(Topic ID: 222268)

Pinbot - No Speech


By MaxAsh

10 months ago



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  • 40 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 hours ago by MaxAsh
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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Pinbot_Sound-Speech_MPU - Copy (resized).jpg
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#1 10 months ago

Hello All - Like several others, I've run into a lack of speech with my recent Pinbot purchase. I have a F-14 as well, so I tried swapping the ribbon cable with no effect. I took the U4, U21, U22 ROMs to a friend who verified them good. We wiped them and re-burned them just in case, still no change. It seems like a common suggestion next is to look at the CVSD chip and replace it, but I'm wondering what else I could try first before going that route.

Since I have the F-14, any swapping I could do that would help me do some testing? Maybe try the F-14 Sound ROMs in Pinbot and see if the speech from F-14 plays? Or vice-versa, putting Pinbot ROMs in the F-14? I haven't swapped ROMs between games before like that... I'm assuming I'd just take the 3 ROMs I mentioned and swap them?

I'm happy to try various suggestions. Just figured with the F-14 around, worth doing whatever else I could think of before ordering anything, removing the CVSD, etc.

Thanks!

#2 10 months ago

Where various sounds originate in S11 games is sometimes tricky.
I'd swap your F14 sound board with the Pinbot ROMs into your Pinbot.
See if the problem clears or not.

I've only seen one CVSD go bad.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#3 10 months ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Where various sounds originate in S11 games is sometimes tricky.
I'd swap your F14 sound board with the Pinbot ROMs into your Pinbot.
See if the problem clears or not.
I've only seen one CVSD go bad.

Okay, not a bad idea, that's easier than the whole MPU side. I'll try that and see what happens and report back, thanks Chris H

#4 10 months ago

I haven't had a chance to swap the boards/ROMs, but I did notice something in the manual today about checking the Gray and Gray-Green transformer "secondary" wires for 19.4VAC. There wasn't much detail beyond that, but I tested those two wires at the connector near the transformer, and also at where they arrive on the Power Supply, and I'm getting 10.4VAC on both. I'm using the Gray-White as the Common.

Thoughts?

#5 10 months ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I haven't had a chance to swap the boards/ROMs, but I did notice something in the manual today about checking the Gray and Gray-Green transformer "secondary" wires for 19.4VAC. There wasn't much detail beyond that, but I tested those two wires at the connector near the transformer, and also at where they arrive on the Power Supply, and I'm getting 10.4VAC on both. I'm using the Gray-White as the Common.
Thoughts?

AC doesn't use a common. What AC do you get between gray and gray-green?

#6 10 months ago
Quoted from gutz:

AC doesn't use a common. What AC do you get between gray and gray-green?

Oops /facepalm. Okay, 20.8VAC between them

#7 10 months ago

So I know on F-14 when you press SW1 on the CPU board, it plays the "jet" sound, which supposedly shows that the CVSD and DAC are both functioning per the F-14 manual. I tested it on my F-14 and it made the proper sound.

The Pinbot manual simply says to press the SW1 and listen for a sound that shows the sound circuitry is functioning properly. I'm not certain if it serves the same purpose (verifying the CVSD and DAC) or not. Nothing happens when I press the SW1 in my Pinbot. Thoughts?

#8 10 months ago

You are misinterpreting the test on F-14. Each sound made from that test either uses the CVSD OR the DAC, not both simultaneously. The CVSD plays speech and sound samples. The DAC plays electronic sound effects.

No Speech (CVSD) but working sound effects (DAC) from the MPU section means only 3 possible bad parts.

CVSD at U3
1458 Op amp at U4
10 uf cap at C15

I supposed the 1 uf cap at C9 could go bad too but I have never seen it.
I have had to replace at least 10+ CVSD's over 15+ years so they do go bad.

If you aren't getting the DAC or the CVSD to work then it can be way more likely issues.
3 wire cable missing between sound board and cpu board
Bad 1458 Op amp at U5
Bad RAM on CPU sound section U23
Bad CPU at CPU sound section U24
Bad ROM's at U21, U22

Pinbot is a slightly annoying game to diagnose sound issues from because there were multiple variations on where the speech comes from depending on the build.

I have seen most pinbots with speech generated only on the Cpu board. I have seen 2 with speech generated on both boards and I have seen one that was completely missing the CVSD with several resistors in a socket at that spot and all speech generated on the background board. Some games have only U4 on the background sound board and some have U4 and U19. Sounds like yours should be a conventional Pinbot since it only has U4

Most games from system 11-11B had the speech generated only on the MPU sound section. Elvira definitely has the speech generated on both boards (Drac on one and Elvira on the other), and all 11C games only have the speech generated on the background sound board.

#9 10 months ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

You are misinterpreting the test on F-14. Each sound made from that test either uses the CVSD OR the DAC, not both simultaneously. The CVSD plays speech and sound samples. The DAC plays electronic sound effects.

Ah, okay. The F-14 Manual was a little vague. It simplly reads: "Press the Sound Diagnostic Switch (SW 1) on the left edge of the CPU Board. Listen for the descending shriek of a diving F-14 Tomcat, showing that both the CVSD Modulator, which provides the voices for F-14 Tomcat, and the DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter) sound circuits are functioning properly."

Pinbot was even more vague about the SW1 results, so I was curious.

Thank you for the suggestions on what I need to look at to try and get the Speech on Pinbot fixed! Any suggested tests, or should I just go on through the list and replace the (3) items mentioned one at a time to see if that corrects the issue?

#10 10 months ago

Best advice would be to remove the ribbon cable from the sound board to the cpu board. Then go into the sound test though the diagnostic menu and see if the game makes any sounds. If it makes some sound effects but no speech then it's the 3 likely components on the mpu board. If if makes no sound at all then it's the slightly harder repair on the MPU board. Double check your work by reattaching the ribbon cable and rerunning the tests. If this is a standard build pinbot the music will be all that is generated on the background sound board through the ribbon cable (and that can be tested in the music test) and all game play sound effects and speech will be generated on the MPU board.

order of likelihood for the no speech but sound effect result
1458 Op amp at U4
CVSD at U3
10 uf cap at C15
but the cvsd is the most $ and hardest to find part so swap that last.

order of likelihood for the no speech and no sound effect result

Bad 1458 Op amp at U5
Bad RAM on CPU sound section U23
Bad ROM's at U21, U22
Bad CPU at CPU sound section U24
3 wire cable missing between sound board and cpu board

#11 10 months ago

I have plenty of old posts on system 11 sound generation but here is the skinny

Depending on which version MPU and which version sound board there are up to 6 different sources of sound.

On the MPU board
Speech from 55536 CVSD
Sounds from 1408 DAC
(these are both removed on system 11C but are used on 100% of the time on system 11, 11A and 11B games except for that one weird pinbot I found)

On the background sound board

Sounds from 1408 DAC (pretty sure it's always populated) not sure if it's always used. (this is the only sound line on High speed and Grand Lizard background sound boards)
2 sound lines from the Yamaha Synthesizer chips these start from Road Kings all the way through 11C)
Speech from 55536 CVSD (not populated on most games, but always there on system 11C, pinbot is the first sound board that has a location for it)

The fully populated system 11 sound board is essentially the same as the first gen WPC pre-DCS sound board in terms of how the sounds are make (same CVSD, DAC and yamaha chips) it just used a different amp and different way to talk to the MPU board.

#12 10 months ago

Awesome responses, thank you! I will do these tests tomorrow and report back. I appreciate the help and advice, as always.

10 months later
#13 8 days ago

Resurrecting my own thread, because strangely enough I actually picked up another Pinbot, and it has the same issue as my last one. So my original machine described above ended up being added to an unexpected trade situation, and left my possession before I ever got the speech working. I missed the game, and finally found another almost a year later. Got it home, fired it up, and here I am with no Speech yet again!

* Music works fine (both in game and in Music Test).
* Sound Test produces nothing. When I cycle through 00 to 07 during the Sound Test, just silence Are these tests all for Speech effects?
* In-Game Sound effects (targets/switches/etc) all work fine

I disconnected the ribbon cable between MPU/Sound board and the music stopped working as noted by kbliznick above.

Based on his feedback, it sounds like my plan of attack will be:

Replace 1458 Op amp at U4 (and U5?)
Replace CVSD at U3
Replace 10 uf cap at C15

I don't think the sound ROMs were ever replaced on this machine (my last one had newer ones). Should I bother with that first, or just jump straight to the op amps and CVSD?

Thanks

#14 8 days ago

I never got my Pinbots fully working when I had my projects but had the exact opposite problem with Speech but no background music. From what I could figure out, the speech was actually on the CPU board on it's own chip while the music came off of the music board. I can think of 2 likely problems. 1, the speech chip itself, 2, the bridge between the CPU board and the sound board. Were I you, I would reseat the speech chip on the CPU board, as well as the ribbon cables. If that didn't work, I'd order a new speech chip (~$30) and try that.

Good luck and it's a great game!

#15 8 days ago

Agree with above, first off I would reseat your existing ROMs just to make sure it isn’t something simple like that. If that fails I would replace the speech ROMs for $30. Another option would be to swap in speech ROMs from another system 11 game and see if you get anything. That would narrow it down some. My PinBot has no music when I got it, new ROMs solved that issue.

#16 8 days ago

I went with updated/new sound ROMs the last time I had this issue with my previous Pinbot, and it didn't seem to help. I could try that again, but it seems like the most common fix has been the stuff cited above with the 55536 and Op Amp replacements. I'll try re-seating the ROMs again though, just in case.

#17 7 days ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

* Sound Test produces nothing. When I cycle through 00 to 07 during the Sound Test, just silence
Are these tests all for Speech effects?
* In-Game Sound effects (targets/switches/etc) all work fine

Strange. 00-07 are supposed to test the speech AND the sound effects. Both are generated on the MPU board. the speech from the 55536 and associated components and the electronic sound effects from the DAC (1808?? I forget the part number the moment). Can anyone else confirm that 00-07 is more than just speech samples or sampled sounds versus electronic sound effects?

If the MPU driven sound effects are working then the CPU, RAM, ROM's etc should be OK and you are just looking at the 3 speech only components, (1458 op-amp, 10 uf cap, 55536 chip)

#18 7 days ago

My apologies, I didn't catch that you had sound effects but just no speech. From what I recall the music is on a set of ROMs and speech and sound is on another set so if you have sound effects but no speech then I think it would not be the ROMs.

#19 7 days ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Strange. 00-07 are supposed to test the speech AND the sound effects. Both are generated on the MPU board. the speech from the 55536 and associated components and the electronic sound effects from the DAC (1808?? I forget the part number the moment). Can anyone else confirm that 00-07 is more than just speech samples or sampled sounds versus electronic sound effects?
If the MPU driven sound effects are working then the CPU, RAM, ROM's etc should be OK and you are just looking at the 3 speech only components, (1458 op-amp, 10 uf cap, 55536 chip)

I would be curious which sound effects aside from speech are in that selection. I could test those in-game if I know which they are I guess. I can tell you that the music works, and when I hit the stand up targets, switches, etc., I hear all the expected sound effects. If someone can reply and describe what sounds (or maybe post a short video) are played during the Sound test 00-07, that would be great.

#20 7 days ago

Here's a video I came across from a guy that had a similar problem, and how he fixed it.

Fast forward to the 20 minute mark.

Hope this helps.

-Paul

#21 7 days ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I would be curious which sound effects aside from speech are in that selection. I could test those in-game if I know which they are I guess. I can tell you that the music works, and when I hit the stand up targets, switches, etc., I hear all the expected sound effects. If someone can reply and describe what sounds (or maybe post a short video) are played during the Sound test 00-07, that would be great.

I will do the sound test on mine tonight and let you know.

#22 7 days ago

Thanks for the link, some info there, I appreciate it. I also found the below link, which plays Sounds 00-07. Now I'll have to check if I actually have those sounds in-game or not. Note: None of them are "speech"... not sure if there's a way to "test" the speech?

#23 7 days ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Thanks for the link, some info there, I appreciate it. I also found the below link, which plays Sounds 00-07. Now I'll have to check if I actually have those sounds in-game or not. Note: None of them are "speech"... not sure if there's a way to "test" the speech?

06 is definitely speech. He says "tilt" 07 might be a sampled sound and thus speech . 00-05 sound like sound effects.

#24 7 days ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

06 is definitely speech. He says "tilt" 07 might be a sampled sound and thus speech . 00-05 sound like sound effects.

Ah yes, I hear the "tilt" in the video. It would seem I have none of those working, at least in test. I don't recall hearing them in-game either, but I'll see if I can find them by triggering things.

#25 6 days ago

I reseated all the sound ROMs, no change. I initiated a game and tried to find the 00-07 sounds. Nothing I did seemed to output those.

I also noted that the switches behind a few of the rubbers award the "10" points expected, but no sound is made. Not sure if that's normal or not.

kbliznick , think I should just assume the 1458 op amps and 55536 and start there?

#26 6 days ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I reseated all the sound ROMs, no change. I initiated a game and tried to find the 00-07 sounds. Nothing I did seemed to output those.
I also noted that the switches behind a few of the rubbers award the "10" points expected, but no sound is made. Not sure if that's normal or not.
kbliznick , think I should just assume the 1458 op amps and 55536 and start there?

yep, the 55536 produces sampled sounds; so speech, animal sounds, explosions, etc.. op amp and 10 uf cap first, then the 55536 if it still doesn't work.

#27 6 days ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

yep, the 55536 produces sampled sounds; so speech, animal sounds, explosions, etc.. op amp and 10 uf cap first, then the 55536 if it still doesn't work.

Okay, ordering that stuff now. Shipping is always killer, so I'll probably just grab the 55536 just in case. I'm sure it will come in handy someday, even if it's just to help someone on here or locally out that needs one.

#28 4 days ago

Parts arriving today, so I'll be working on everything tonight. Some interesting new developments though kbliznick :

* During gameplay, music will be playing fine, but will sometimes cut out and all sound will stop playing. Other times, the sound will "freeze" on a certain note and just hold that note non-stop for the rest of the ball, until it drains.

* I noticed this happens more frequently when the music changes (for example from normal music to multiball music). Sometimes the music will transition just fine, other times it will simply stop and no sound is heard for a while (or one long note). Draining a ball and restarting "normal" music and sound usually fixes it. Some games everything stays fine (aside from the missing speech).

* It's not a volume control issue, I checked that. Definitely some sort of cut out of music and/or sound sometimes. I'm hoping it's all related to the op amps and 55536.

Anyone else have this issue? I'm starting to think I'll be needing those sound ROMs afterall. Should I just grab those from eBay, or is there a preferred place to pickup good quality Sound Roms?

#29 3 days ago

Sadly, no luck.

Replaced 55536
Replaced 1458 op amp U4
Replaced C15
Replaced Ribbon cable
Reseated all Sound Roms

Also replaced several old capacitors on the Power Supply, since I was soldering anyway.

No speech still, unfortunately.

** Is the next logical choice to purchase/install new sound ROMs?

#30 2 days ago

can you post pics of your sound board and the sound/speech section on your MPU. Pinbot was delivered in at least 3 variations for the sound/speech/music set-up

#31 1 day ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

can you post pics of your sound board and the sound/speech section on your MPU. Pinbot was delivered in at least 3 variations for the sound/speech/music set-up

Yes, see attached. Thanks!
NOTE: This was before I swapped out the U4 and U3 chips, and C15 capacitor on the MPU.

Pinbot_Sound-Speech_MPU - Copy (resized).jpgPinbot_Sound_Board - Copy (resized).jpg

#32 1 day ago

I think based on your older post I have a "standard" config for sound?

ROMs ordered, should be here in a couple of days. I have a sinking feeling that won't fix it, but fingers crossed! Not sure where I'd go next if that's not the issue.

#33 1 day ago

I had a Pinbot that was doing this same thing, sounds only, no speech. It was a few years ago, so my memory is not crystal clear, but as I recall, the speech all comes from the MPU board, and the sounds come from the sound board. There is a separate CPU chip for the sound on the CPU board, as well as all the other associated chips (RAM, ROM, etc).
On mine, I found a botched solder job relating to the data bus, or something like that. I took a schematic and ohmed out all the data and address lines. It's really pretty simple: put one lead on "data 0" on the CPU, then just slide the other lead up and down the other associated chips. If it beeps at all (assuming your meter beeps), move on to next chip or next data/address line. If no beep, slow down, do it again and start investigating. That's how I found the bad solder connection.
You can also try swapping the sound CPU with the game CPU and see if that reveals anything (like maybe a bad CPU chip).

It was a great day when I heard Pinbot say "I see you" after I got it fixed. I actually said "I see you too, Pinbot" and smiled the rest of the night. You can get it. Don't give up. You may need to step away for a bit for clarity, though...

Good luck,
Jeff

#34 1 day ago

Thanks Jeff - hopefully I'll get to say the same thing to this Pinbot not too long from now. If he's not talking after replacing the Sound ROMs, I'll be at a loss for next steps. Good to have another idea to consider!

#35 1 day ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I think based on your older post I have a "standard" config for sound?
ROMs ordered, should be here in a couple of days. I have a sinking feeling that won't fix it, but fingers crossed! Not sure where I'd go next if that's not the issue.

yeah, that's the most common standard configuration (speech on MPU, no speech on the background board, CVSD at U18 is not populated).

One other easy test is to jumper the sound effects/speech from the MPU to the MPU amp without the background sound board connected.

remove J116 from the MPU then pull the connector of the sound board that goes to the volume knob and connect it onto J116. this will make the audio signals from the MPU generated sounds bypass being mixed into the background board. With this done we can see which of the sound effects are coming from the DAC on the MPU board and which are coming from the DAC on the background sound board.

My thinking here is that if you aren't getting any of the sounds from test 00-07 then what sound effects that the game is making are in fact coming from the DAC on the background sound board. If NOTHING is being generated on the MPU sound section then you still have the other op amp, the RAM, the eproms and the CPU chip that might be bad (usually in that order)

Here is a pic of the weirdest set-up in a pin-bot. No CVSD on the MPU board and a speech chip on the background sound board. I've also seen it set-up with speech on BOTH of the boards (verified that it indeed generated from both spots)
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinbot-u19-speech-chip-whats-it-for#post-2296540

#36 1 day ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

yeah, that's the most common standard configuration (speech on MPU, no speech on the background board, CVSD at U18 is not populated).
One other easy test is to jumper the sound effects/speech from the MPU to the MPU amp without the background sound board connected.
remove J116 from the MPU then pull the connector of the sound board that goes to the volume knob and connect it onto J116. this will make the audio signals from the MPU generated sounds bypass being mixed into the background board. With this done we can see which of the sound effects are coming from the DAC on the MPU board and which are coming from the DAC on the background sound board.

I did as instructed and ran the Music and Sound tests. I could VERY faintly hear the music through the speakers, but it was definitely playing. Literally had to have my ear almost next to the speaker, but I did hear it and could cycle through the music selections. The Sound test 00-07 still nothing.

Should I start a game and listen for in-game sounds too, or was the test mentioned sufficient?

#37 1 day ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I did as instructed and ran the Music and Sound tests. I could VERY faintly hear the music through the speakers, but it was definitely playing. Literally had to have my ear almost next to the speaker, but I did hear it and could cycle through the music selections. The Sound test 00-07 still nothing.
Should I start a game and listen for in-game sounds too, or was the test mentioned sufficient?

Go ahead and do that too. Likely those sound effects will be as faint as the music. If so then the entire sound section on your MPU board is NOT working, not just the speech. So it's likely one of the following on the MPU board sound section (in order of likelihood from my experience);

the other 1458 op amp, the RAM, the eproms and the CPU chip that might be bad

#38 20 hours ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Go ahead and do that too. Likely those sound effects will be as faint as the music. If so then the entire sound section on your MPU board is NOT working, not just the speech. So it's likely one of the following on the MPU board sound section (in order of likelihood from my experience);
the other 1458 op amp, the RAM, the eproms and the CPU chip that might be bad

I assumed that hearing sound at all meant it was working. But you're saying that because it's really faint, that's an indication that there's a problem? Why would I hear anything at all if there was an issue? Interesting... I'm curious how it works. Thanks!

#39 4 hours ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I assumed that hearing sound at all meant it was working. But you're saying that because it's really faint, that's an indication that there's a problem? Why would I hear anything at all if there was an issue? Interesting... I'm curious how it works. Thanks!

You have TWO DAC'S in the game that generate electronic sound effects.

Read up on some of my old threads on system 11 sound to get the full story. Short story is this.

System 11 generates up to 6 different sound lines. Very few games will have all 6 (EATPM is one). These 6 outputs are;

2 different speech sound outputs from 55536 CVSD's. 1 on MPU 1 on background sound board
2 different sound effect outputs from 1408 DAC's. 1 on MPU 1 on background sound board
2 syntheziser sound outputs from 2 yamaha chips. Both on background sound board.

Your Pinbot has 5 outputs. The only one missing from the above list is the background board speech.

When you disconnected the background soundboard generated audio you can still hear it faintly because the audio amp is picking it up through the ground plane. What you are hearing faintly are the 3 (out of 4 possible) sound lines from background sound board.

#40 3 hours ago

Great short explanation, and makes sense, thanks.

So I did the same test with gameplay, and as you thought the in-game sounds are all faintly there as well, like the music.

I have the new Sound ROMs in hand, but from what you're saying, it sounds like they won't help at all, sadly. I bought (3) extra 1458 op amps, so I can replace U5. I don't have the RAM, eproms or CPU though, so I'll have to source those. I hate to pull the board in and out a bunch of times, but perhaps it's worth it just to do U5 and then test again, before ordering anything else?

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