(Topic ID: 86122)

Pinburgh 2014


By Euchrid

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 44 posts
  • 24 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by geet84
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    #1 5 years ago

    I was shocked when on the pinside, the pinball site of all pinball sites, there was no talk about how people's experience was at this years Pinburgh. So, I'll make a thread. Feel free to share your experiences so that Pinburgh will maybe sell out next year...

    This was my first year to go to Pinburgh and people I knew told me that it was a great experience. My son and I went and we had an awesome time! The entire venue is amazing and its quite an accomplishment that they manage to keep a 400 person event running seamlessly - both in terms of managing the tournament and the games themselves. Kudos to all who were responsible for that. I also had the opportunity to speak briefly with Bowen, who I believe was in charge of running the event, and he was great and his enthusiasm for the game was evident. It just reminded me that, despite the fact that we are all there competing against one another, that we all share the same passion for the game and we really are a community of like-minded people.

    This was expecially evident in how adults treated my kid. Knowing that so many people were on a wait list that wanted to be in Pinburgh and that I had enrolled my eight year old to compete made me nervous that folks might be TO'd that he was playing instead of some other long-time pinballer who was not as fortunate. But, no such thing. Everyone was kind and respectful to him and treated him like any other pinball lover there. So, thank you PAPA and thank you to all those that were there!

    #2 5 years ago

    Pinside people are too busy taking photos of their flawless shooter lanes to actually PLAY pinball

    I echo all you said above. Pinburgh is what happens when smart people get together and do something good for something they're passionate about. The amount of work preparing and running the tournament in such a smooth manner is probably way more than we can even imagine. My feet were hurting just standing around playing pinball - I can't imagine the techs and coordinators who were running around for 4 days straight.

    #3 5 years ago

    I'm barely back to reality today. 18 hours of playing straight on Sunday alone. Was a blast playing on the cameras Saturday night for the b division tie breaker.

    What was you and your sons name? I may have played you or your son this weekend.

    -Jim

    #4 5 years ago
    Quoted from Whridlsoncestood:

    I'm barely back to reality today. 18 hours of playing straight on Sunday alone. Was a blast playing on the cameras Saturday night for the b division tie breaker.
    What was you and your sons name? I may have played you or your son this weekend.
    -Jim

    My son is named Gregory.

    I played with you in the B division tie breaker. Needless to say, I'd like to have that one to do over...

    Nick

    10
    #5 5 years ago

    I am one of the tournament directors, but the PAPA staff really make it happen: Kevin, Mark, Doug, Elizabeth, Steve (lead tech). The other techs: Rich, Justin, Nick. The desk staff. The other tournament directors: the PAPA staff, Brett, Per.

    Thanks for the kind words about the event, and I'm glad to be a part of helping it continue to improve. I'm already looking forward to 2015.

    Your son played the game of the tournament, in the Division D tiebreaker on Saturday night. That was spectacular. It's rare to see anyone get to Sea of Simulation without an extra ball ... never mind that it was in an elimination game ... and especially never mind that Gregory is 8. Holy moly!

    #6 5 years ago
    Quoted from tb0ne:

    Pinside people are too busy taking photos of their flawless shooter lanes to actually PLAY pinball

    and are too busy talking about prices and installing modifications...

    #7 5 years ago

    I was really impressed with how smoothly the tournament ran. The real-time website updates were fantastic. The personalized scoresheets for each match made things virtually idiot-proof. The machines were numerous, varied, and in great condition. I got to play against some top-quality opponents and felt like I left PAPA a better player as a result. It was a very positive first Pinburgh experience for me.

    It was great to meet you Bowen. Kudos to you and all the staff.

    A suggestion for next year.. show the finals tournament progress on a monitor in the TV area — something showing the 4 players in the round and who is currently playing (A view of the score displays above the overhead view TVs would be icing on the cake — the screen showing the Twitch broadcast was nice, but didn't show the player name. It was also off to the side and slightly delayed with the live action). I wasn't listening to the Twitch stream and I don't know the player's names/faces. Many of the attendees do, obviously, but a display would make the whole thing more accessible to newcomers like me.

    Oh.. one additional suggestion. Industrial-strength lavatory ventilation. I'd be willing to pay extra next year to make this happen. =)

    #8 5 years ago
    Quoted from Euchrid:

    My son is named Gregory.
    I played with you in the B division tie breaker. Needless to say, I'd like to have that one to do over...
    Nick

    I also played in the B division tie-breaker. I'd love to do that one over too, obviously. But it was a great experience and I played above my expectations. Very happy I made B division after Friday.

    #9 5 years ago

    I ended up 3rd in that tie breaker. Really wish I had ever played BSD before that night. Learned a lot about that game very quickly!

    Your son Gregory lot that place up! I was watching him compete in the 2nd to last round of D finals against my friend Scott who ended up winning it and he put up an amazing fight. He's got great talent. He's going to be beating us in the b division tie breaker next year!

    -Jim

    #10 5 years ago

    I posted a few pics and updates (Stucky BALLS) on FB, but I was too damn busy playing pin for the most part.

    I top 8'd B-Divvy last year. My goal was to qualify A-Divvy this year and I did. Very happy about that. My highest ranking was 12 after the 4th round, and then the ceiling hit me on the head. Hard. My 5th round had Keith Elwin, David Hegge and Josh Lehan in it. My score on MataHari was 480k. That was good enough for 4th place. First round the next day included former PAPA champ Jorian Engelbrektsson and top qualified Robert Gagno. Well, qualifying for A Division is one thing. Playing in it is another. I ended up 4 points out of qualifying. Four points out off qualifying has as many players in it as those who did qualify for finals on Sunday. My roommate for the weekend, Brian Dominy, did not have a good first few rounds and asked me for advice. I told him to "Play better!" (monkey screech in the background) and he laughed. And then you know what... he played better. Dontcha love it when someone asks you for advice and they implement it? He ended up missing the A Div finals by ONE POINT! Well played Brian, Well played...

    Now the thing about this event is not that you have to play incredibly well, you have to CONSISTENTLY play incredibly well. You remember that game that you had that put the high score on the table? Well, that needs to happen as often as it can, as in... EVERY game. If you do not consistently play well, you are not going to be in the game. You CAN get lucky, but as the competition rises, the luck factor disappears with the quickness.

    The good news is that all the pinheads are very civilized and happy to be there. I certainly was. However, if I am going to play better (monkey screech in the background). I need to train for success. My games will now be set up PAPA nasty and I'm getting ready for PAPA. August 17th will be here before you know it!!! See y'all at the Shiloh Grill for some Mac N' Cheese!

    In the meantime, I must work on my Pin-Fu!!!

    #11 5 years ago

    My wife and I played this year and last year and both times were great! I did notice the competition was even better this year. Hard to believe how good even C div players are. Compliments to the PAPA staff for a very well run tourney. There were a few times when we needed a rulings call or tech help and they were never more than 2 -3 three minutes away. Top marks for support!!! I could rehash a vast list of improvements and examples where things went so well however in the spirit of improvement for next year I would like to add some constructive criticism.

    Constructive Criticism:
    The pitch of most of the playfields were way too high. I was not the only one who commented on this, some high ranked players also said the same thing. This greatly affects the way the game was designed to play and the fun factor. In my opinion, the games should be made harder by increasing the difficultly settings in the software (when possible). I can site multiple examples on games that I own where solely increasing the pitch makes the game easier to play rather that harder as it takes certain hazards out of the picture. I am less concerned of this game setup for one tournament; Pinburgh however I fear that it would become the standard set-up for other circuit and non-circuit events. Mark and Bowen, please understand that tried to make this statement with the utmost of respect and I hope it comes through that way. I would love to hear your comments on why the games were set-up that way and if it is to become a PAPA standard.

    Thanks,
    Dave

    #12 5 years ago
    Quoted from DnDPins:

    Constructive Criticism:
    The pitch of most of the playfields were way too high. I was not the only one who commented on this, some high ranked players also said the same thing. This greatly affects the way the game was designed to play and the fun factor. In my opinion, the games should be made harder by increasing the difficultly settings in the software (when possible). I can site multiple examples on games that I own where solely increasing the pitch makes the game easier to play rather that harder as it takes certain hazards out of the picture. I am less concerned of this game setup for one tournament; Pinburgh however I fear that it would become the standard set-up for other circuit and non-circuit events. Mark and Bowen, please understand that tried to make this statement with the utmost of respect and I hope it comes through that way. I would love to hear your comments on why the games were set-up that way and if it is to become a PAPA standard.
    Thanks,
    Dave

    Hey Dave, I didn't feel like the games were pitched too high, so I just wanted to put that out there. I suspect maybe that was so that the games wouldn't last too long for some of the many excellent players that are there? (Totally not the case for me though Since I played more games that I hadn't ever played vs. ones I had played, I probably don't have the best perspective but as a player, I did have fun on them, and when we hit Stern Spiderman in the last round of B and with Kevin Birrell in our group, I thought that might last too long, since the posts still had rubbers and the middle post between the flippers was still there and with rubbers. Alas, Spidey got the better of us and none of us even broke 50M!

    Anyhow, I had an amazing time and am working on doing a write up as well. One thing I think that us players can bring to Pinburgh is better aim in the bathroom - how can people with such good aim with the flippers be so bad at aiming when we're in the bathroom?

    #13 5 years ago

    I hope I did not give the impression that I didn't have fun because I had a blast and will continue to attend Pinburgh every year.

    I do suspect they set the games up that way to make them more difficult for the great players (not me either...C div) I was simply trying to make a case for increasing difficulty with settings rather than extreme slope. Most of the machines had the leg levelers all the way up and if you looked at the level on the playfield, they were pegged. I guess at the end of the day, I am making a statement more on my preference. Just one person's opinion.

    #14 5 years ago
    Quoted from DnDPins:

    I was simply trying to make a case for increasing difficulty with settings rather than extreme slope. Most of the machines had the leg levelers all the way up and if you looked at the level on the playfield, they were pegged. I guess at the end of the day, I am making a statement more on my preference. Just one person's opinion.

    Some games just play to long ie. CSI, LOTR, ST. Put a top 100 IFPA player on that game and the play can go on forever. That is one of the main reasons to increase the slope along with opening lanes. Increasing software difficulty more or less keeps scores lower not play time.

    #15 5 years ago

    GeneX -- Thanks for the awesome pics! Almost like being there. If you guys haven't seen them, they're on
    Pinball Soul's facebook page. Day 1, 2 and 3.

    https://www.facebook.com/PinballSoul

    #16 5 years ago
    Quoted from joelreeves:

    GeneX -- Thanks for the awesome pics! Almost like being there. If you guys haven't seen them, they're on
    Pinball Soul's facebook page. Day 1, 2 and 3.
    https://www.facebook.com/PinballSoul

    That's funny...there is a shot of me playing with Koi. Great pictures!

    #17 5 years ago

    Thanks! I got to play against Koi in the After Party tournament and he destroyed me on Party Zone (his initials were on it when we got to it and I said, "is that you?" and he smiled back)

    #18 5 years ago

    Just posted my own thoughts on Pinburgh here too: http://pinballsoul.com/pinburgh-2014-wrap-up/

    #19 5 years ago

    Was great playing with you gene. Believe we were on the bank with Austin powers LAH and Ali next to eachother. I was the one with the stuck ball during multiball on LAH.

    -Jim

    #20 5 years ago
    Quoted from exflexer:

    Some games just play to long ie. CSI, LOTR, ST. Put a top 100 IFPA player on that game and the play can go on forever. That is one of the main reasons to increase the slope along with opening lanes. Increasing software difficulty more or less keeps scores lower not play time.

    There was just a little consistency needed. The TSPP was brutally steep and the right outlane was rough (I had two missed skill shots that immediately drained out right outlane), while the 24 on the other side of the aisle was super flat. Even with wide outlanes, that 24 played had insanely long games. One of the rounds that took forever was Keith's group all having monster games on that 24.

    #21 5 years ago
    Quoted from johnnyfive:

    There was just a little consistency needed. The TSPP was brutally steep and the right outlane was rough (I had two missed skill shots that immediately drained out right outlane), while the 24 on the other side of the aisle was super flat. Even with wide outlanes, that 24 played had insanely long games. One of the rounds that took forever was Keith's group all having monster games on that 24.

    We strive to set up games at Pinburgh so players all have a fair shot at playing them without them being too difficult.

    With that said, we prepare over 250 different games for the tournament (most games used in any tournament) and sometimes the setups don't quite work out the way we envisioned them.

    In regards to the pitch of some games, certain games play more difficult with a shallower pitch and certain games are harder with a steeper pitch. In specific regards to 24, some times 'A' players will just play forever no matter what you do to the game. It is what makes them elite players

    #22 5 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    That was spectacular. It's rare to see anyone get to Sea of Simulation without an extra ball ... never mind that it was in an elimination game ... and especially never mind that Gregory is 8. Holy moly!

    That's frikkin' awesome! I had my Tron set up super tough (transparent slingshot rubbers that kick like a freight train, open outlanes, cleaned the disc regularly and waxed EVERYTHING.) with a fair tilt, but I know darn good and well PAPA's tilt was probably way tighter, and steeper, than mine. That's nothing to sneeze at, for any player.

    #23 5 years ago
    Quoted from ninjadoug:

    We strive to set up games at Pinburgh so players all have a fair shot at playing them without them being too difficult.
    With that said, we prepare over 250 different games for the tournament (most games used in any tournament) and sometimes the setups don't quite work out the way we envisioned them.
    In regards to the pitch of some games, certain games play more difficult with a shallower pitch and certain games are harder with a steeper pitch. In specific regards to 24, some times 'A' players will just play forever no matter what you do to the game. It is what makes them elite players

    Sorry, I didn't really mean to be critical, 24 and TSPP seemed to be exceptions on either side of the scale of difficulty. For the most part the machines were all set up to a pretty consistent level of difficulty and I didn't notice a single machine that wasn't level. That's an enormous feat.

    I was just mad to get 3 house balls on TSPP when I freakin' own one .

    #24 5 years ago

    It is by far the best tournment of the year, I made it into A division which exceeded my expectations. Made a solid run but came up short.

    My hightlight was in the second round playing Lyman Sheats, Cryss Stephens, Daniele Celestino Acciari on bank 1 on the tv's. What a dream match up to compete against that level of competition, I didn't score well in the round but I got there and now that I have that experience can take that and try to make it back there again one day...

    The best thou was hanging out with all of the great competitors there, had some good laughs and met some great new friends...

    See you all there again next year!!!!

    #25 5 years ago
    Quoted from johnnyfive:

    Sorry, I didn't really mean to be critical, 24 and TSPP seemed to be exceptions on either side of the scale of difficulty. For the most part the machines were all set up to a pretty consistent level of difficulty and I didn't notice a single machine that wasn't level. That's an enormous feat.
    I was just mad to get 3 house balls on TSPP when I freakin' own one .

    No worries, the entire team appreciates the feedback. It will help us in future tournaments (and that TSPP was rough).

    #26 5 years ago

    I'm curious - any idea if we'll see a "D" division in PAPA this year?

    -1
    #27 5 years ago
    Quoted from Gusphan:

    I'm curious - any idea if we'll see a "D" division in PAPA this year?

    Why, so people can sandbag into a easier division just like they did in Pinburgh?

    #28 5 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    That's frikkin' awesome! I had my Tron set up super tough (transparent slingshot rubbers that kick like a freight train, open outlanes, cleaned the disc regularly and waxed EVERYTHING.) with a fair tilt, but I know darn good and well PAPA's tilt was probably way tighter, and steeper, than mine. That's nothing to sneeze at, for any player.

    Thanks, it certainly made my day to see my son play that way in front of all those people. He is still talking about it, and probably will be for some time to come.

    #29 5 years ago
    Quoted from BoJo:

    Why, so everyone can sandbag into a easier division just like they did in Pinburgh?

    Some of us just suck, frankly

    #30 5 years ago
    Quoted from BoJo:

    Why, so people can sandbag into a easier division just like they did in Pinburgh?

    Why would anyone do this? Isn't the whole point to finish the best you can? Seems like a waste of time if you ask me.

    #31 5 years ago
    Quoted from chadderack:

    Some of us just suck, frankly

    There is nothing wrong with that and that is the point for the D Division.

    Quoted from fattdirk:

    Why would anyone do this? Isn't the whole point to finish the best you can? Seems like a waste of time if you ask me.

    The winner of D gets $800 and the winner of C gets $1500, so winning either of them is not a waste of time. Sadly a lot of people tank it on purpose to make it in a group lesser then their skill level so they can make easy money. I seen it happen in some of my groups this year because I have played with some of the people in the past on Saturdays (the day when it counts) and know how good they are, yet they just happened to suck on Friday for qualification. Some people compete to see how good they are and to earn points, while others just want to win as much money as they can even if it comes at the expense of beating up on people who are not as good as them in a lesser divison.

    #32 5 years ago
    Quoted from BoJo:

    There is nothing wrong with that and that is the point for the D Division.

    Sadly a lot of people tank it on purpose to make it in a group lesser then their skill level so they can make easy money. I seen it happen in some of my groups this year because I have played with some of the people in the past on Saturdays (the day when it counts) and know how good they are, yet they just happened to suck on Friday for qualification. Some people compete to see how good they are and get points, while others just want to win as much money as they can even if it comes at the expense of beating up on people who are not as good as them.

    Used to bowl in the ABT about 20 years ago (not sure if anyone here is familiar).

    Basically similar to pro tourneys (not as much money, obviously) but the prize money at that point in time was a major enticement--and they only had two divisions. Sandbagging meant you wouldn't make the cut--maybe at the next show, because you'd have a bigger handicap.

    With the pinball tourneys, it seems the winnings barely pay for a cab ride for most... and definitely not all... let alone plane tickets and hotel costs.

    It would seem that the prize money is a much smaller enticement for these tourneys, which kind of turns the sandbagging argument on its ear... if you qualify low, someone with higher skill can still take you to the woodshed later.

    Maybe if D didn't have prize money and it was just for beginners, everyone would be happy.

    #33 5 years ago
    Quoted from Euchrid:

    I was shocked when on the pinside, the pinball site of all pinball sites, there was no talk about

    ...Jim Belsito who won. Congrats Jim.

    #34 5 years ago
    Quoted from BoJo:

    I seen it happen in some of my groups this year because I have played with some of the people in the past on Saturdays (the day when it counts) and know how good they are, yet they just happened to suck on Friday for qualification. Some people compete to see how good they are and to earn points, while others just want to win as much money as they can even if it comes at the expense of beating up on people who are not as good as them in a lesser divison.

    Some people just didn't play well. Pinburg is an entirely different format from what many people are accustomed to.. from the game variety to the sheer volume of play.

    Even with people I have played many years with (so I know their capabilities) pinning down where they will end up at Pinburg is difficult. We have players in our league that are B or C division players, yet were qualifying top 10 in A division on Friday. We have people you'd think would be in C in A, and vise versa.

    We are all amateurs for the most part... top level consistency is something most players struggle with. Some people don't come in prepared either.. and travel on Friday AM, etc.

    When the spread is so narrow.. it doesn't take much to move across divisions.

    #35 5 years ago

    Quick video tour from Sunday

    Ron...

    #36 5 years ago
    Quoted from BoJo:

    There is nothing wrong with that and that is the point for the D Division.

    The winner of D gets $800 and the winner of C gets $1500, so winning either of them is not a waste of time. Sadly a lot of people tank it on purpose to make it in a group lesser then their skill level so they can make easy money. I seen it happen in some of my groups this year because I have played with some of the people in the past on Saturdays (the day when it counts) and know how good they are, yet they just happened to suck on Friday for qualification. Some people compete to see how good they are and to earn points, while others just want to win as much money as they can even if it comes at the expense of beating up on people who are not as good as them in a lesser divison.

    Who is tanking? If you have evidence of players deliberately tanking, who? You said your opponents just happened to suck against you ... maybe they actually sucked!

    Frankly I'd be shocked if a player spent $200 plus a ton of time for the off chance at an $800 win, but ok. Pinburgh has divisional restrictions that prohibit a player from winning a top-4 finish in a lower division two consecutive years, and that push players to higher divisions based on their competitive results.

    #37 5 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    Who is tanking? If you have evidence of players deliberately tanking, who? You said your opponents just happened to suck against you ... maybe they actually sucked!
    Frankly I'd be shocked if a player spent $200 plus a ton of time for the off chance at an $800 win, but ok. Pinburgh has divisional restrictions that prohibit a player from winning a top-4 finish in a lower division two consecutive years, and that push players to higher divisions based on their competitive results.

    I agree here tanking for D division probably would not be in the cards for most players as the prize money is not great. I could see it happening more in C division and really see it in the B division as many players do not feel in the 50-100 spots like they have a real chance against the top players. In future I would like to see a format for prizing a little different...

    Elite - Top 50 (Top 16 advance and get paid)
    A Division - Top 51-150 (Top 24 Advance and get paid)
    B Division - Top 151-250 (Top 24 Advance and get paid)
    C Division - Top 251-350 (Top 24 Advance and get paid)
    D Division - Top 351 - 400 (Top 16 Advance and get paid)

    With lower prize money given to the B,C,D this will stop some of the sandbagging... Plus now you can restrict top players to A division but they still have to earn their way to Elite division...

    #38 5 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    Who is tanking? If you have evidence of players deliberately tanking, who? You said your opponents just happened to suck against you ... maybe they actually sucked!

    This was my first Pinburgh and just the psychological aspect of playing on machines which I wasn't familiar was a total mind fk. I played far worse than I typically do in a league or a tournament where I get to play the machines a few times first i.e. herb style. I would miss a shot and tense up and just miss more shots because of it. It really made me appreciate the players that have ice in their veins and would get a rhythm going on any machine they step up to. That's a real talent.

    Secondly, I was surprised at the level of talent at the event. Every single ball the match could go back and forth. I would put up what I would consider a huge score and the next two players would either beat it or come pretty close in almost every single game I played. It was mentally exhausting since there was so comfortable lead at any time and not time to get out of the zone and relax. I wasn't expecting the event to be so taxing.

    Quoted from bkerins:

    Frankly I'd be shocked if a player spent $200 plus a ton of time for the off chance at an $800 win, but ok.

    I'd like to agree with you here Bowen, but I could see a player who is flirting with the boundries of qualifying for A purposely tanking a bit to qualify for B. The top players in A are just exponentially better than the rest of the field. I personally just want to continue to keep getting better so I can compete at that level, but realistically I'll never get there. I'm better off qualifying for a lower division full of casual players (I'm not even sure if this is true after witnessing the talent - more like exceptional players that had a few bad games). Fortunately, I just fall into that level due to my inconsistent play so I kind of shake out where I should be regardless of the sandbaggers.

    In conclusion, this event was fantastic and I appreciate all the effort that goes into it. I was really impressed with the efficiency of everything and how it all worked out and am looking forward to next year and trying to finish better than I did this year.

    #39 5 years ago

    FYI you can look at the tiebreaker transition here:

    http://pinburgh.com/2014/live/transition.html

    Anyone marked as "tied for _ spaces in _" had the choice to move up or move down. In all cases, more players chose to move up than to move down.

    Players do choose to "move down" for many reasons, including perception of their own ability or experience level. One plus is that it still comes down to execution, you still must play well in Saturday's five rounds to advance to finals.

    It's possible to tip this balance slightly by tuning the prize levels, but if it tips too far in favor of A, it could give the perception that the tournament is feeding top players instead of giving everyone a chance to win. (The smallest payout for top 24 in any division is $200, so all qualifiers win more than the $175 entry fee.)

    #40 5 years ago

    No division is easy, this tournament is the best thing ever.

    #41 5 years ago

    Bowen, is there going to be a way to get a hold of the group picture that was taken Saturday night? It would be cool to have a nice copy of that to hang up in the basement arcade. Also, thanks again for everyone who worked to make Pinburgh such a great event. Well worth the price of admission and travel.

    #42 5 years ago

    Agreed on the pic. The version on Facebook is fairly low res.

    Ron...

    Quoted from geet84:

    Bowen, is there going to be a way to get a hold of the group picture that was taken Saturday night? It would be cool to have a nice copy of that to hang up in the basement arcade. Also, thanks again for everyone who worked to make Pinburgh such a great event. Well worth the price of admission and travel.

    #43 5 years ago

    Yes, the full-resolution photo will be made available soon. Thanks to Gene X Huang for taking it!

    #44 5 years ago

    Awesome, thanks again.

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