. Turns out it was just about an average 4-5% a year for the past 20 years. Inflation has been running really low like what, 1% a year? So there you can get a sense for how much is inflation vs pinflation.

    Update: looks like pinflation has been a little higher since I did this a couple years ago. For example I bought a players cond funhouse 20 years ago for $1200 and if that can go for 4-5k today that’s like 6-7% apy

    #50 7 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    His lineup is ok, but it's his wallet I'm interested in seeing... all dusty, mostly empty, full of cobwebs, high anxiety and crushing regret.

    I’m going to need you to come by to buy some alcohol, food and drop some quarters

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