(Topic ID: 199274)

Pinbot ramp UP firing constantly - switches not registering?


By Plumonium

2 years ago



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  • 56 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by CharlestonSCPins
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There are 56 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 2 years ago

Hi guys,

Really need your help here:

When I start a game, the ramp UP coil keeps firing every seconds for 5-7 times then stops. During a game, it will sometimes do the same thing. If while it's firing, if I manually activates another coil (ex: slinghsot) the ramp UP coil stop firing.

I can hear a relay clicking every time it fires. About that relay. I replaced the 100uf capacitor on that board during my restoration because it looked bulged and figured I should do it while the playfield was out of the game. The thing is my replacement was already bulged and leaking from running a few tests. I bought a new capacitor today and same thing, just leaving the game on for 5 minutes and the capacitor started leaking and got super hot. I could hear and see the gas bubbles coming out of the top. May be it's not related but it does not look good. I'm confident the capacitor is installed with correct polarity.

Finally, in test mode, the "Ramp Down" switch and the "Score Energy" target test OK but during a game, they do not register. They are on the same column next to each other. Might it depends on the above relay position? Actually I should says that they test ok when I power the game but after a game as started, if I go back to test mode, the switch won't register anymore. Again, the relay?

Thanks for helping!

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#2 2 years ago

High temp Nichicon UVZ series. Those are a better grade cap than the originals.
Check the voltage on that board versus voltage rating of replacement cap.

#3 2 years ago

How about a bigger pic of the relay so I can see the wires.

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

How about a bigger pic of the relay so I can see the wires.

Will do!

#5 2 years ago

I am not aware of Pinbot using snubber relays on coils like HS and F-14. I also don't see this marked in the manual, but that doesn't mean anything. I may look at my own game tomorrow to compare with your pic of yours.

#6 2 years ago

Picture added: It's at the bottom right end side. Next to the GI relay. I don't see why they are related either but I can hear the relay click everytime the ramp try to go up. I think the relay should be for the flashers looking at the wires.

Which makes me think, why would the ramp not catch up? only if the "Down" smaller coil was activated as well? I'll grab a video as well.

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#7 2 years ago

Again Grumpy, thanks for doing this, you are life saver!

#8 2 years ago

This is a A/C relay. So this relay switches power from the flashers to the coil. The ramp up is solenoid 5a which has power turned on and off by this relay. If your switch for the ramp is not working correctly the ramp will try to fire each time the A/C relay switches.

#9 2 years ago

What are the markings for the cap you installed?

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

What are the markings for the cap you installed?

100uf/100v. Rated at 105 degrees. I believe it's the correct one.

#11 2 years ago

What should I check for next?

#12 2 years ago

It looks like someone replaced the relay with the wrong type (picture looks like a socketed relay, where the correct part would be through hole soldered) I would suspect the connections between the relay and board BUT if everything else is working in terms of A/C relay, its probably not the problem.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from gutz:

It looks like someone replaced the relay

Yes, I think the relay was replaced before I got the game.

Quoted from gutz:

BUT if everything else is working in terms of A/C relay, its probably not the problem.

I think worth mentioning is that before, during games, the ramp would not go down right away when it should. It would stay UP until another coil fires. Similar to what I was describing earlier when I said that activating another coil would stop the repeated firing of the UP ramp. Before, it would not do what it's doing now but I could say that it was kind of acting up.

#14 2 years ago

Let me grab a picture of the said relay.
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Also what could cause the capacitor(s) to overheat and leak if not the polarity?

#15 2 years ago

That relay will work fine. I wanted to look at my relays in my Pinbot just to be sure, and none of them have the capacitor installed on the board. I would assume you may have gotten a bad capacitor as it looks to be installed correctly. There shouldn't be more than 32 volts on it and it is rated for 100 volts so that shouldn't be a problem. I would just remove it.

#16 2 years ago

Some says that there is another variant of that board that uses a 2.2uf/250v capacitor.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/f14-snubber-board-resistor-value

I installed 2 different capacitor from 2 different brand and they both failed? Suspicious. Do you have the 150 ohms resistor installed as well at R1?

#17 2 years ago

why does it look like the 28v and ground are shorted together? i figured that is not the case but look like they need cleaned up a bit to avoid a potential short in the future.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from Syco54645:

why does it look like the 28v and ground are shorted together? i figured that is not the case but look like they need cleaned up a bit to avoid a potential short in the future.

THey are shorted. That is how these snubber board are mounted. At least for the flashers.

May be someone replaced a flasher relay board to make it a snubber relay board and should have not kept the wires shorted?

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

THey are shorted. That is how these snubber board are mounted. At least for the flashers.
May be someone replaced a flasher relay board to make it a snubber relay board and should have not kept the wires shorted?

Thats interesting, can someone who understands these better than me explain how you can have +28 tied to ground? Im always trying to learn more and this confuses me.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

Thats interesting, can someone who understands these better than me explain how you can have +28 tied to ground? Im always trying to learn more and this confuses me.

When Williams used this relay board as a snubber relay this ( GND ) spot is actually connected to ground. But in reality this is the Common terminal of the relay connections. When Williams used the same board for the AC relay they solder splashed the +28 volt terminal to the GRD terminal and connected orange wires ( c side power) to the coil terminal. This is labeled coil because as a snubber relay it connects to the coil but in reality it is the NO terminal. The NC terminal is one of the few that is labeled correctly. The brown wire is the a side power wire. The DRV terminal is for activating the relay and is connected to the CPU board. To test the relay you can ground this terminal and the relay should activate if it good. So long story short this is wired correctly.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Do you have the 150 ohms resistor installed as well at R1?

No my machine has the version with no cap and no resistor. Ignore my earlier post my head was up my ass.

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

Thats interesting, can someone who understands these better than me explain how you can have +28 tied to ground? Im always trying to learn more and this confuses me.

It's not actually ground, it's a misinterpretation of the silkscreened label on the board. Technically it should have been labeled "COM" meaning common point. See the relay connection on the far right of this diagram.

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#23 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

I replaced the 100uf capacitor on that board during my restoration because it looked bulged and figured I should do it while the playfield was out of the game. The thing is my replacement was already bulged and leaking from running a few tests. I bought a new capacitor today and same thing, just leaving the game on for 5 minutes and the capacitor started leaking and got super hot. I could hear and see the gas bubbles coming out of the top. May be it's not related but it does not look good. I'm confident the capacitor is installed with correct polarity.

Could these caps be from the same manufacture batch and had the shrink sleeve installed wrong causing you to install them incorrectly? This can be avoided by using axial caps on this board.

#24 2 years ago

Can I test the polarity of the capacitor before installed them?

#25 2 years ago

There are 3 different version of that relay board.
On my pinbot ( and any pics I have seen) the AC select relay is the C-11232-1 relay board, not the C-11232 relay snubber board you are using.

Quoted from bobukcat from the F14 snubber thread
Most likely cause of an electrolytic capacitor getting hot and leaking is reverse voltage across it. Are you sure the wires haven't been switched and that the cap is installed in the properly polarity?

Which is what is probably happening to the capacitor on the snubber board.

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#26 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Can I test the polarity of the capacitor before installed them?

Yes with a Oscope. You may also be able to check resistance from the metal top to one of leads. The metal case should be negative.

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from chipleader:

not the C-11232 relay snubber board you are using.

Should removing the c1 capacitor, d2 diode and r1 resistor do the trick? Assuming the relay is fine.

Looking at the back of my board, all the above parts were added at some point, only diode d1 looks original.

Can it make it worst?

#28 2 years ago

All 3 on my Pinbot are just like this.

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#29 2 years ago

Look at Grumpys pic above. There is no cap on the A/C relay board. Now look at the silkscreen for the cap. If you were to install a cap on this board in the polarity as marked, you'll see you are putting the positive voltage on the negative side of the electrolytic cap.

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#30 2 years ago

Nice catch wayout440 they are reversed for the snubber board labeling. As an A/C relay everything is ass backward. Also as a A/C relay none of this needed anyway.

#31 2 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

When Williams used this relay board as a snubber relay this ( GND ) spot is actually connected to ground. But in reality this is the Common terminal of the relay connections. When Williams used the same board for the AC relay they solder splashed the +28 volt terminal to the GRD terminal and connected orange wires ( c side power) to the coil terminal. This is labeled coil because as a snubber relay it connects to the coil but in reality it is the NO terminal. The NC terminal is one of the few that is labeled correctly. The brown wire is the a side power wire. The DRV terminal is for activating the relay and is connected to the CPU board. To test the relay you can ground this terminal and the relay should activate if it good. So long story short this is wired correctly.

Quoted from wayout440:

It's not actually ground, it's a misinterpretation of the silkscreened label on the board. Technically it should have been labeled "COM" meaning common point. See the relay connection on the far right of this diagram.

Awesome guys, thank you

#32 2 years ago

Looks like someone had a problem with the original A/C relay board and swapped out a snubber board thinking they functioned the same?!

#33 2 years ago

Nice, I feel we are getting somewhere Thank you some much.

So the correct instructions from here are:

Remove the capacitor, remove the resistor, remove the diode d2?

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Nice, I feel we are getting somewhere Thank you some much.
So the correct instructions from here are:
Remove the capacitor, remove the resistor, remove the diode d2?

You got it.

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#35 2 years ago

Will do and report back.

If that is it, I can't believe I had the game working rigged like that for 2 years.

#36 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Will do and report back.
If that is it, I can't believe I had the game working rigged like that for 2 years.

I'm surprised the cap didn't explode and create a lovely confetti shower in the cabinet.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

If that is it, I can't believe I had the game working rigged like that for 2 years.

This was a problem but this is not the answer to your ramp issue. I think you need to adjust the ramp release and possibly adjust the down switch.

#38 2 years ago

So, took out the extra hardware out and I get the same behavior. So it did not fix it as Grumpy sadly expected.

From time to time, in test mode, the "Ramp Down" switch and the "Energy Value" stand-up target won't register. Sometimes they do.

During game mode, they never register, thus probably why the ramp is acting up try to "go down" (by first going up)

I'm calling out those 2 targets because they are connected by the same wires as in the picture:

What could cause those target to register only sometimes and definitely never during a game.

They are the only 2 to do that.

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#39 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

From time to time, in test mode, the "Ramp Down" switch and the "Energy Value" stand-up target won't register. Sometimes they do.

Since both switches are on green/blue wire and both switches have 2 wires for green and white it cant be a broken wire or something else wouldn't work. So whats left, bad diode, dirty switch, out of adjustment or a poor solder connection at the switch.

It only takes a few minutes, I would replace both diodes and adjust both switches.

#40 2 years ago

To be clear. When I go in test mode and they register, they register 100% of the time, I could click them for hours and it's fine. If i close the game and start the test again, they will register 0% of the time. It's one or the other, not partially working. I doubt it's about adjusting.

It's like something does not get "initialized" properly. Still, I'll replace the diode and reflow the connections.

#41 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

If i close the game and start the test again, they will register 0% of the time.

Close what?? The playfield? The coin door? If you are in test mode and it works 100% and then you move something physically and test mode then works 0% sounds like you have a physical connection problem somewhere, broken wire etc...

#42 2 years ago

To be more clear sorry: If I turn off the game and turn it back on.

Bad translation from a french canadian

#43 2 years ago

What could cause switches to register in test but not during a game?

#44 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

What could cause switches to register in test but not during a game?

The first thing to come to mind is to make sure you are using a ball to test switch operation only - not a finger or something else. There are two types of tests as well, so check both switch edge test and switch level tests.

Switches operated by other mechanisms, such as solenoids/ramps/levers should be only activated by those devices as well. Sometimes manually moving these items with your hands doesn't make the travel of those mechanisms exactly the same as in game operation.

If it is nothing simple like that, it could be an upper level logic problem.

#45 2 years ago

I know, I know. Actuating them manually won't register believe me, it's like they are ignored.

#46 2 years ago

I would perform the following tests to confirm if this is a playfield or board problem.

Testing the Switch Columns (all system 11 revisions).
To test the switch columns, do the following:

Remove the backglass and fold down the display to gain access to the CPU board.
Unplug the connectors at 1J8 and 1J10 (lower portion of the CPU board).
Turn the game on.
After the game boots, go to the Test menu's "Switch Levels" test.
Connect your alligator test lead to pin 9 of 1J10. Pin 9 is the left most pin, as facing the board.
On the other end of the alligator test lead, clip on a 1N4004 diode, with the banded end away from the alligator lead. Touch the banded end of the diode to pin 1 of 1J8. Again, pin 1 is the right most pin, as facing the board.
The display should show switch 1 is closed.
Move the diode/alligator lead on 1J8 to the next pin. The display should show switch 9 is closed.
Repeat the previous step, until pin 9 of 1J8. Switches 1, 9, 17, 25, 33, 41, 49, 57 should be closed on the display as you move forward, pin 1 to pin 9, on connector 1J8. Note pin 6 is a key pin, and should be skipped.

Testing the Switch Rows (all system 11 revisions).
To test the switch rows, do the following:

Remove the backglass and fold down the display to gain access to the CPU board.
Unplug the connectors at 1J8 and 1J10 (lower portion of the CPU board).
Turn the game on.
After the game boots, go to the Test menu's "Switch Levels" test.
Connect your alligator test lead to pin 1 of 1J8. Pin 1 is the right most pin, as facing the board.
On the other end of the alligator test lead, clip on a 1N4004 diode, with the banded end towards the alligator lead. Touch the non-banded end of the diode to pin 1 of 1J10. Again, pin 1 is the right most pin, as facing the board.
The display should show switch 1 is closed.
Move the diode/alligator lead on 1J10 to the next pin. The display should show switch 2 is closed.
Repeat the previous step, until pin 9 of 1J10. Switches 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 should be closed on the display as you move forward, pin 1 to pin 9, on connector 1J10. Note pin 4 is a key pin, and should be skipped.

#47 2 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

I would perform the following tests to confirm if this is a playfield or board problem.

Thanks wayout440. I will do that when I come to it this week-end.

I kept thinking about it last night and I have more piece of information to share:

During my restoration, one of the wire broke off from the motor stop switch. I looked at my pictures and put the wire back on. But let's pretend for a minute I hooked the wire at the wrong place.

When I turn ON the machine and the visor goes up and hit the stop switch, everything is OK and every switches test OK.

However, if the Visor is DOWN (when I start a game, the visor always goes down) and it actuates the stop switch that is wrongly connected, may be that is when the daisy chain connection to the 2 problematic switches (RampDown & Energy Value) stop working.

Does that theory hold the road? I need to verify that tonight...

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Thanks wayout440. I will do that when I come to it this week-end.
I kept thinking about it last night and I have more piece of information to share:
During my restoration, one of the wire broke off from the motor stop switch. I looked at my pictures and put the wire back on. But let's pretend for a minute I hooked the wire at the wrong place.
When I turn ON the machine and the visor goes up and hit the stop switch, everything is OK and every switches test OK.
However, if the Visor is DOWN (when I start a game, the visor always goes down) and it actuates the stop switch that is wrongly connected, may be that is when the daisy chain connection to the 2 problematic switches (RampDown & Energy Value) stop working.
Does that theory hold the road? I need to verify that tonight...

Very, very possible that this is your issue.

Easy to find out. Start a game and get to where the switch isn't registering. Immediately put the game in switch test without turning it off.

Does the switch work the same?

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#49 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

During my restoration, one of the wire broke off from the motor stop switch. I looked at my pictures and put the wire back on. But let's pretend for a minute I hooked the wire at the wrong place.

Well then take a pic of it.

#50 2 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Does that theory hold the road? I need to verify that tonight...

They are all on the same switch column, so this is very possible.

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