(Topic ID: 242657)

SOLVED: Pinbot solenoid issues (the game is going crazy and so am I lol)


By jmountjoy111

36 days ago



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  • 94 posts
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  • Latest reply 6 minutes ago by Blackbeard
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There are 94 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 36 days ago

I need some help as I’ve stared at the schematics till I’m blue in the face on this game. I have been going through this Pinbot that I bought off of eBay (won’t make that mistake again lol) and I keep running into issues. When I picked up the game it worked, but was hacked up and filthy. I shopped the game completely (it actually is a pretty nice game it’s just driving me nuts). When I hooked it all back up after the shop out the special solenoids locked on and blow the fuse. On top of the the flipper are active at all times. So with no game started they will fire when you press the button. Furthermore an entire row of lamps were locked on as well. I have shopped tons of games but still thought I may have been careless so I checked back through all the wires of the effected systems and saw nothing.

The game had some acid damage that had been “repaired” by the previous owner. I thought this could be the issue so I actually repaired it by removing all parts, sanded, neutralized, cleaned and repopulated all effected areas.

So now I’m kind of looking for the next step. I figured I’d start a thread here and see what people thought. I always seem to overlook something simple. Thank for the help in advance

#2 36 days ago

Adding some pictures of the mpu. The whole board and the repaired areas

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#3 36 days ago

You could always send the cpu to coin op cauldron.

It’s somewhat cheap to have it bullet proofed.

#4 36 days ago

I am hoping I can fix it. Should be something simple and I’m just missing it I believe. Might even still be in the playfield where I shopped it

On a related note. I tested all the special solenoids coils today and they all read between 3.8-4.2 ohm. I didn’t think a bad coil would cause them all to lock on but I thought I’d rule that out anyway lol

Still looking for any leads if any of you have any.

#5 36 days ago

All 6 special solenoids lock on at power up? Or is it just 2 and then the fuse burns?

#6 36 days ago

It’s all 6. Both slings, all three pop bumpers, and the left side 1251 flasher of the face.

#7 36 days ago

Look at the lower right corner of the schematics Sheet 1 of 4 - there's the common part between the flipper relay and the special solenoids. They're ALL locked on. Disconnect the special solenoids connector so you don't keep blowing fuses. 1-j19 for the grounds and 1-j18 for the inputs. This will also let you take a logic probe and probe every part of the circuit from that common point backwards (and forwards if needed) to see where the problem might lie.

Did you get under the chips to fix the corrosion as well?

#8 35 days ago

All 6 solenoids go through U-49. U-49 is next to the damage area. It may have been damaged to. In attract mode use logic probe and take some readings.

#9 34 days ago

Ok so I have a logic probe but I am not really sure how it all works. What do I do to check u49

#10 34 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

Look at the lower right corner of the schematics Sheet 1 of 4 - there's the common part between the flipper relay and the special solenoids. They're ALL locked on. Disconnect the special solenoids connector so you don't keep blowing fuses. 1-j19 for the grounds and 1-j18 for the inputs. This will also let you take a logic probe and probe every part of the circuit from that common point backwards (and forwards if needed) to see where the problem might lie.
Did you get under the chips to fix the corrosion as well?

I did get under the chips as well. I added sockets and replaced all the visibly affected chips.

I have a circuit breaker to save fuses but I will pull those plugs also.

#11 34 days ago

Red lead to 5 volt test point on CPU. Black lead on ground test point on CPU. Set TTL/CMOS to TTL. Probe each lead of U -49 and report back.

#12 34 days ago

Ok I got the following

Pin 1 nothing
2 nothing
3 low
4 low
5 high
6 high
7 low
8-14 high

I had 1j18 and 1j19 unplugged when testing

#13 34 days ago

So the U-49 chip is passing the signals through correctly, but the signals going into U-49 are wrong. The six input signals come from 3 different pia chips. Pins 1,3,5,9,11 and 13 all need to be low.

#14 34 days ago

So what should the next step be

#15 34 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

So what should the next step be

Start with the first Pia chip U-54. U-49 pin 1 and 13 go to Pia U-54 pin 19 and 39. If the Pia chip is good, then there is a broken trace from U-54 pin 39 to SR-19 pin 2. Also since you got a nothing signal ( 0.8 volts-2 volts) on pin 1 of U-49, the trace from U-54 to SR-19 pin 10 is not completely broken but has high resistance which needs to be zero resistance. Now if you find the traces to be fine then the PIA chip maybe bad, but I doubt that all 3 PIA have the same outputs bad. Use this as an example for all 6 inputs of U-49.

u-49 (resized).PNG
#16 33 days ago

I would get a copy of Leon Barre's test chip and put it in the game. Unplug all the connectors that go to lights, solenoids and switches. Leon's program will set all the outputs of all the PIA's(6821s) High and then Low about once each second. Test all the PIA's, then test all the outputs that the PIA's control. If the PIA pins are functioning correctly, but the output pins are locked high or low, then you have a problem in the components after the PIAs. Actually, I think there is a pretty good write up on pinwiki about Leon's test procedures, so there is no need for me to repeat it here.

Be sure that you have unplugged everything that is controlled by a PIA output before turning the game on. Leon's chip can do more harm than good if you don't.

#17 32 days ago

So I think I’m doing this right but I’m by no means a genius at this stuff. I have the schematic and by the looks of it these are the places those signals come from? Please correct me if I’m wrong

u54 pin 39 is high and pin 19 has no reading

U38 pin 19 is high and pin 39 is high

I’m not sure but looks like the other signal comes from sr19? Pin 4 is low Pin 7 is high

#18 32 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

u54 pin 39 is high and pin 19 has no reading

Quoted from jmountjoy111:

U38 pin 19 is high and pin 39 is high

Quoted from jmountjoy111:

I’m not sure but looks like the other signal comes from

The first pic shows that the signal goes to 4D1.
4D1 is page 4 of 4. Up and down is D. Left and right is 1.
So look for the signal in the upper right corner of page 4. Pic #2.
U-41 pins 19 and 39.

pb (resized).PNGpb1 (resized).PNG
#19 32 days ago

That makes sense now lol.

U41 pin 19 is high and 39 is low

#20 32 days ago

This is the only output that is correct, now you need to figure out if the other 5 outputs are bad pia chips or most likely bad traces due to acid damage. Could also be a bad solder job on the socket.

#21 32 days ago

FYI - the three PIA's in the middle of that board are counterfeits.
The date codes on them supposedly made 6+ years after Motorola discontinued them and about 5 years after Motorola stopped using the "M" logo.
They might be good... they might not. But would be a good place to look.

#22 32 days ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

FYI - the three PIA's in the middle of that board are counterfeits.
The date codes on them supposedly made 6+ years after Motorola discontinued them and about 5 years after Motorola stopped using the "M" logo.
They might be good... they might not. But would be a good place to look.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had no idea. I’ll order some new ones

#23 32 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

This is the only output that is correct, now you need to figure out if the other 5 outputs are bad pia chips or most likely bad traces due to acid damage. Could also be a bad solder job on the socket.

I will start checking the traces and the solder job. I’m assuming it is the traces and not the chips as the same problem was occurring before I rebuilt this section. However, since Ed pointed out the chips are counterfeit I’m just going to replace them anyways to be safe

#24 32 days ago

Double check SRC1-SRC5 and SRC7. It looks like there are 10-pin 9x resistor networks. They should be 9-pin 8x resistor networks.

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Repairing_Alkaline_Corrosion

#25 32 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Double check SRC1-SRC5 and SRC7. It looks like there are 10-pin 9x resistor networks. They should be 9-pin 8x resistor networks.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Repairing_Alkaline_Corrosion

I read all of that and I’m a little confused. The parts I ordered for SRC1-5 and 7 were the parts listed in the manual. I ordered them from either Great Plains or mouser.

#26 32 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

I read all of that and I’m a little confused. The parts I ordered for SRC1-5 and 7 were the parts listed in the manual. I ordered them from either Great Plains or mouser.

The OEM parts are SRC (bussed resistor network WITH capacitor). Pin 1 is +5, pins 2-9 are 4.7k/470pf and pin 10 is ground. If you order a 9x bussed resistor pin 10 is a 4.7k resistor and when you put it in it's connected to ground. You don't want that. It should be 8x 470pF capacitors to ground but the part is NLA. You want a 9-pin (8x) bussed resistor.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=4609X-101-472

#27 32 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The OEM parts are SRC (bussed resistor network WITH capacitor). Pin 1 is +5, pins 2-9 are 4.7k/470pf and pin 10 is ground. If you order a 9x bussed resistor pin 10 is a 4.7k resistor and when you put it in it's connected to ground. You don't want that. It should be 8x 470pF capacitors to ground but the part is NLA. You want a 9-pin (8x) bussed resistor.
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=4609X-101-472

I will order those too thanks

#28 26 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The OEM parts are SRC (bussed resistor network WITH capacitor). Pin 1 is +5, pins 2-9 are 4.7k/470pf and pin 10 is ground. If you order a 9x bussed resistor pin 10 is a 4.7k resistor and when you put it in it's connected to ground. You don't want that. It should be 8x 470pF capacitors to ground but the part is NLA. You want a 9-pin (8x) bussed resistor.
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=4609X-101-472

I ordered the src that you linked. The special solenoids locked before I rebuilt the battery damaged sections. Could these be the culprits to it continuing since I used the wrong ones?

Quoted from GRUMPY:

This is the only output that is correct, now you need to figure out if the other 5 outputs are bad pia chips or most likely bad traces due to acid damage. Could also be a bad solder job on the socket.

I checked the solder on the sockets and all seems well. I am in the process of checking all the traces. The solenoids locked on before I replaced the 6821 chips. I know Ed mentioned they are counterfeit and I plan on replacing them anyway but since it was doing the same thing with the old chips I’m guessing the problem is more than likely in the traces?

#29 26 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

I ordered the src that you linked. The special solenoids locked before I rebuilt the battery damaged sections. Could these be the culprits to it continuing since I used the wrong ones?

The SRCs are used is the display and sound sections. They aren't used in the special (switched) solenoid section.

With Grumpy helping you on this issue ... you're in the one of the best hands there are on Pinside.

I'm not so good with troubleshooting. I usually start at the TIP102/TIP122 and work back from there. If you want to test your PIAs use the Leon ROM. It's the place I usually start with on a board once I've done some work on it (such as repair alkaline damage).

#30 26 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

Could these be the culprits

Very unlikely.

Quoted from jmountjoy111:

I know Ed mentioned they are counterfeit and I plan on replacing them

Do this.

Quoted from jmountjoy111:

I’m guessing the problem is more than likely in the traces?

Easy to test for continuity between the pia chip and the resistor pack to know for sure.

#31 26 days ago

There is a blown out trace from pin 9 on sr20 to to zr8. It looked like the remnants of the trace were laying directly across the other legs of the resistor pack

3997CF3C-52D6-4F52-913D-8DEB0FD5F89E (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpg

#32 26 days ago

Any one know a source to buy legit 6821 chips.

#33 26 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

There is a blown out trace from pin 9 on sr20 to to zr8. It looked like the remnants of the trace were laying directly across the other legs of the resistor pack
[quoted image][quoted image]

So on this do I need to simply replace the zener diode and resistor pack and jump the broken trace or are there other parts that I need to check

#34 26 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

There is a blown out trace from pin 9 on sr20 to to zr8

Well this will fix SS#5 the right kicker.

Quoted from jmountjoy111:

So on this do I need to simply replace the zener diode and resistor pack and jump the broken trace

I would replace ZR-8 and test the resistor pack, then add a jumper.
If the trace was laying across sr-20 pins, this could have locked on all 6 SS coils. Now that its off retest the board to see if all six still lock on, maybe the pias are fine.

#35 26 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

If the trace was laying across sr-20 pins, this could have locked on all 6 SS coils. Now that its off retest the board to see if all six still lock on, maybe the pias are fine.

I have pulled the SRC 1-5 and 7 from the board and ordered the proper components from Great Plains. Can I test this without those installed? I don’t care to wait for them to come in it will just be a few days before they do.

#36 26 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

I have pulled the SRC 1-5 and 7 from the board and ordered the proper components from Great Plains.

The displays and sound will not work. But you need to replace zr-8 and the jumper before testing or cut the wire from SS #5 coil to keep it from locking on.

#37 26 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

The displays and sound will not work. But you need to replace zr-8 and the jumper before testing or cut the wire from SS #5 coil to keep it from locking on.

I got ya. I need to order that zener diode. I’ll get that ordered and put it all back together and test. It may be a couple of days before all the parts come in. I really do appreciate all the help

#38 26 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

I need to order that zener diode

You can cut the zener off to test, but you need the jumper for sure.

#39 26 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You can cut the zener off to test, but you need the jumper for sure.

Ok, I will go ahead and remove the zener and repair the trace and then test the board to see if all special solenoids still lock. I have that 4.7k ohm resistor pack. Would it be best to just go ahead and replace it while I’m working there to be safe?

#40 26 days ago

Wouldn't hurt.

#41 23 days ago

Ok so I removed zr8 and replaced sr20. I repaired the trace with a jumper. The special solenoids all still lock on. With the exception of the right sling which I assume won’t lock without zr8 installed. So is it safe to assume my next step is to replace all the 6821s?

#42 23 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

With the exception of the right sling

This is a step in the right direction.

Quoted from jmountjoy111:

So is it safe to assume my next step is to replace all the 6821s?

Test the rest of the ZRs with and ohm meter. Good reading is @5k ohms. When the trace shorted the resistor pack it may have caused damage to the rest of the ZRs.

#43 23 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Test the rest of the ZRs with and ohm meter. Good reading is @5k ohms. When the trace shorted the resistor pack it may have caused damage to the rest of the ZRs

Zr3, zr4, and zr5 test at 4.5k ohm

Zr6 tests at 12.3 ohm

Zr7 tests at 2.9k ohm

#44 23 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:Zr6 tests at 12.3 ohm

Zr7 tests at 2.9k ohm

Lift one lead off the board and retest the ZR to see if it is the ZR or is it somewhere else on the board.

#45 23 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Lift one lead off the board and retest the ZR to see if it is the ZR or is it somewhere else on the board.

With one leg removed they both test at approximately 180k ohm

#46 23 days ago

I was just checking some continuity of the pins on 1j18 and 1j19. I am getting continuity between pin 8 on 1j18 and ground. Pins 6,7, and 8 all show continuity and I think only 6 and 7 should. Is that correct

#47 21 days ago

I have replaced the SRC 1-5 and 7 with the suggested part. I also went ahead and replaced the zener diodes in question. I still have continuity to ground on 1j18 pin 8. I don’t really know what to do next. I haven’t put the board back in the game considering that pin is shorting.

#48 21 days ago
Quoted from jmountjoy111:

I still have continuity to ground on 1j18 pin 8.

If this is on the bench, then you need to lift a leg of C-75, ZR-8, pin-2 U-49 or pin 2 U-50 until the ground short goes away.

Quoted from jmountjoy111:

Pins 6,7, and 8 all show continuity and I think only 6 and 7 should. Is that correct

If the board is a 11a then pin 6 NC pin 7 NC. If its an 11A board then 6 and 7 to ground.

#49 21 days ago

The board is System 11A (traces for diagnostic LEDs not digit display).

#50 20 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The board is System 11A (traces for diagnostic LEDs not digit display).

Correct, I don't know why I didn't look back at the pics.

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