I've had this pinbot for Maybe 4 months now, and I don't recall it doing this tilt thing when I got it. Strange, because when I got it it would do random when I got it the guy told me it had a cracked header pin on the sound card, and gave me the resets. But I moved it, and mysteriously it hasn't been resetting. The resets weren't happening that often, maybe once a week? So when I moved the game to another spot, I figured it was low line voltage? or the A/C being on the same circuit? Anyway, so the random reset thing stopped, but now it's tilting. Fairly often too, if you played 3 games it would likely happen twice. In switch-mode it never displays any of the tilts - I have them taped off anyway so they aren't showing any tilts even if you dropped the damned thing off a bridge, but, in the middle of a game, Tilt-o-rama!

Maybe a bad diode? Or a switch wired up backwards!?! Heh.

It does seem odd to me that it NEVER seems to display a tilt EVEN when you're in edges mode, and you play a "game" - a little hard since if the balls fall into a saucer you have to eject them yourself, but still I played it it long enough i thought if it was going to trigger the tilt it would have done so at least once, but I never saw it.

Any thoughts on how to diagnose this? If it IS a bad diode- It's unlike issues I've seen before, since no other playfield switches or toys seem to be involved, like there is in other diode/rectangle situations. I'd think maybe it'd a connector issue - Since hell, everything else is connectors and plugs with these things, right? But which one would it be? It never tells me which SWITCH it says is tilting! Just during a game, it'll suddenly go "--Tilt--" and say, "Tilt! All Data Lost!"

Thanks in advance guys (and lady technicians)!

-B

I might be being a baby, I'm comfortable with Williams 3-7 boards now. Plug, unplug, replace headers, interconnectors, I replaced a 5101.

When I open this game up it's a completely different animal inside, and I'm always a little afraid I'm going to make the game worse off than it was when i started. After all, the problem is only intermittent at this point, and all I have to do is increase the game to 5 balls and problem solved! Well, not really..

Anyway, if anyone knows about debugging intermittent issues on - what is this? System 11? I guess I'll go research the hardware. If the amount of information is available about this system as was there for 80s era games, I should have no- er, less problems!

-Brian

Well, I picked this game back up again.. Finally put out the rest of the fires around the cave.. Anyway, I replaced the 20 pin DIP header, and the ribbon cable that the previous owner had purchased, but never installed. That didn't seem to fix anything! After playing with more of the wires in, and around the sound card, and associated boards, I see that the IDC end of the small 3 pin cable that goes between the sound card, and the daughter board had lost one of it's connections. Stupid IDC. I think there is a special place in hell for whomever came up with the IDC concept for anything OTHER than ribbon cables.

So, now the voice, and the sounds all play correctly. No need to wiggle the wires anymore. Unfortunately however it still has the background humming/hissing that seems to buzz in time with the lights as they flash. I would like to get to the bottom of that, but I have NO idea where to start. Any clues would be great.

Regarding the original thread topic, the random tilting, one thing I figured out is that it is NOT a slam tilt. Slam tilt resets and ends the current game. No matter how many people are playing. THIS tilt, the "TILT - All data lost" and accompanying screen message that sort of dances back and forth, this is the tilt that occurs from a standard plum, or one of the other "regular" tilts. Except however that I have it set for like 9 tilts! Whatever is causing this to tilt is somehow causing it and bypassing the normal 9 "Danger" tilts, before actually tilting for real. I TRIED to tilt a game last night, and I had to keep bumping the pumb bob, it wouldn't do it on the first, second, or eighth plum bob!

Does this give anyone a clue as to why my Pinbot keeps tilting even though I haven't so much as NUDGED it?

Oh- and as far as trying to figure out a preceeding sequence of events that lead to, or create the conditions for this tilt to exist, or happen, so far as led me to exactly nothing in terms of what the cause might be. Very frustrating, because there is no rhyme or reason. One game, it could tilt twice, ball 1 & 3, or- Maybe the game plays fine all night and doesn't do it! The other night it played several games without tilting, almost to give me a false sense of confidence!

-Brian

Now we're gettin' somewhere.

Uhh, did I mention this is a Rottendog board? Do the grounding, and other things you guys have mentioned go for that replacement board as well?

I've seen that broken thru-hole solder problem before. "A close friend of mine" used to have that happen- from time to time before he got his desoldering station.

This friend also had questions about girls, but I set him straight- a pin will never cheat on you, she may tilt, but not cheat or leave you.

I know Pinbot would be a lot more fun without the tilting, or the hissing.

-Brian

I can do that. I shall report back if I find something out of order. Last time, on my Meteor, it was that some numb-skull had wired the last target on a target bank up backwards. Anything that doesn't look like- all the rest of them.

Thanks for your consultation!

-Brian

A cursory inspection didn't reveal anything obvious.

I've began to document what is going on when it tilts, how many balls.. What was the last target etc. Oddly, I sort of got the idea that it might be the lane switch or something, because I was able to get it to tilt, all data lost, without ONCE giving the "awwwwww" pre-tilt noise.

Still, none of it makes any sense. Sometimes it seems like you can sit there with the ball in the shooter trough, and just by sitting there flipping the flippers and can get it to score all sorts of points! Eventually the visor will go down! Not because it's searching for it's ball but because it thinks you've scored the target shot!

-Brian

I was reading some posts about the random tilting problem that some of these system 11 games have. It's not just random tilts either, it's other random switch closures. Apparently it has to do with failing Resistor Networks? F14 has this problem as well. Except I have the Rottendog board.

Apparently when a bad diode goes in the switch matrix around, or on the same line with - the bad diode, you'll get all sorts of unpredictable behavior - random tilts, points being scored for things that weren't hit, etc.

-Brian

Yes. I believe this will be the area of problem- Tonight I did more recon, and I had thought it might be left flipper switch, but that didn't seem to cause the instant tilt. The left eye, which coincidentally happens to be on the same row as the plumb, and playfield tilts. I'm drawing my rectangle right now.

You know, I've seen this type of thing before, wierd diode mis-steps causing intermittent, or outright errors. But the intermittent nature of these errors is what I'm curious about, can anyone explain why they only seem to crop up once in a while? Typically these types of errors - being phantom - can seem to disappear for games at a time before rearing their heads. Can anyone explain WHY this is? Do they really work sometimes, and then all the sudden stop working? Or is it more something like certain phases of the moon have to be a certain way to get whatever the crazy thing is to trigger.

I'll be digging out the ohm meter next trip down there!

-Brian

Thank you very much for the description. Typically I think of electronic parts as either good or bad, I guess I didn't know they could "start" to go bad, since usually either your little electronic device works, or it doesn't. There is no grey, "Well, my calculator sort works sometimes.." It either does, or it doesn't. Maybe that owes itself to unless all the components are together working properly, the device won't work right.

-Brian

I just watched that video. I had seen it before when I had problems with my Galaxy, and thought it was SOME sort of a switch, or diode problem, but that turned out to be a mis-wire. On the Pinbot, though, the phatom switch is a tilt. Why is it that you don't get any tilt warnings at all???

Looking at the switch matrix, and it appears The Plumb Bob tilt - 1, Slam Tilt - 7, Left Eject - 25, and Visor Target 4 - 31, form a rectangle. Last night it tilted right as the ball entered his right eye..

So, the procedure I've seen described, and been explained, un-hook the switch matrix from the driver board, and then testing the diodes individually should find the problem. :O

-Brian
(Quietly chanting..
Hail Mary- Full of grace. The Lord is with thee.....)

I thought I found it. The diode on the left coin chute reads a funny reading. All the rest of them were 1 (or nothing) one direction, and like 584, or 605, in the 575 to 650 range. THIS diode reads 1, and 004 or something. It's definitely NOT reading the same as the rest of the diodes.

After replacement it still tilts. This is a little frustrating, but I guess any good mystery that you feel GOOD about when it's over involves a little footwork, research, backtracking, and so forth.

-Brian

Every time I think I have this problem licked, it tilts again.

If the game is playing, and you take the balls out, and then flip the left flipper wildly, points will begin to accumulate. From the right Visor, From one of the 10 points, the Exit Ramp, and the 20K vortex. Sometimes it seems to tilt when you hit the advance planet.

The vibration of the flipper seems to be what is causing the points to accumulate even though they aren't scored. The reason I say this, is becuase I put a piece of paper in the left lane change, and even though the lane change switch wasn't being made, other points were still accumulating. At first I thought- Well, if it's vibration causing the triggered switch, that's probably a mis-aligned blade switch, that makes contact when it shouldn't. Adjust it out a little. But not all of the switches being triggered are Blade switches. I know the rightmost Visor is, but the exit top orbit, and the 20K vortex are microswitches. You hear a definite >click!< when those are made. The 10 point switches are also Blade switches, and I guess those could be getting made by the vibration from the flipper. Which ever switch it is, is sort of a phantom-phantom! It's a phatom because of being triggered by a switch that wasn't supposed to trigger it, but the Trigger wasn't supposed to trigger that one either!

Oh the joys of switch matrix diagnosis.

Does anyone have a sort of plan of attack? I mean, on that video that was posted earlier, the guy lays it out pretty straight forward- If you have this, switch, and it's causing this phantom thing to happen. But in my case, the causality is not so discernable- It's probably a combination of a couple of things- and as always it make whever it is extra difficult to track down. Whenever I draw what I THINK is happening out on the switch matrix map it ends up looking like a maze. I've tested nearly ever diode on the game!

Can anyone explain why it is that these phantom switch readings never show up in switch edges? I can flip the flipper all day - I tried disabling the switch here too to see if the vibration alone might cause another one of the switches to fire, the 10s, the Trough exit, or the right Visor target to no avail - it only seems to f**k up in play mode, NOT in test mode. Isn't this the way of repair? You can't just fix it in the garage, and let it idle, you have to get it out on the freeway!

Oh, and I've tried the other way too- Tried firing the lane change switch without hitting the flipper switch, so with no vibration. I've never gotten it to tilt, and none of the other aforementioned switches fire. I ALSO tried manually actuating the flipper, and it WILL cause some of the other switches to fire, the Right Visor, and the 10 point I think, but I had to actuate the flipper by hand pretty briskly. I'm sure it wasn't nearly as much as the coil creates, but just gently actuating the flipper doesn't do it.

All of this is starting to lead me to believe that the Flipper Lane change switch isn't the problem, but just a red-herring, and I should maybe see what these other switches have in common. It seems like I tried actuating THOSE switches, the 10-points, and rt.visor, but was unable to get it to tilt.

I REALLY wish I could get it to tilt without some sort of physical prodding! It makes it seem like one of the tilts is still working! I perceive that the game tilts more often when I'm a little more rough, and slap happy with that left flipper. I don't know if it's true or not, I just feel like maybe it doesn't like me to be rough with it! Even after I've disabled all it's tilts!!

I am getting better with a soldering iron. From when I was a kid till about a year ago when I got into the hobby- and even for a while afterwards, my solder jobs were always big globby affairs, sort of a more-is-better approach. But I've come a long way, I know to be comfortable, not half hanging over the machine or something. I know to take my time and be patient. Nothing like rushing a soldering job to have it be unreliable. Just enough solder to do the job, give it a test pull to make sure it's secure, and on to the next one. Sometimes if the wires or short, and there aren't enough hands to hold the solder, the gun, and two wires you're trying to solder to a third lug, and you can just get reallly frusterated. I step back, take a deep breath. Maybe do something else for a while.

I got good equipment too. A soldering station with a sucker, and temp controlled iron. One of the best $150 I've ever spent. Replacing header pins now is really no big deal. I Hesitate to call the process "Fun" however it's day and night compared to the way it used to be with a shitty soldering iron, and solder wick. Definitely not the best setup.

Sooo, I'll make a list, and start replacing diodes. Maybe I can do several of the easy ones, and find the problem! Even the diodes on the switches on the visor, which moves up and down, those aren't THAT hard to get to.

-Brian

Well, it's been two days since it tilted.

A couple days ago, after one you fine gentlemen suggested that I just bite the bullet and start replacing diodes, the ball hit the "advance planet" and tilted. This only seems to happen when you're a good way into a game.. So anyway, I decided to start with the Advance Planet since I had seen that switch cause the game to tilt before - but not reliably. I wasn't counting on that fixing it since I had no other indication that that switch was the cause of the larger tilt issue. But, after I changed it I haven't had another tilt for two days now!

-B

It tilted yesterday, and I started to worry except that I remembered I had turned the tilts back on since I am pretty confident that the problem has been solved.

There is nothing saying it couldn't be multiple diodes that had failed, right? In the video posted earlier the guy talks about that sometimes a bad diode won't cause enough of a problem to be noticed.. Well if ANOTHER diode goes bad, I can see how that could create all sorts of what appear to be false-positives or whatever because of having TWO intermittent causes for the problem.

I sure hope it's fixed!!!!

-bdPinbot-tiltless

I Believe the problem is fixed. Like I said, it tilted once since I replaced Advance Planet's diode. I suppose it could be a multiple-bad-diode situation, but things seem very stable in the game now. It did tilt on me once the other day, but I'm pretty sure it's because I was actually tilting it.

But to revisit that diagram- The rectangles that are create by the advance planet, and each of the tilts are many-many. I believe after I disconnected the playfield from the Driver-board, and tested each of those diodes, they all came back as fine - including the advance planet diode. Another thing, I don't think the slam-tilt was involved, because the slam tilt has completely different outcomes than the standard tilts, which, after you tilt them 5 times or whatever you'll get the standard "Tilt all data lost" If you hit the Slam tilt switch, it's over. Period. No noise, no "awwwww," do not collect $200. And the only reason I wasn't hearing the standard "awwww" 3 times before it tilted is because the the tilt switch had already been hit errantly by the switch matrix 300 times, causing a tilt before I ever hear my first "awwww."

No telling what is going on with this game, but it tilted for the umpteenth time RIGHT as it hit the Advance Planet button, so I decided that if I'm going to start replacing diodes, this would be the one to start with. Since I have it hasn't tilted since.

-Brian