(Topic ID: 243922)

Pinbot - Not Working

By jafoley

4 years ago


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3J2_voltage_test (resized).jpg
old_ps (resized).jpg
dead_score (resized).jpg
new_board (resized).jpg
pinbot inside backbox (resized).png
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#1 4 years ago

None of the scoring LEDs in front are illuminated. Here is a description of the LEDS on the MPU. The top LED named "Blanking" is off. Underneath that the "5 VDC" LED is solid on. Underneath that the Diagnostic LED continuously flashes on and off. If I understand the Williams system 9-11 page (added below) the blanking light should remain on but is not. I have been able to cycle though the diagnostic even though there is no display message visible, reset ribbons, looked for loose connections, visually checked fuses, verified continuity at the battery holder, and activating the SW1 & SW 2 switches to no avail.

Apparently, continuous blinking of the diagnostic LED is expected behavior but I don't think the "Blanking" off is. How can I proceed to repair this game?

Normal MPU boot behavior for games with 3 LEDs on the MPU is for the "+5 VDC" LED to light first and stay on, then a split second later, the blanking LED will light and stay on. At the same time that the blanking LED lights, the diagnostic LED will begin to blink at a fairly rapid pace with a 50% duty cycle (equal durations of the LED being on then off). The blanking LED will continue to remain on.

3 weeks later
#2 4 years ago

Just to rewind here... are you saying the game boots up and plays normally, but the displays are not working? When you say "scoring LEDs" I'm guessing you mean the displays, but those aren't LED unless you installed something like "Pinscore" displays to replace the originals.

#3 4 years ago

Mine did this awhile ago where the game played fine but no displays. It was the power supply. Swapped in a power supply and the displays came back on. I still haven't looked at the original power supply to see what happened with it.

#4 4 years ago
Quoted from Azfalconfixer:

Mine did this awhile ago where the game played fine but no displays. It was the power supply. Swapped in a power supply and the displays came back on. I still haven't looked at the original power supply to see what happened with it.

Your high voltage section likely had failed. Test the -100 voltages to confirm. If they are non-existent, then a high voltage rebuild would be needed.

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from jafoley:

None of the scoring LEDs in front are illuminated. Here is a description of the LEDS on the MPU. The top LED named "Blanking" is off. Underneath that the "5 VDC" LED is solid on. Underneath that the Diagnostic LED continuously flashes on and off. If I understand the Williams system 9-11 page (added below) the blanking light should remain on but is not. I have been able to cycle though the diagnostic even though there is no display message visible, reset ribbons, looked for loose connections, visually checked fuses, verified continuity at the battery holder, and activating the SW1 & SW 2 switches to no avail.

Can you post a picture of the whole MPU board?

#6 4 years ago

The game powers up, the play field lights illuminate but not the score panels (what ever these are - not led evidently). Seems like the sound is available at certain times during testing. You can see the new ribbon I tried in the photo to no avail as it seemed the next cheapest thing to try and the old ribbon was really getting crushed with the score panel opening and closing on it.
In the second photo below I believe the power supply can be seen more or less in the center of the photo? To the right of that board is a much newer looking board with the 2 big black caps. On that board there are two green connectors on the left. Those green connectors each have an led illuminated "grd" for ground that is light (expect that is normal good).
CIMG1213 (resized).JPGCIMG1213 (resized).JPG
CIMG1212 (resized).JPGCIMG1212 (resized).JPGCIMG1211 (resized).JPGCIMG1211 (resized).JPGCIMG1210 (resized).JPGCIMG1210 (resized).JPG

#7 4 years ago

Can you add credits, or start and play a game?

The first thing I would do is check the voltages coming off your power supply. Check this out and start with the suggested tests:

http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Display_problems

#8 4 years ago

You seem to be missing a ribbon cable connection to J22 of the MPU board. Did you disconnect it to take the pictures? The red stripe on the ribbon cable is pin 1 and should be plugged in to match pin 1 labeled on the MPU, which pin 1 is on the right in this case. pinbot inside backbox (resized).pngpinbot inside backbox (resized).png

#9 4 years ago

Your power supply is the larger board in the top right corner with the large hear sink.

The new board is a nice mod which is an Inkochnito bridge board. This is adding protection between the transformer and the boards and has replaced the two stock bridge rectifiers.

Sounds to me like your game has GI only and is not booting. Start at your power supply and check the fuses for continuity and correct value. Then test your voltages and go from there. Your caps are original and even if its not the issue they should be replaced.

#10 4 years ago

Seems replacing power supply would be a good idea at this point. Haven't been able to locate one. Need a replacement for 11A. Are these available anywhere (pinscore pj-8345-hv)?

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from jafoley:

Seems replacing power supply would be a good idea at this point. Haven't been able to locate one. Need a replacement for 11A. Are these available anywhere (pinscore pj-8345-hv)?

Easier and cheaper to just rebuild the current power supply, if that's even the issue. You should probably verify its a problem before spending time or money on it. If you have a multi meter and a few minutes, you can do the tests in the link in my above post to see if your power supply is outputting the proper voltages (or if any fuses are blown).

Do you know how to use the meter, and do you have experience with soldering? Rebuilding the power supply is often the easiest and cheapest board work you'll find overall. You can buy the kit a bunch of places, including eBay:

ebay.com link: Power Supply Capacitor Repair Kit for Williams System 7 11A pinball machines

#13 4 years ago

Installed the new board. Looks good.
new_board (resized).jpgnew_board (resized).jpg

#14 4 years ago

Result bad.

dead_score (resized).jpgdead_score (resized).jpg
#15 4 years ago

New board also missing a connector shown here on the old power supply board. Wonder what won't work if / when this plays again.

old_ps (resized).jpgold_ps (resized).jpg
#16 4 years ago

What next? Replace the display score https://xpinpinball.com/product/xp-wms10877/

#17 4 years ago

Need to test the voltages on the power supply.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Your high voltage section likely had failed. Test the -100 voltages to confirm. If they are non-existent, then a high voltage rebuild would be needed.

The voltages were measuring zero so I ordered a new Power Supply and replaced the old one. I can't imagine these would still be the issue after the new install. Guess I still supposed to test them.

#19 4 years ago

3J2_voltage_test (resized).jpg3J2_voltage_test (resized).jpg
Testing 3J2 pin 1 & 3. Result - 0 - no reading. The red probe was attached to pin 1 and then 3. The black probe was touched to ground (screw & material surrounding the screw on the board) indicated with the black arrow. No reading. The meter is set to 200 V. I also moved it to 20 V after nothing at 200 and still got nothing.

The system 11 wiki warns against installing a new (or repaired) power supply if the F1 fuse is blowing. The F1 fuse is for the display. Since the F1 fuse has never blown I installed the new power supply.

If the test is done correctly it seems still have power supply issue.

#20 4 years ago

There are actually test points right on the board itself I believe. Look at the board, you should see little round metal looking test points labeled things like 12V, -12V, +5V, 91VDC, etc.

Did you actually test your incoming voltage off the transformer itself yet? You might want to start there if not. Make sure everything coming into the power board is good, then check beyond that. A brand new board like that is unlikely to have issues.

#21 4 years ago

I found more information about system 11 game repair here

System 11a, 11b, 11c CPU board LED's.
On system 11a, 11b, and 11c CPU boards, there are three LED's about in the middle of the CPU board. For a working game, here are what these three LED's should be doing when the game is turned on and in attract mode:

Left LED (labeled "+5 vdc"): shows that +5 vdc is present. This LED should always be on.
Middle LED (labeled "diagnostics"): should be continually flashing.
Right LED (labeled "blanking"): shows the blanking circuit is working, and should always be on.

on my game the "blanking" LED is barely lit. The other two LEDs are much brighter. Wonder if that's normal. Wish had observed CPU board behave normally before the trouble started

#22 4 years ago

I wouldn't worry about the CPU board or LEDs until you've tested all your voltages. Once you know your incoming and outgoing voltages are all good, then worry about the next steps.

#23 4 years ago

Transformer in and out? The heavy component at the bottom of the game? Not finding instructions on how to do this on any williams repair pages yet. Hmmm ... in and out from power supply. I did a test of voltage on the power supply testing 3J2 pin 1 & 3. Result - 0.

#24 4 years ago

Find the same color wires coming out of the back of the transformer and stick the voltmeter on the backside of the connector pins. Just makes sure your meter leads do not touch together, or you shall see some sparks. If still zero, then pull that connector apart and check to see if you have burnt pins and reseat it. thumbnail_20190629_1128451 (resized).jpgthumbnail_20190629_1128451 (resized).jpg

#25 4 years ago

Cool. Set DMM to 2000mV?

I'm having trouble getting a consistent reading so I'm off to get another 9V battery to replace mine. Not sure how old the current battery is.

Back to retest in a few.

#26 4 years ago

Find the same color wires as you did for the 3J2 connector but at the transformer. Should be about 100v so set for 200v.

Yes. A low battery can give you false readings on your meter.

#27 4 years ago

Probed same colored wire to wire
Probed wire and ground
0v for all tests for all wires

#28 4 years ago

Can you post a picture of the input and output of your transformer wiring? I am wondering if it may not be wired for 120Vac.

Also, are the 2 fuses on the power supply actually blown? If not, problem must be at the transformer/wiring.

#29 4 years ago

Maybe post a picture of exactly where you're attaching your leads and your meter setting, just in case. If you're getting no readings out of your transformer at all, you shouldn't be seeing anything alive in the game (like LEDs or otherwise on the boards). I assume you tested to make sure you have 120VAC coming into the game/transformer from the plug? If not, do that now.

#30 4 years ago

Make sure the meter is set for AC ~ volts, not VDC ===.

#31 4 years ago

I can hear a slight hum, and the lights on the table are lit. I moved the switch to right of off and set to the red V which is AC. I was on the left side testing DC voltage.

#32 4 years ago

Unless you show me your DMM with it's settings and which plugs the probes are placed in the DMM, and how you do one test where each probe gets placed I don't think I know enough to do this properly. I caused a spark by placing one of the probes into the A port and then testing across 2 wires so that's got me scared I don't know what I"m doing. I can follow exact instructions obviously. If I could just know how to do one reading correctly I could check them all. The one pin got a bit of a black spot where it sparked but it was very momentary so I can't imagine any permanent damage would result from that. I moved the red probe on the DMM back into VQMA from 10A (probably should not have placed it into 10A, was supposed to move dial from Vdc to Vac). Are you concerned yet, hehe. I'm trying. Still no readings other than 0 so must still be doing it wrong.

#34 4 years ago

checking out you tube videos on testing a transformer. Looks like I have the DMM set up correctly. Probably just a matter of knowing where the two probes should be placed.
Black com
Red VQMA
Dial 200 V ac

#35 4 years ago

Success. Game is playing again !!!

#36 4 years ago

What did you do to fix the display issue? Bad connection at the transformer?

#37 4 years ago

The new board fixed the display issue. Set me back 160 with a new connector cable and shipping. Seemed like a no brainer since board more efficient, less heat, and new. Most likely the old board's high voltage output was failing because that drives the display but have not tested that.

My bad luck was the new XPin board. Fuse f4 was empty. That is, it looked complete but there was no element across. Since it was a .25 Amp it's hard to see even when present. You can almost tell looking at the picture above where testing new board with yellow DMM. Also, when the board arrived I had to replace f2 with a different amperage fuse because the board gets shipped to support a different set of pinball games. Pinbot takes a higher amperage rated f2 fuse. Also, when I ordered I asked them to send an an extra 10amp fuse so I could swap out f2 when it arrived but they did not. Had to buy an f2 and you have to be careful if you do that at home depot like I did. There are several to choose from. I couldn't tell / missed that the f4 fuse was empty after it arrived. I also move my batteries to the back side of the display while doing the repairs. I have a really, really nice, healthy Pinbot btw.

Even more wierd luck, the f4 fuse on the new board is the high voltage component which is different fuse than the old board. So, since f4 had a defective fuse, after doing the swap, no display score again! Oh man.

If you need help determining your issue I can help you with that. The first think I had to learn was the back side of the transformer is AC, while the back side of the Power Supply is DC. Once you have that figured out you can actually start to troubleshoot various parts of your game using a DMM.

Now, although I'm not entirely certain about all the details in this next paragraph, my pinbot has the mod that reduces problems with transformer harness http://home.kpn.nl/p.koch3/bridge_board.htm. You can see that board installed in photos above. Probably want that mod in your game.

#38 4 years ago

It would be good to send XPin your feedback about the fuses.

If you don't have an interest in rebuilding your high voltage and replacing the capacitors as a spare board, it is worth selling it to someone. Some people do prefer all original boards.

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