Great writeup, and yes that's the same capsule summary I'd use.

I forgot to mention a nice act of sportsmanship in the next to last A division group on Saturday.

I was playing poorly so I decided to use my headphones (something I usually only do on EMs or if I'm just not feeling it...) while playing Austin Powers. Well, after hitting a few shots on ball 3 I drained, and disgustedly turned and sat down, and no sooner do I hear "You're back!! you're BACK!!" over Thom Yorke in my ears, I jerk back up and leapt to the machine and barely slapped the ball back up into play again. I played decently and scored a few points on the remainder of the ball (apparently, I'd started some Hurry Up which gives a quick ball save? I don't know AP at all) and vaulted up into 2nd place, ahead of the guy who yelled, named Gavin. He had a houseball after me on Ball 3, and I ended up beating him by only 20 mil. He essentially gave me a point in the group, his point. Neither of the other two said a word and it would've been easy for Gavin to stand mute also. I don't know Gavin, but I know he's got a pretty awesome blonde mohawk and is a great sportsman. Thanks again, Gavin!!

That's what pinball competition is all about. I'd hope I would do the same in the same situation.

On the flipside, a friend of mine accidentally plunged someone else's ball in C division, and while he hit the skill shot and then trapped it on the right flipper, apologizing, and offered to pass it off, the girl would not take it and insisted that he get a ZERO. I understand that's the rules, but sometimes sportsmanship should win out in those grey areas of no harm/no foul.

Overall, the sportsmanship was top notch throughout the event, just like everything else.

I had the same thing happen to me on AP and turned 2pts into 3 thanks to one of my competitors. I was paired up with Roy Wils three times and I saved him from playing the wrong persons ball at least twice lol! You owe me Roy!

Let me ask you guys something. When you're playing and everyone is ready to begin on the next machine, would you leave the area for any reason other than an emergency bathroom break? In the last session on Saturday, with a chance at the finals on the line, two of the guys in our group just disappeared for about 5 minutes (I think it was longer but I don't want to exaggerate). One guy went to buy a drink and another to get tokens. I can't decide if its ok or not. If it was gamesmanship, or whatever. But it did bug me at the time. Probably because I'd just gotten a zero and needed a win for a chance at the playoffs in B. I just think that when the sh!t is going down and its time to get it on you don't bail...on the LAST machine to play in the qualifiers.

In one round, my group was the last one playing. Because we ended very late, we only had a few minutes between when we stopped and the start of the next round. There might have been time for a quick bathroom break, but I would have been in trouble if I needed to use the bathroom, get tokens, and get food or water. Before this happened to me, I had a harder time understanding how people couldn't get where they needed to go relatively on time. After that, I gave people more benefit of the doubt.

With very few exceptions, I don't think any players were trying to use delays or other tactics to get into the heads of other players. At least that was my experience.

Glad to hear some people out there were being cool! Sadly I had the opposite experience in one of my groups. I drained out early in a DMD and quickly spun around and walked away out of embarrassment, then looked back over my shoulder to see that my ball had been saved, plunged, and was screaming toward the drain. All of my opponents stood there silently watching it drain with their arms folded. Luckily I was able to lunge back onto the game in time to save it. I know that it's not their job to help me win, so technically I shouldn't be mad, but I also know that in that situation I would (and a couple times over the course of the weekend, did) yell out "ball save!"

For whatever reason it seemed like total hit and miss -- some of my groups were super friendly and helpful to each other, discussing rules, praising each others' play, etc, while others were completely cold and awful. I'd say the good definitely outnumbered the bad overall, which is encouraging, but man it sucked whenever one of those lousy groups came along.

Agreed.
I got stuck in a couple groups with people who were too serious for their own good.
Relax a little, it's only pinball!

Actually, maybe Bowen can chime in on this, but I am pretty sure that would fall under the "Coaching" rule had they done so and themselves would risk a 0.

Bullshit. That's not coaching. We told people all the time that their ball was saved. Most of us will.

I got scolded for notifying my opponent of a ball save during the playoffs. Another guy in our group yelled "NO COACHING!!" at me and gave me a shitty look. I didn't even think before speaking up as it's just one of those immediate reflex things after years of playing casual games with friends.

If I remember correctly, during the PAPA 15 playoffs Bowen was walking away from a game and the whole crowd yelled about a ball save and he ran back to the game. I can't remember if he managed to keep it in play or not.

I wouldn't consider it "coaching" as the rules prevent, but just good sportsmanship. I think it falls in the same category as notifying a player if they were about to play out of turn. Would that be considered coaching too? Either way, I can't imagine that I'd be able to break the habit of helping out my fellow competitors walking away from a ball save even if it cost me my own game.

Agreed, I witnessed a lot of people notifying others of ball saves and was the recipient of a reminder myself. I even had a few people in my groups ask what the skill shot was. Though I would never ask this question and I'm not going to tell someone my strategy for playing a game, I don't think small, considerate things like this matter in the long run. I think Pinburgh is a far more laid back tournament than PAPA where people are playing a lot of unfamiliar machines. Since we can't have access to all of these machines year round, I don't see the harm in helping another person out with something so minute and simple. Whether it's right or wrong, I'll take the good karma.

I'd like to also to say what a great experience I had at Pinburgh this year. It was my first event there. I had a lot of fun and got to see some outstanding play.

This is from the official rules. I guess it is pretty open to interpretation:

" Spectators and other players must refrain from commenting on play in any way that affects the current player. "

I would hate to win a match because my opponent didn't realize their ball wasn't over, kind of a cheesy win.

Stay on your machine until your bonus count is done. Simple. Is it courteous to yell "ball save" when someone walks away? I guess, but I don't feel that it's ignorant not to.

With 400 players playing dozens of games a day, it's going to happen.

It's good sportsmanship. You can't rule against good sportsmanship.

On the other side, pinball has always attracted quirky folks. No surprise that some wouldn't alert others that their ball is still in play. I'm still glad those folks show up and compete though. Good or bad, loners or quiet groups have always been a part of the hobby. There are no rules preventing anti-social folks from participating. Talking (helping another player) is not required in pinball.

Awesome thread. Nice work to all that participated and posted.

Exactly. In my first match of the competition I stopped another player from plunging my ball.
It took me a split second to decide; I couldn't let him do it.
He later thanked me and we became friends, chcking in on each others progress.
That's what it's all about for me. The experience, the people, and most importantly THE GAMES.

Another rule I learned in the semi-finals:

If you are about to roll an EM, call the scorekeeper.
I was craping myself when I was scored a 0 because the scorekeeper (who did an amazing job btw) didn't see me flip it. I would have been eliminated had my opponents not all agreed that I flipped it.

Now I know.

I got sidetracked by Molly's (of pins + needles) mum. I think I know more about her and her sister that someone who isnt a spouse should. She did somehow manage to question me like the inquisition.. I think she wanted to make the bus driver to another lap so she could keep asking me stuff ^_^ she is a very proud mama!

the flipside, I ran into a dad who was berating his young kid on his playing on the friday morning!

you get to see the good and the bad.

The worst thing that happened in my groups was a player played out of turn... twice in two separate groups! Although, clearly they broke the rules, they were sort of drawn down the path.

In both cases, we had to play a game that was single player only. In the next game, the winner of the single-only game played first and mistakenly played player 2. Insta-DQ. The first time it happened was with Sanjay Shah. The second time was some german guy. I really felt bad for them.

I know the games are single play only in most cases to prevent lock stealing but I think lock steals are part of the strategy and player order selection.

IJ has weird ball saves and a guy in my group walked away from one.

I can't speak for PAPA, but at one of my tournaments a player did try to argue that other players alerting a walk-away player to a ball save (which subsequently caused the loss of the complaining player) should have resulted in a DQ of the alerting players. I can certainly see the rationale of it, because those alerting players were essentially spectators when not playing.

Alerting someone about a ball save, or if they're about to plunge out of turn, is simply good sportsmanship. It's not coaching. They aren't telling you where to shoot for lock, how to 10x bonus, etc.

Any tourney which disqualifies a player for alerting another player of a ball save is acting incorrectly, period. As someone said, it happened at PAPA with Bowen on TZ, and he was too far away so he threw his hat trying to hit the flipper button, Lol. It happened at this past Pinburgh on many occasions, as you can read and it's considered nothing but great sportsmanship, says I.

Hmmm yeah I agree with Keith to a point however maybe the rules could be changed in this case? I found that I was far more disadvantaged when it came to not knowing the games and there were guys that told me they got coached on how to play games that they did not know... I know that this cant be policed but having someone get told how to play a game and what to go for was a far greater benefit than someone getting told that their ball was saved...

I am not saying I agree to this for the record. Just pointing out that if some shady person complains then by the official rulebook (Bowen enforced every rule by the book this year) they could be DQ'd. I certainly wouldn't want to be punished for being a good sport. I think the rule needs some tweaking to allow it.

I had an incident a couple years ago where someone shoved a machine into the next machine. they tried to correct it before it kicked out another ball but ended up tilting through to the next player. We all agreed to let it go and that player got a new ball. But if we played by the rule that is written that person would be DQ'd. Most players are cool and sportsmanlike but it just takes one...

I got fucked by a 2-player game where Player 1 mistakenly started a one-player game. He drained Ball 1 and walked away. I plunged and began to play, only to notice that I was playing HIS Ball 2. I got fucked by a stupid rule or bad call, not sure which. Had to take a 0.

As big as Pinburgh has become, late ballsaver alerts and playing out of turn alerts should be encouraged. It's inevitable that those things will happen with 400 players playing that many games. Encourage good sportsmanship.

No game-specific coaching near the game period though. While telling a noob what the skill shot is seems like good sportsmanship or good manners, that's a step further than telling a player they got a late ball saver IMO. Just ball savers and order. If a noob asks for help, tell them to read or google the instruction card (quickly).

I believe as long as that player is not actually playing they can be coached per the Pinburgh rules.

One of these years I have to make a pilgrimage to Pinburgh!

Sucks that the tips got stolen. Someone deserves a swift kick in the nuts. I wasn't even there, but I would send the guy $5 to help make up for what one among us took. Pinball people are some nasty MF'er to have to clean up after!

Wow, that seems ridiculous. I'm surprised he didn't get the 0 for only putting up one player?

Yeah its a little complicated... Lets say I am playing Independence Day with another player who has never played the game before. I ask someone whats the best way to play this and they go, ok shoot the left loop over and over until you build up a massive hurry up score then shoot the bank of 3 tragets to start hurry up and collect it from the left loop. The player I am playing with never gets this info and goes for MB. I dont think they would be too happy that they did not get to find out how to play the game as I did....

I think in future (this might be a big ask) but to have rule and strategy sheets made for each game... That way its an even playing field for all players. These can be made prior to the comp starting so that all players can read them without having to play the game before hand... or learn them whilst playing in the comp.

Either way the comp was awesome and it was a great way to meet people.

my worst zero came from an EM, I must have rattled it just enough. my ball drained with no tilt, score rattled up, then the action of ejecting the new ball onto the playfield caused a tilt and I had to take a zero grrr 2 player EM's...

Just now looking, it says no coaching while playing, but nothing else about coaching.

The 30 second rule sounds perfect for this. Sounds like you can legally get a quick strategy (or skill shot) from someone, but it has to be in 30 seconds or less if you're up. Gives a person a chance on an unknown game and also keeps things moving.

"No player may delay their game for more than 30 seconds, except to await a ruling or resolution of an environmental inconvenience."

http://papa.org/pinburgh2013/rules.php

Pinburgh sounds like an awesome event. I had planned to go there this year, but I got into IFPA10 in Germany so had to choose one or the other. One can't attend every event when one lives at the bottom of the planet

RGR was kind enough to post video and pics on Aussie Arcade site, so we could all see what was going on. And I watched the live feed of the finals on Geekgamer.

Congrats to Bowen and his team for organizing a great event. Hope to be there next year.

Good to see a thread on playing pinball.

Now ... Back to the usual Pinside threads on WOZ METALLICA POWDERCOATING and MODS

Hahaha

rd.

anyone that complains about telling another player his ball is saved, is being a little bitch. Plain and simple. If your going to be that nitpicky about good sportsmanship, you don't belong in a tournament circuit of any kind. Most of us that do tournaments all the time, know each other well, as we see the same people everywhere at all the tournaments. It's just good playing. If you feel you need to win due to fine technicalities like that, you not good enough to play.

I agree, but if there's big money on the line and it's between myself and that guy, I would be a little miffed if "the crowd" or other players alerted the guy and got beat because of it. Ultimately, it IS the player's responsibility to stay till the ball is done. I dunno, it's sort of a moral grey area.

I will say this - in the past, if a player obviously didn't know the game, I would give them tips. Wow, have I gotten hosed on that (and hosed others who gave me tips). Now I do the tips after our game.

Similar thing happened two years ago at Pinburgh. A player started only a one player game. We noticed it after he drained and called for a ruling and the rule (from Bowen) was that the player plays through and then the other players play a 3-player game. I wasn't happy about it at the time but the rules are the rules.

Your particular situation is especially sucky because you played out of turn only because of someone else's screw-up.

There's a player in my area who I could totally see deliberately abuse this situation, both to get a game by himself and also in the hopes an unsuspecting player would step up and auto-DQ himself.

When I ran PPE 2011, I printed the rules out on 11x17 paper and pinned them up outside the tournament room because I knew these kinds of 'iffy' situations could happen. Several times during the tournament I had the free 'out' of saying, "the rules are posted right outside the door - you should have known better."

Yes, and as there's no practical way to police otherwise, the only fair thing is to allow it.

Our group from the bay area had a website set up to feed info into about how banks were playing from players who had already played those banks, along with basic strategy, gotchas, etc.

And I still played like crap, so there's that.

Lol would have been nice to know that

Well, you should be a nicer guy on Pinside, right? hahaha

Lol yeah I guess...

Get in where you fit in. It was cool meeting you and glad you did alright.

Yeah was good meeting some guys off pinside. Interesting tho how some of the huge posters on this forum were not there.

i was there. Floating around the bottom of C division pretty much the entire time.

Anyone in particular? hahaha.

Competing takes balls. You put your game and yourself on the line and I respect anyone who does.

I did, with disastrous results I can honestly say. But, that's just a reason to keep practicing and get better.

Hmmm like the top 10 posters/ thumbs up... Hehe they could have been there, but I guess there was no way of knowing

I was there, tearin' it up in D. Also does anybody remember me threatining to rape them sat. night?

Your room mates?

Some talk, others do.

You want to share a room next year Neo?

sure. We had 3 this year. What's a few more.

For my Gencon week, we have 15-20 people in 2 combined rooms. It's the presidential suite but still.

That is because it's not a "pimp my pinball" competition

I wonder who THAT player is....

I'm going to agree with this. Players could affect others' outcomes through this. P1 does something that helps P2; in the case of Gavin it ended up totally selfless, but what if P2 passes P3 instead? It's not ignorant not to do it.

In the case of the PAPA 15 finals, it was a manual-plunge ball saver, so there wasn't really a time limit to go back and save the ball. If it had been an autoplunged ball save, and I blew it, I wouldn't expect to be bailed out by an opponent or by the crowd, and I'd expect others to be pissed if I had. We'll look at the coaching rule: I wouldn't want to DQ a player for reflexively shouting about someone else's ball save.

(Also, a shout out to Karl DeAngelo who saved my bacon at Portland, alerting me that I was about to play out of turn. Was he coaching too?! Oh noes!)

A brief story: I'm playing Stefan Karlhuber in the round of 16 at IFPA6 in London. He's last player, last ball on Judge Dredd and beats down a mode or two. He's only 5 million behind me... basically he just has to drain and he wins. But the ball heads toward the center drain, he tries to save it, TILT. People were watching, and any of them could easily have coached him to victory; nobody did. The no-coaching rule is pretty important. Players need to make their own decisions.

To mechslave: your story is much funnier than what actually happened. Any actual thrown hats were supposed to be funny...

To RGR: players getting "coached" about rules while they're not playing is definitely allowed. Watch more videos! Get more social! Ask around, people will generally give you good advice. We have no plans to post strategy guides, but pinball.org/videos might be a good bookmark...

To phishrace: What you're describing would not be allowed. If a player is on the machine, during their turn, no coaching is allowed.

To Jonny: general feedback seems to favor no longer playing games as single-player-only, since it runs counter to the "group play" concept. There's feedback in both directions, some people wanting more (or even ALL) games to be single player, but the majority opinion appears to be in favor of no single-player-only unless the game is built that way (Target Pool).

To Greg: you definitely didn't get "fucked by a bad call" because we used the rules as written. That doesn't mean it's a good rule. What would you suggest the rule should be next time? We're open to options, but the clear-cut rule for 2011-13 has been that it's the player's responsibility to know whose turn it is. If it's not your turn and you play, you lose. It was one of the two rules we emphasized at the opening. FYI this happened a total of six times in the tournament, where P1 mistakenly fired a one-player game and P2 was disqualified for playing P1's second ball. What's supposed to happen is P1 is stuck playing out the entire game. There seems to be a suggestion here that P1 should take a DQ. Is that the suggestion, or is there something else we can do?

Thanks everyone for caring, for attending, and for having fun. We'll keep improving.