Pinburgh 2016 in-depth impressions

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8

#1 7 years ago

OP

BMB

zsciaeount

Pinside member

Los Angeles, CA

12y 56,900 566 29 37

Well, my Pinburgh dream ended at the close of qualifying, but I still had a blast and wanted to share my thoughts on the event.

This was my first Pinburgh outside of PAPA HQ, and after reading some comments about last year, I have to admit, I was a bit nervous. Would it be too loud? Would the games suffer from being trucked across town? Were there too many people playing? Would I miss the tailgating in the PAPA HQ parking lot?

The answer is no, no, no, and a little.

Let me just say one thing straight away: what Mark Steinman, Doug Polka, Bowen Kerins, and the entire PAPA crew have done is nothing short of astonishing. To have that many games and that many players, plus a massive set of public play pins and video games--and not have it simply implode--is quite a feat.

If you're worried about all this video game stuff being a distraction, it helps to know that Pinburgh is pretty well-shielded from all of the commotion on the other side. The games in the competition are all nicely spaced, and even though the floors and ceilings are bare, I didn't think it was any louder than PAPA HQ... in fact, I thought it was actually a bit quieter. There were a few times when some annoying noise came from the other side, including some a-hole on a cart that kept blowing his horn while we were trying to play.

The machines are all dialed in, and there are tons of techs on hand to fix an issue relatively quickly. We had to ring them a few times, but the fix was never more than a few minutes away. Overall, the games are in tip-top shape, and the selection is very eclectic. For most players, seeing an EM and 2 solid state games can be daunting, and any relief you'd feel stepping up to a DMD is quickly dashed by the realization that the game is set up to be PAPA hard. But, that's Pinburgh.

The seeding and scoring software seems to be much improved this year. Matches are scored fairly quickly, and new banks are posted well ahead of time. Having everything on an app keeps the number of announcements to a minimum. In fact, I don't recall the PA ever being used while we were in play.

Having increased the players to 700, I guess one could be concerned that there would be a larger proportion of players with poor etiquette, but that wasn't the case for the most part. It seems that nearly everyone who played had complete respect for other players, and refrained from breaking eyelines and kept outbursts to a minimum. People also showed up pretty much on time and played their turns quickly. Having more players certainly didn't bog the system down.

While I do miss tailgating in the PAPA parking lot, the tradeoff is a much bigger public floor, with all of the games on free play (no more tokens necessary!). There's also several restaurants in the area, and even a bar, so you don't have to run to some seedy bar down the block to get carry-out like you do at PAPA HQ, and you aren't forced to either leave the area completely or subsist on concession stand food. That said, the PAPA parking lot seemed to breed a bit more camaraderie between rounds, since it was literally the only place to go, rather than having a massive show floor of free-to-play games and vendors.

I do have a few gripes and some suggestions for improvement:

1) Since the Pinburgh website is the main source for groups and standings, and since no one has a computer with them, they should make the website a bit more mobile-friendly. Adding a search feature to the top of the page would help, and making it easier to click on your name without zooming all the way in and cropping out all the useful data would be nice.

2) The big break in the day is a bit odd... it's too late for lunch and a bit too early for dinner. I suppose this is so we aren't out during the lunch rush and have more time, but it would be nice to have more time near lunch to grab a quick bite without feeling rushed.

3) I thought it'd be nice to have our names on our badges. In talking with Bowen, this was a purposeful omission, since it requires you to introduce yourselves. But, sometimes, you just get so much mental fatigue that it's hard to keep people straight, and at around the third round, people start making errors on the score sheet. That said, I totally get why they did that, and I think they're right. Maybe if we just had our initials on there... we'd still have to introduce ourselves, but a quick glance at a badge could remind you who is who, using the score sheet as a reference

4) The floors are concrete slab, and there is a lot of standing. I stand for a living, wearing 40lbs of lead, so I thought I had pretty good stamina, but by the time tiebreakers rolled around on day 2, my body was on fire. Though I'm sure it'd be expensive, it would be nice to have the competition area covered in a low-pile carpet, like PAPA HQ. Another advantage of this would be that they wouldn't have to put the legs on rubber feet. I found that having the games on rubber feet meant that there was zero give. The net effect was that tilts seemed way more sensitive because the machines didn't slide.

5) Having more sitting areas near the games would be nice to prevent pain and fatigue, maybe even a line of benches in the middle of the rows. There's certainly enough space to accommodate this.

6) The bathrooms are a bit far away, and are only on one side of the room. This isn't PAPA's fault, but I wish the convention center had some bathrooms closer.

7) The entrance is all the way at the other end of the show floor. From front door downstairs to the bank is a couple hundred yards. It'd be nice for Pinburgh players to have a separate and more direct entrance (restricted to players only).

8 ) The room could be a few degrees cooler

9) It'd be nice to have some food trucks outside. The on-premise food is expensive and pretty terrible. It'd be nice to have some vendors outside for snacks between rounds, especially if the break schedule remains the same. This year, the only outside vendors were selling desserts and carnival food.

10) Provide more advance warning about the full calendar. A few events were added very late in the schedule, and because my travel plans were solidified several months ago, and didn't account for them, I will be missing out.

11) Invent a time machine that lets me fast-forward life until the next Pinburgh

This is about as harshly critical as I can be. ReplayFX and this modern incarnation of Pinburgh are really fantastic, and the folks at PAPA have knocked it out of the park. If you're on the fence, don't be. This is the best event of the year.

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#2 7 years ago

OP

BMB

zsciaeount

Pinside member

Los Angeles, CA

12y 56,900 566 29 37

I should also say that having the viewing area for the A finals was nice. It certainly was a lot more comfortable and accessible than the viewing area at PAPA.

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#3 7 years ago

???

silver_spinner

AR Gaming Rentals (MI)

11y 77,550 3,046

how all of the show organizers pull it off is simply amazing. top notch supreme over the top event by far.
it's dazzling, amazing and hard to intake all of it. well structured and professional.

3 suggestions i have are as follows: im probably way off and could be alone on these thoughts, but they have crossed my mind.

1) let us practice on the pinburgh games for a nice time length prior to the event start or in between rounds or dinner break times.
Even wed night somehow or 9am to noon then start round 1 on thursday. it takes some people a few times on a game to learn bounces, tilt settings, etc. esp on games not very familiar with or games that are 1 player em tilt ends game.
when you are first in a group on an em 1 player (esp one where tilt ends game) and have to play the game through alone, its kinda unfair IMO. everyone else learns from your mistakes and the tilt variance. then they score better when they play their full game.

2) any games that allow steeling locks need to be played as one player games or not used in the tourney at all.

3) FOR those of us who are going for pinburgh only and already have to pay for parking, hotel, entry fee for pinburgh.
The having to pay to get into the "show" is what bothers me. $100 basically for the full event pass and if you have other family members playing in pinburgh, the price is obviously $100 X the number of your family members as well.
what if we only are going to pinburgh to play in pinburgh and dont want to partake in the free play area or other show activities? Isn't there a way pinburgh can just have its own area and entrance and be separate? on thurs and fri and even sat (if qualified), we really don't have much extra time or remaining energy to do any other thing than pinburgh anyhow.

we could still pay to play the games in pinburgh. The actual pinburgh tourney games could be on coin play like they were a few years back, or , we as players could pay a "fee" that would virtually cover coin drop up front if coin drop wasn't an option.

10 rounds 4 games per round. em= 25 cents, new dmd 75 cents (or $1), the other 2 bank games (ss, older dmd) 50 cents each. so per round is $2ish per person to play the 4 games. so $20 ish total for all 10 rounds.

if you make the playoffs, an additional fee could be collected per player.
that is much cheaper than $100 for the event pass per person.

in addition, if a pinburgh player DID want to attend the replay fx freeplay area and other things the venue has to offer, they can pay an added fee to attend the actual "show".

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#4 7 years ago

OP

BMB

zsciaeount

Pinside member

Los Angeles, CA

12y 56,900 566 29 37

I'm with you about lock-stealing games. I am also not a fan of having RoboCop in the tournament, if only because the "skill shot" is anything but. The ball gets delivered to the right rollover no matter how you plunge, and the lit lane for the shot isn't player-determined. In my round, my skill shot was always lit at the left rollover, meaning I got nothing, but the guy who won had the right lane lit for all three of his balls. I lit the spinner and ripped it, but he still won by 200,000 points, and 600,000 came from his skill shots. When every point counts, that's a huge blow.

As for practicing the competition games, there is a brief warm-up, but it's not practical to have the games always on for play, IMHO. These things need to be dialed-in and error-free. The more people play them, the more chance there is for the game to break or get wonky. Learning the shots on the fly is also part of competition (even though I suck at it).

I don't think the one-player wedgeheads are unfair. Play order is based upon seeding or performance in the previous game, so the order of play is under your control to a certain extent. We all learn by watching others (which is why the player with first choice almost always decides to play last), so these games are no different.

I would say, however, that games that don't require a tremendous amount of skill (like Slick Chick, which is just a pachinko game) shouldn't be used.

Finally, while I can see your point about paying for an additional entry into ReplayFX, I think it's the only way to go. Pinburgh entry fees mostly get put into the prize pool, so there has to be another revenue stream. Renting out that convention center and moving all of those games cannot be cheap, and the entry fee is how they are able to pay for it all, especially on Thursday, when the attendance is pretty much limited to Pinburgh players. Plus, you get a ton of free entertainment. All of those machines on free play was awesome, and even though I focused on the tournament, I sure got my money's worth. And when you choose to buy a pass for your kids, they have tons of things to do at no additional costs: climbing walls, trampolines, bounce houses, and loads of games, all in what seems to be a pretty safe environment. That's a pretty good deal, no matter how you slice it!

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#5 7 years ago

DLS

leaffan67

Pinside member

Toronto, ON

12y 65,900 621 46 37

10 out of 10 for sure!

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#6 7 years ago

LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

New York, NY

10y 148K 33,502

Quoted from silver_spinner:
how all of the show organizers pull it off is simply amazing. top notch supreme over the top event by far.
it's dazzling, amazing and hard to intake all of it. well structured and professional.
3 suggestions i have are as follows: im probably way off and could be alone on these thoughts, but they have crossed my mind.
1) let us practice on the pinburgh games for a nice time length prior to the event start or in between rounds or dinner break times.
Even wed night somehow or 9am to noon then start round 1 on thursday. it takes some people a few times on a game to learn bounces, tilt settings, etc. esp on games not very familiar with or games that are 1 player em tilt ends game.
when you are first in a group on an em 1 player (esp one where tilt ends game) and have to play the game through alone, its kinda unfair IMO. everyone else learns from your mistakes and the tilt variance. then they score better when they play their full game.
2) any games that allow steeling locks need to be played as one player games or not used in the tourney at all.
3) FOR those of us who are going for pinburgh only and already have to pay for parking, hotel, entry fee for pinburgh.
The having to pay to get into the "show" is what bothers me. $100 basically for the full event pass and if you have other family members playing in pinburgh, the price is obviously $100 X the number of your family members as well.
what if we only are going to pinburgh to play in pinburgh and dont want to partake in the free play area or other show activities? Isn't there a way pinburgh can just have its own area and entrance and be separate? on thurs and fri and even sat (if qualified), we really don't have much extra time or remaining energy to do any other thing than pinburgh anyhow.
we could still pay to play the games in pinburgh. The actual pinburgh tourney games could be on coin play like they were a few years back, or , we as players could pay a "fee" that would virtually cover coin drop up front if coin drop wasn't an option.
10 rounds 4 games per round. em= 25 cents, new dmd 75 cents (or $1), the other 2 bank games (ss, older dmd) 50 cents each. so per round is $2ish per person to play the 4 games. so $20 ish total for all 10 rounds.
if you make the playoffs, an additional fee could be collected per player.
that is much cheaper than $100 for the event pass per person.
in addition, if a pinburgh player DID want to attend the replay fx freeplay area and other things the venue has to offer, they can pay an added fee to attend the actual "show".

These are all terrible suggestions.

1. There are like 200 games there. Any kind of "practice" would be completely pointless. You are really gonna run around "testing bounces" and tilts on these games. The entire POINT of pinburgh is that you are playing all of these different games and doing it cold. Everyone is on equal footing here. No practice for anybody.

2. So no system 11 or 80s games? Wow what a great idea!!! Just throw about 100 games outnofnthe tournament cause you get your feelings hurt when someone steals your balls. Come on dude. Lock stealing is part of the game - if you can't handle it just don't lock balls. Or, lock all three And start multiball in one ball. Problem solved.

Pinball, like life, isn't always fair. Deal with it.

3. I don't like math and gave up about a third of the way through. The price is fine and totally fair. At PAPA, you would spend about the same to play 40-60 competitive matches.

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#7 7 years ago

JCD

dmbjunky

Pinside member

Odon, IN

8y 96,400 6,791 91

Can I make a few suggestions for the stream?

Hire a sound guy or someone experienced in running sound at an event to help set up mics for Bowen that we can hear on stream as well as live in the crowd.

Place a camera overlooking the entire event for the in between game shots.

Place a camera on the commentators so we can occasionally be introduced to them.

Install a large screen somewhere for the live crowd to watch the stream.

Install some lights to light up the playfields for better viewing on stream.

Try to stream more of Pinburgh on Twitch. The Kong Off was streamed a lot more than Pinburgh.

Overall again I enjoyed the stream. Both sets of commentators were fun and informative. The direction on the stream was great with sticking with one group till they finish. Great Job and Thanks for all the hard work.

Oh and the live soldering was pretty cool to see.

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#8 7 years ago

JAM

NPO

Pinside member

12y 133K 7,652 3 17

Quoted from dmbjunky:
Can I make a few suggestions for the stream?
Hire a sound guy or someone experienced in running sound at an event to help set up mics for Bowen that we can hear on stream as well as live in the crowd.
Place a camera overlooking the entire event for the in between game shots.
Place a camera on the commentators so we can occasionally be introduced to them.
Install a large screen somewhere for the live crowd to watch the stream.
Install some lights to light up the playfields for better viewing on stream.
Try to stream more of Pinburgh on Twitch. The Kong Off was streamed a lot more than Pinburgh.
Overall again I enjoyed the stream. Both sets of commentators were fun and informative. The direction on the stream was great with sticking with one group till they finish. Great Job and Thanks for all the hard work.

New guy here to watching streams of these events live. Would you mind sharing the links for the future/posterity's sake? Thanks!

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#9 7 years ago

JCD

dmbjunky

Pinside member

Odon, IN

8y 96,400 6,791 91

https://www.twitch.tv/papatvpinball/profile

The pinburgh video isn't up yet though. It might be sometime next week.

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#10 7 years ago

BOB

windoesnot

Pinside member

Leyland

9y 36,050 116 2 30

Pinburgh video is indeed up on their Twitch archive, its just labelled wrong. Watch the latest video on there for the Pinburgh finals

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#11 7 years ago

TSS

fxdwg

Pinside+ Frequent

North Canton, OH

8y 76,900 1,245 11 7

OP
Quoted from zsciaeount:
... in fact, I thought it was actually a bit quieter. There were a few times when some annoying noise came from the other side, including some a-hole on a cart that kept blowing his horn while we were trying to play...

I think that was the horn on top of the rock climbing wall, whenever someone made it to the top and hit the button, that freaking horn went off... I figured it would have bothered a few of the tourney players... maybe just have lights that turn on next year if that wall is back. LOL

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#12 7 years ago

DRI

dri

Raccoon City Pinball

Santa Cruz, CA

11y 80,550 1,107 14 2

Other than Bowen needing a longer mic cable, this was a 10/10 through and through. I do however agree with coordination of food trucks in the food break, that would be a nice addition.

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#13 7 years ago

PEZ

pezpunk

iScored

Bristow, VA

11y 103K 7,008 4 20

I had an absolute blast.

My one and only complaint is not enough food and beverage was available. There was only one vendor selling beer/liquor and the line all day and all night Saturday was absurdly long.

For food, it was basically just hot dogs and pretzels, right? I mean yes there are plenty of restaurants within walking distance, but it'd be nice to be able to grab a sandwich between rounds (i.e. somewhere in the hall or just outside).

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#14 7 years ago

MWS

Methos

Pinside member

Lodi, WI

12y 103K 7,269 21 10 1

Quoted from pezpunk:
I had an absolute blast.
My one and only complaint is not enough food and beverage was available. There was only one vendor selling beer/liquor and the line all day and all night Saturday was absurdly long.
For food, it was basically just hot dogs and pretzels, right? I mean yes there are plenty of restaurants within walking distance, but it'd be nice to be able to grab a sandwich between rounds (i.e. somewhere in the hall or just outside).

I am going to guess that convention rules of some sort prevent better choices.

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#15 7 years ago

PEZ

pezpunk

iScored

Bristow, VA

11y 103K 7,008 4 20

Quoted from Methos:
I am going to guess that convention rules of some sort prevent better choices.

well, they certainly didn't seem to have a problem with people bringing food or drink in. i don't see why it'd be a problem to offer a wider variety, or at the very least have more than one person serving drinks. it was a huge bottleneck.

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#16 7 years ago

JMS

swampfire

Pinside+ Addict

11y 168K 13,592 48

There were so many unexpected pleasures, I want to focus on those first:

1. The inflatable couches were really nice.

2. The games were top-notch, and when there was a problem it was dealt with immediately.

3. There was a huge row of great back-up pins, for when the fix would take a while.

4. The bands were absolutely amazing. Universal Beat Sounds was the first to lure me to the stage with their wicked tunes. Then I saw Bit Brigade and Caress of Steel City (Rush cover band). I got my $100 worth just from watching those 3 bands.

5. There were far more women participating than I expected, and I thought that was great

6. People mostly honored Bowen's request to "be excellent to each other".

7. Pittsburgh people are really nice to drunks stumbling around their city at 3am. But that's probably a post for the OT forum.

8. There are some great bars and restaurants just a block away. I love Ten Penny and Tonic.

9. Death Save Disciples are really fun to drink with.

Things I'll do differently next time:

1. Bring a premium comfort mat, cut in 2 for easy transport
2. Don't start drinking gin and tonic, just because the bar is named Tonic.
3. Bring a sweatshirt, just in case. Balancing A/C against 700 pins is a dark art.
4. Take a picture of each round's result sheet. An error was made on my last round, but it didn't really matter (I was still 3 wins short of qualifying).
5. Understand that a bank, a group, a set and a star cluster all refer to the same thing: a bank of 4 games.

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#17 7 years ago

JMS

swampfire

Pinside+ Addict

11y 168K 13,592 48

Also, here's a tip for iPhone and iPad users: you can search for your name using the "omnibar". You just have to scroll down to "On This Page" in the search results.

I'm planning to write some Python scripts for next year, assuming the Pinburgh software doesn't change too much. I want an app that will monitor the website and alert me as soon as the matches are published:

"Go to bank 17 for round 6. Your games are Spider-Man, King Kool, Transporter and Flash. You are 3rd seed."

Then the app would pull down rulesheets and pin tips for those games.

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#18 7 years ago

JAY

jrobinso99

Pinside member

11y 63,950 494

Quoted from pezpunk:
, it was basically just hot dogs and pretzels, right? I mean yes there are plenty of restaurants within walking distance, but it'd be nice to be able to grab a sandwich between rounds (i.e. somewhere in the hall or just outside).

The food place on the left has other options, including chicken tenders & fries as well as a pulled pork BBQ sandwich with coleslaw. The BBQ is actually pretty darn good IMO... I believe they served beer from there too.

As for everything else - the quality of the machines, timing of rounds, venue, layout, etc, the Pinburgh/Replay team is absolutely killing it. This is the best pinball event on the planet!

-Jay

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#19 7 years ago

BLB

iluvak9

Pinside+ Frequent

Henderson, NV

11y 65,300 256 4 12

OP
Quoted from zsciaeount:
I would say, however, that games that don't require a tremendous amount of skill (like Slick Chick, which is just a pachinko game) shouldn't be used.

I have to pipe in here in response to your comment about Slick Chick. I have a feeling that you are not fully aware of the playfield shots and rules for this game which seems evident from your description of the game as "just a pachinko game". In fact, it is generally regarded as one of the classic EM's. I was disappointed that I didn't get to play the bank in which this game was located, and I am just posting this in the effort to support this game for inclusion in future Pinburgh (and other pinball) events. There were many other games at Pinburgh this year that I was assigned to play which were much simpler in ruleset and more based on luck than Slick Chick (Ready, Aim, Fire comes to mind).

However, having said that, I don't even see a problem with including the lesser skill oriented games in the bank sets. I think that part of what makes Pinburgh so much fun is experiencing such a wide variety of games that all fall under the umbrella of what we refer to as "pinball". I've competed at Pinburgh 3 times thus far and I fnd that each time I discover fun games that I would have just walked by at a show if Pinburgh hadn't "forced" me to play them in an assigned bank.

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#20 7 years ago

EP

epthegeek

Pinside member

Muskego, WI

11y 141K 7,529 11

I don't do tournaments. I don't like tournaments. I *LOVE* pinburgh.

To be specific, I don't care for the standard "herb style" tournaments with standing in lines to put up a single player entry to try to get a high enough score to qualify. Those just aren't for me. I know tons of people dig them, and that's awesome for those guys.

Pinburgh being 2 full days of pinball and socializing for one price and maybe the chance to win money is an absolute blast. My second favorite event of the year (Behind only BangerJay's Pinball Olympics).

I've only done the 2 years at the current location, so I can't compare anything to the 'old way' it was, but so far I haven't had any issues with the hard floor, the lighting, or anything like that. I thought I would, but so far I survive just fine. Sit down when you can, and you could a lot more often this year with the huge number of added tables and chairs/couches, and the concrete floor isn't all that bad. Rent an anti-fatigue mat if that's your thing, or bring a small folding stool for a guaranteed place to sit -- or hit the floor Indian style like Josh.

The A finals stage (speaking from the point of view of a spectator) was better this year than it was last year. I really liked Bowen chiming in with updates MC style. A larger display that could show the current playing game would be cool, as would a large shot of the score display -- but even without that, it was still pretty good spectator pinball.

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#21 7 years ago

MLZ

pepermintswirl

Pinside member

Prospect Park, PA

10y 39,900 225 6

+1 for Slick Chick love. Best. EM. Ever.

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#22 7 years ago

FWC

frankie898

Inactive member

Willoughby Hills, OH

13y 41,150 155 18

Slick Chick is an amazing EM!!! As for the show? Best show ive been to in a while. My dad and I took a day trip there from the Cleveland area. Spent 12 hours there and loved every second of it. It seems impossible to set up something that big AND keep it running well. Great job and hats off to all involved.

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#23 7 years ago

OP

BMB

zsciaeount

Pinside member

Los Angeles, CA

12y 56,900 566 29 37

Slick Chick is an overly important plunge followed by the ball trickling down a set of bumpers to flippers that are too wide and not powerful enough to get the ball more than halfway up the playfield. A gobble hole worth more than 3 minutes of flipping encourages you to end your ball early. It's 80% luck.

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#24 7 years ago

JCD

dmbjunky

Pinside member

Odon, IN

8y 96,400 6,791 91

OP
Quoted from zsciaeount:
Slick Chick is an overly important plunge followed by the ball trickling down a set of bumpers to flippers that are too wide and not powerful enough to get the ball more than halfway up the playfield. A gobble hole worth more than 3 minutes of flipping encourages you to end your ball early. It's 80% luck.

Did you play it before the tourney?

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#25 7 years ago

AJK

bkerins

Pinside member

Salem, MA

11y 52,800 778

OP
Quoted from zsciaeount:
There were a few times when some annoying noise came from the other side, including some a-hole on a cart that kept blowing his horn while we were trying to play.

Heh, this was the sound kids got to hear when they made it to the top of the rock wall. Darn those a-hole kids!

Glad you had such a good time. Thanks for the writeup!

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#26 7 years ago

MOO

metallik

Pinside member

Cincinnati, OH

11y 117K 6,520 44

Quoted from pezpunk:
well, they certainly didn't seem to have a problem with people bringing food or drink in. i don't see why it'd be a problem to offer a wider variety, or at the very least have more than one person serving drinks. it was a huge bottleneck.

The Jimmy Johns was only a few minutes out the door... I was able to grab sandwiches and drinks in the breaks between rounds on Fri no problem. They serve fast (few min at most) and the food isn't bad.

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#27 7 years ago

LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

New York, NY

10y 148K 33,502

Isn't it funny how the top players always manage to advance despite having to play all of these "no-skill" EMs and System 11s where lock stealing is a fact of life?

Even on a ridiculous EM like Doozie - which I admit I hate to play in a pinburgh bank - skill makes a difference.

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#28 7 years ago

JAY

jay

Pinside member

Santa Ana, CA

13y 59,050 791 6 68

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
2. So no system 11 or 80s games? Wow what a great idea!!! Just throw about 100 games outnofnthe tournament cause you get your feelings hurt when someone steals your balls. Come on dude. Lock stealing is part of the game - if you can't handle it just don't lock balls. Or, lock all three And start multiball in one ball. Problem solved.

Pinburgh was having lock stealing games played as single player back when, and players complained. Now they're playing 4 player games with lock stealing and players complain. Sometimes people just want to complain. And since we're complaining, I hated getting locks stolen last year at Pinburgh... it just feels wrong to me, whether I'm stealing them or having them stolen from me.

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#29 7 years ago

LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

New York, NY

10y 148K 33,502

Quoted from jay:
I think single player games is the way to go, but when Pinburgh was playing them as single player games players complained. Now they're playing 4 player games with lock stealing and players complain. Sometimes people just want to complain. And since we're complaining, I hated getting locks stolen last year at Pinburgh... it just feels wrong to me, whether I'm stealing them or having them stolen from me.

When I played Elvira on Thursday, I didn't focus on multiballs, I worked both ramps. Then, when I came up and the player before me had locked balls I stole them and started (a rather unprofitable) multiball. But I least I didn't leave the table set for the next player.

I won. Three points for me.

It's strategy. It's fun. It's pinball. Playing 1-player games beyond single player EMs would be completely against the spirit of the event and not fun.

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#30 7 years ago

JAY

jay

Pinside member

Santa Ana, CA

13y 59,050 791 6 68

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
It's strategy. It's fun. It's pinball. Playing 1-player games beyond single player EMs would be completely against the spirit of the event and not fun.

In your opinion.

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#31 7 years ago

DEF

DefaultGen

Pinside member

11y 123K 2,806

Lock stealing is just another risk/reward part of pinball. It's no different than building up a solar value in Pinbot that another player collects or advancing the TZ gumball machine but draining before you get the powerball. Playing games like that alone takes away an exciting part of playing it in a group.

My groups also had fun on Slick Chick and Casanova (which is half slot machine) even if they weren't the most hardcore competitive games. The guys who were playing to win $1000s still all qualified for the finals.

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#32 7 years ago

LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

New York, NY

10y 148K 33,502

Quoted from jay:
In your opinion.

No. It's a fact.

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#33 7 years ago

JPM

jeffpm

Inactive member

Richmond, VA

10y 43,350 413 2 8

What a fantastic event. I am amazed at how smoothly the tournament ran given its sheer size.

For next year, I hope they can improve on the PA situation. Unless you were really close to the one speaker, it was pretty hard to hear anything being announced. It would be great if the convention center had some type of intercom system that you could hear throughout the entire hall.

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#34 7 years ago

CRC

mkecasey

Pinside member

Milwaukee, WI

9y 42,800 658 1

Strategy is a big component of competitive events. Lock stealing involves strategy. While I'm still pretty new to competitive pinball and I've had my locked balls stolen from me plenty of times when I was first starting out, I wouldn't change a thing. I think lock stealing games are an important part of pinball. It forces you to play different style of games with a fresh approach.

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#35 7 years ago

JAY

jay

Pinside member

Santa Ana, CA

13y 59,050 791 6 68

I was trying to point out that someone can have a different opinion about lock stealing, and not be wrong. But Pinside, so probably should have known better...

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#36 7 years ago

CRC

mkecasey

Pinside member

Milwaukee, WI

9y 42,800 658 1

Sorry jay. I honestly wasn't trying to pile on. Totally get what you are saying and I was just trying to give my thoughts on it as well. I completely understand why some people don't like lock stealing. My bad.

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#37 7 years ago

JZM

bangerjay

Pinside member

Yomamasville

12y 106K 4,816 46

I like lock stealing games

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#38 7 years ago

ACE

jcpinny

Silverballs Amusements

Durango, CO

11y 34,050 58 27

My biggest gripe was the Saturday competition. I prefer the "consolation" tourney where those that haven't made the qualifiers have an alternative activity. As soon as competitors were knocked out, they joined in and it was hours long boring waits to try and spend your 10 games qualifying. Why not do a scheduled pin-golf with all the extra machines around. Strategically schedule tee times to help with flow. When you haven't qualified for Pinburgh, perhaps the IFPA points would mean less than a cheap trophy for good play on Saturday.

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#39 7 years ago

QRK

Deez

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 134K 6,776 13

Lock stealing is great - It causes you to be double screwed if you don't get multiball started. I love it. It feels so good to squeak out a victory on someone thru the use of it.

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#40 7 years ago

ERW

chuckwurt

Pincinnati

10y 193K 31,335 16 13

Lock stealing is great. I can only see someone being against it if they didn't know about it, it happened to them, they lost, and now they are upset.

I completely understand being upset if lock stealing caused you to lose. But I'm completely against taking that strategy out of pinball. It's just one of the many skills you most have to be able to succeed on all eras of games.

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#41 7 years ago

LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

New York, NY

10y 148K 33,502

Rollergames - the most exciting game in pinball - certainly isn't hurt by lock-stealing!!!

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#42 7 years ago

LCP

ryanwanger

Comet Pinball

Boulder, CO

10y 100K 2,651 88

Huge thanks to the crew who put on Pinburgh. It was again amazing.

Short of putting the players in a sound-proof booth so the commentary could be broadcast to the audience, the emceeing by Bowen was pretty cool. I was in the front row so I had no problem seeing, but I did stand at the back briefly and it was almost impossible to see what was happening on the screens from that distance. Putting the screens at the front of the stage might have made a difference.

It was amazing how many people were there to watch the finals. How many chairs were set up for that? 300? 500? It was full with many more standing in the back and on the sides.

The games played awesome. The tournament ran smoothly. Everyone I talked to enjoyed everything except their own play.

The consolation tournament was a bit of a mess in my opinion. I paid for it, waited in lines twice to play games, and then gave up. It was more fun to just play on the other machines. I know multiple people who did the same, or didn't bother to play at all due to the lines. When I arrived there was only 1 scorekeeper for 12 games. It needed to be 3 scorekeepers.

Additionally, as far as I heard, the consolation finals was almost entirely made up of top tier players anyway. I think the knockout tournament from 2015 seemed far more successful. I agree that pingolf would be an interesting way to do it also. Have a few different 9 hole courses, and people can just show up whenever they want and play.

I didn't spend a lot of time outside of the tournament area, but there were awesome and rare games all over the place to enjoy. The upper playfield on Soccer Kings was a delightful surprise.

I know how much effort it takes to run much smaller scale tournaments, and I can't give enough thanks to the organizers and everyone else who was involved. It really is an amazing tournament. I already can't wait for next year.

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#43 7 years ago

AEM

monty-

Inactive member

Ottawa, ON

9y 16,400 56 11

Quoted from ryanwanger:
The consolation tournament was a bit of a mess in my opinion. I paid for it, waited in lines twice to play games, and then gave up. It was more fun to just play on the other machines. I know multiple people who did the same, or didn't bother to play at all due to the lines. When I arrived there was only 1 scorekeeper for 12 games. It needed to be 3 scorekeepers.

Additionally, as far as I heard, the consolation finals was almost entirely made up of top tier players anyway.

agreed re: the scorekeepers. they needed at least 3-4 given the pace of the games. the key was definitely getting entries in early - once A/B/C/D Division Finals were over the lines got nuts!

re: top tier - i made finals and i'd say it was a good mix of talent. Best Game format is a bit of a crapshoot anyways, especially Limited Entries. it's worth noting the guy who won wasn't even a ranked player! biggest IFPA mover candidate!

https://matchplay.events/live/6v63/standings

https://www.ifpapinball.com/player.php?p=37741

all that being said it sounds like next year they are going to address the lineups - make qualifying longer, more scorekeepers, etc. i liked the format as it gave me the ability to play a few entries, go play some other games, come back and play some more, etc. i don't know if i'd still want to be on a "schedule" of head-to-head matchups after playing the main Pinburgh event for 2-3 days. it's nice to be able to come and go as you please and still participate in the consolation tourney.

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#44 7 years ago

BLB

iluvak9

Pinside+ Frequent

Henderson, NV

11y 65,300 256 4 12

OP
Quoted from zsciaeount:
Slick Chick is an overly important plunge followed by the ball trickling down a set of bumpers to flippers that are too wide and not powerful enough to get the ball more than halfway up the playfield. A gobble hole worth more than 3 minutes of flipping encourages you to end your ball early. It's 80% luck.

If you think Slick Chick just offers a skill shot, some bumpers and a gobble hole, then you don't understand the game and need to read the rules and learn more about the side stationary targets, the top stationary target, the 1-4 rollover lanes, the button rollovers, the behind the flippers rubberized post walls and how they all effect scoring, ball duration, game play and collection of the S-L-I-C-K and C-H-I-C-K bumper letters. If you keep the ball in play for 3 minutes and your most lucrative payoff is the gobble hole, then you are not understanding the game.

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#45 7 years ago

AJK

bkerins

Pinside member

Salem, MA

11y 52,800 778

Quoted from jay:
Pinburgh was having lock stealing games played as single player back when, and players complained. Now they're playing 4 player games with lock stealing and players complain. Sometimes people just want to complain. And since we're complaining, I hated getting locks stolen last year at Pinburgh... it just feels wrong to me, whether I'm stealing them or having them stolen from me.

It's more than that -- Pinburgh started with all 4-player games, and the lock stealing and feature stealing complaints were the most common piece of negative feedback. So, Pinburgh 2013 ran with any such game marked as single player only. The list is online at http://bit.ly/pinburgh2013games (look for the bold games).

The response was overwhelmingly negative. Players said that one-player games were not as interesting, and were competitively imbalanced against P1 and in favor of P4.

The one-year experiment was abandoned and will not be seen again!

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#46 7 years ago

BLB

iluvak9

Pinside+ Frequent

Henderson, NV

11y 65,300 256 4 12

While I had to leave on Saturday and did not play in the intergalactic championship tournament, my sense is that the primary gripes posted here were that (a) allowing each player 10 entries led to over demand for game usage and lines that were too long (b) allowing all players, including top players that made the playoffs, to compete made the demand in the post playoffs period even worse and (c) allowing top players to compete made it difficult for lesser skill players to have any chance especially given the opportunity to play 10 entries for top 4 game scores. Perhaps an option would be to limit the # of games played per the $10 entry to, for example, 4 or 5 games per person while still basing the standings on the top 4 scores among the 4 or 5 games played (instead of allowng 10 games per enty). This would reduce the length of the lines and volume of games played both before and after the playoffs are done while also limiting the ability of the top players to fine tune their performance on games via multiple chances playing several of the same games more than once. The $10 entry fee is still a relatively low fee for an entry to play 4 or 5 games, and the $10 is going to charity anyway. I think this might be a nice balance of enhancing the chances for lesser skilled players while still maximizing the number of entries. After all, I think we would all agree that the fact that the entry money goes to charity is a key incentive for ensuring that the number of entries is maximized and it would be counter to this goal to not allow all players who want to the opportunity to enter the tournament.

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#47 7 years ago

LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

New York, NY

10y 148K 33,502

By the time I was done I had ZERO interest in another tournament, but I can see by the names who did do it that many didn't share that view.

Would probably be a good idea to limit any "side tournament" to those who at least didn't qualify in A or B, to keep the numbers down and also give less skilled players a better chance.

But hey...it IS for charity.