My Pinbot keep blowing fuse F2 (Controlled Solenoids) after playing a few games. I could not put by finger on a specific coil or action to trigger it.

Feels like it can happen at any time. Last time it was at the end of a game (last coil was knocker) other time was in the middle of a game and the first time it was after leaving the game idle for 30 minutes after playing fine for about 30 minutes.

Not sure if it's related but I have no Right Visor GI and during game the lower ramp solenoid seems to have problem as well.

I checked for any hot coil after my last blow fuse and all coils were cold except the right flipper which was mildly hot compare to my left one (slightly warmed). I read someone added capacitors to the flippers EOS (which I don't have) and it fixed his but I have my doubt about this being my problem.

Any expert to help me here?

Any expert on system 11 to help out? Thanks!

Hein?

Ok, cool.

Yeah I just find out how to stop the solenoid test to stop on a specific coil. I'll try that. Since the fuse is blowing over time. Is that mean that the circuit is getting slightly more amps that it should and over a period of time the fuse gets to fail. Would a bad diode do that instead of a plain simple circuit short?

Keep suggestions coming. Very appreciated!

Ok thanks!

I don't suspect the coil itself but because it's the "Controlled" solenoid fuse that is blowing, I suspect it's coming from a "coil mechanism".

Would that blow the"special" solenoid fuse since it's the circuit that feeds those coils?

The transistors should not get super hot you mean? Which transistor should I check in that instance?

Thanks!

The manual says (at least the sticker in the backbox) that there are 2 fuses for the solenoids (F2, switched and controlled solenoids, 4 amp SB) and (F4, special solenoids, 2.5 amp SB)

Me it's the F2 4amp SB that gives out.

Same here, I'm at work. I'll check it out tonight when i get home.

Ok, I let the solenoid test run for each coil 5 to 10 times each. The all worked (except Right Visor GI, does nothing) and the fuse did not blow.

I check my other fuses and found F1 (high voltage) which should be 0.25a SB @250v is instead a 20a SB @32v. I'm going to replace this one but what could it cause as a side effect?

With that being said, what should be the next step?

Ok, I'll try that tonight. I checked the EOS and they seemed fine (gap and connection but I'll double check)

Next time it blows a fuse, what should I check right away? (heat or lack of heat on somewhere?)

Which fuse would it blow?

And how long can I let the test run on a single coil before it gets excessive?

That is good insight!

Ok, my problem persist. Checked for loose wire or possible short on switches, checked eos gap, checked for fuses value, ran most coil in test for about 20-25 rep no problem. This time it blew very early in the first game.

What should I look for next? I'm very disappointed. I can't put my finger on what happen exactly when it happens...

What wire would that be?

Also, I found a pop bumper lamp wire and a staple touching the pop bumper bracket, would that be bad? I fixed that but got to wait tomorrow when the kid is not sleeping to test out.

Thanks Grumpy, more ammunition! Will check it out tomorrow and report back. Very appreciated!

Wait what, in the schematics page 76 it says F2 2.5 amp and on page 41 (and the backbox sticker) is says 4 amp. F4 says 10 amp page 76 and 2.5 amp page 41.

What to trust? Don't think that's my problem but just noticed it.

I my right visor GI does not work, could it be coming from there?

What is the best way to find a short?

"The socket" you mean the right visor GI flasher lamp socket?

Sorry I'm a noob yet at electrical, I'm not super familiar using a DMM yet as well. Please bare with me and thanks again

Thanks I'll check that as well.

New development. I investigated that visor flasher GI. I found out that the circuit was indeed working, 3 of my led lamps (installed by the previous owner) were dead and the tab on one lamp socket was pried so the solder was touching the other part of the lamp socket which is supposed to be isolated by the rubber/paper bushing...

So, I pried them back so they are free and put things back in place cleanly. I need new lamps.

I suspect the previous owner to have messed with the lamp sockets when installing the led... He was terrible at fixes and mods, you should have seen his solder jobs...

Anyway, played 2 games and was fine but I got to play more. I'll report back.

While I was at it, I looked at my fuse while testing the coils again and I could clearly see it "pulse" pretty hard for certain coil. Is that normal or a sign that the fuse will eventually fail under these condition?

Now up to 4 games without blown fuse...

Backbox says 4a and that is what I'm using. It's the single wire with the solder dot in the middle design type of fuse. Not the coil type.

The fuse does not glow but I can see the wire bend/arc when tests are performed on the circuit.

I tested the current at the flasher GI section and I was at 35.7 or 37.5, can't remember. I believe this should be 34v DC circuit.

it's one like these:

https://www.futurlec.com/Pictures/Fuse_5x20.jpg

The fuse "pulsed" for every coil/solenoid test. Some test more that other.

I did not repin the connectors yet nor removed my power supply board from the backbox to check for cold or cracked joints. Should I?

One thing I found is that the wire strand that hold the 34v from the power supply board to the cabinet has a junction (connector) in the cabinet. This connector was angled and halfway IN. I set it back in properly. Possible cause for blowing a fuse?

I would still see my fuse "pulse" after above so I'm wondering is it changed anything.

Is there a way for me to test if there is indeed "too much" current going through the said fuse?

So I remove the fuse to do check amperage? What should be the appropriate reading considering it's a 4amp fuse that sits there?

How do a determine polarity of the fuse holder? Would connecting the DMM inverse would only give a negative value?

Red test lead on positive?

I do not have alligator test lead. Can I remove the fuse, power the game and apply the test lead one after the other on the fuse holder?

It is F2 that blows for me.

Sorry, what do you mean by: "Just NEVER connect ACROSS a voltage source" ?

How do I do that ? Sorry again. I'm learning here.

Pinbot manual from IPDB says F4 2.5 amp.

Capture.jpg

I checked the amperage at the f2 fuse and did not get above around 1.75 amp. I went into test mode and tested each solenoid a few time each. Most of them were around 0.8 to 1 amp, some lower, some higher especially the back box flashers.

In theory that sounds good but if multiple solenoid were firing at the same time, that could be problem?

Also when I checked the amperage and put my lead on the fuse holders, the second lead on the second holder would spark on the initial contact, that is ok?

Oh really! That is good to know. So I need regular incandescent bulbs for those 4 flashers?

The red plastic that covers the eject holes are melted down. Was this done over time or at some point the flasher stayed on too long?

Now I think about it, while playing and having one ball locked, the other side GI flasher would not blink all the time but would stay on for some time. Is that the regular behaviour or those flasher should always blink all the time?

Gotcha. It all makes sense now. I'm going to get #1251 to replace my burnt led and I should be good to go.

I'm up to 7-8 games now on the same fuse, fingers crossed.

Also, I just read that the visor GI was quite solicited during attract mode thus blowing the fuse even when leaving the game idle if that was my problem (short at socket).

Oh you are totally right. It's is not for everyone to do that and as a noob I asked a lot of questions and was still scared as shit to ruin something while doing it.

Hopefully I'm done with the DMM and can just enjoy my game

Update: I still have my problem.

After around 10 games without issues, I reconnected my led strips using the service outlet and also reconnect my topper flashers. I did disconnect my topper during my troubleshooting to isolate the problem and forgot it was off. During my first game with everything back together my fuse blew up.

I asked on another post if my led strip connected to my service outlet might cause issue and general consensus was it was OK and would unlikely blow up my solenoid fuse.

Now I'm suspecting my topper flashers. I checked them and find one of the bulb base broken off. More interestingly, all the bulbs were #67 instead of the #89 recommended. They seems pretty similar. Could it be a problem?

Could it be that all I have no short at all but when multiple coils fires at the same time I suddenly exceeds the 4 amps the fuse it supposed to hold?

Even then, because it's a slo-blow, it would theoretically need to be a constant amp overdrive? Or a significant current peak?

I tested a few coils at the fuse @ 1 to 1.5 amp. Add those to a few flashers and it's recipe for disaster right?

How many coils are allowed to fire on the same circuit at the same time?

I did not yet so I left if off. The topper is connected with a molex inside the back box head.

But looking at charts, it seems that #67 and #89 are equivalent. I doubt it's my issue unless the broken bulb was shorting something.

Lamp # - Volts - Amps - MCSD - Life - Base
89* - 13.0 - .58 - 6.00 - 750 - S.C. Bayonet (BA15s)
67* - 13.5 - .59 - 4.0 - 5,000 - S.C. Bayonet (BA15s) {1}

But again, I now feel it's an accumulation problem (multiple coils/flashers) firing at the same time than an actual short on something specific. Could it be?

Tonight, I'm going to try to over rate the circuit and put a 5 amp slo-blow using the different design one (coil) see what it does.

No blown fuse yet.

Yes, they require #1251 28 volts lamp.

Took off my power supply board, all joints were good. However, I noticed the f2 fuse holders were once replaced. One of the capacitor was also once replaced.

What would that tell you about the fuse holders?

Also, should it take my cpu board off as well to check for cracked joints on connectors or power supply power was what I needed?

Yeah the game stock except the previous owner put 12v led strip on the shooter lane and left ramp. They must be connected with an AC adapter to the service outlet when the game is played. He also put LED on the 35 volts visor GI flasher which is a no go, those are dead now and will replaced by #1251.

I only owned the game for a little while. It seemed to be OK when I got it but never played more than a few games at the time. A few weeks later I blew a fuse and now it's happening always a after few games. May be the seller decided to sell because he started having problem with it...

Yesterday, I tested the amperage at the fuse again. I noticed sometimes my ramp would not go down immediately even if firing flawlessly during test mode. ("lower ramp" coil)

It appears it got amperage spike up to 3 amps when this little tiny coil was firing. It this a normal reading? The reading was varying a lot and my DMM is not very good at quick reading. But I still saw 3 amps on the meter a few times.

On all the time GI.

That much, 7 amps? that's a lot for a 4amp fuse. I know they are slo blow but still. I think I measured the resistance of that coil at around 4.2 ohms, that would mean even more amps.

Should a 4 SB fuse be able to handle an 8 amp spike?

Also, I think I found one of my sun flasher socket wires touching each other. I could see "marks" on the solder where it touched. I fixed that as well and check every other flasher lamp socket wiring on the game.

Have not had the chance to test the game further (play a few games) after that (kid sleeping), we'll report back.

OK. For example, those flasher lamp socket wires touching each other, would that normally cause the fuse to blow right away on single flash? Let's say in test mode. One test= one blown fuse?

This is both very good and very bad advice thanks guys.

Coin lockout coil? First time I hear about this.

I'll definitely check it out.

Don't seem to have coin lockout coils on my Pinbot.

Currently I have no lamps in the Visor GI sockets. All 6 are empty. The previous owner put in LEDs which died. I'm waiting on getting new #1251.

Would leaving the socket empty have an impact somewhere?

So you think after the trouble I'm having now a transistor might have gone bad? And that I most likely have a board issue that needs fixing?

I will thanks.

I tried my game yesterday again, with my topper plugged in and the fuse blew on second game (same 4amp fuse batch that's been failing on me). did not last long... I put on a 5 amp using the coil type fuse design but I played only 1 game with it. I feel those are better. I will report back.

Also, I read that you can put a light bulb in place of the fuse hooked the the fuse holders to see when lots of current goes through. What would be the correct bulb wattage to test this circuit? Any example of setup/lamp style?

The reason I'm asking about the light bulb is that it would be way easier for me to see when and what draw that much current and when it's about to fail. Now I just play the game trying to be attentive to what happen when it fails but I can't put my finger on it.

With the light starting to glow bright I could see what happen when it does.

Make sense?

How to you remove the little board with the 4 ceramics resistor holding by the plastic clips? Do you means those boards?

The white plastic things are screws? Never messed with those before.

I had my pinball party tonight.

I installed a 5amp fuse (instead of 4) and the topper disconnected. Played probably 100 games without issues.

I think I narrowed it down to the topper flashers. Will take a closer look at the board especially the one underneath the PF since the ones inside the back box looked fine.

Will report back.

My visor GI flashers are still empty. Eyes back box are #1251.

Major update, I think I found my problem.

Now fixing it, who knows what value is this resistor?

This one says 332ohms, 10w, 1%. But every other board has a 330omhs, 7w, 10% for this location.

As a side note, one of my other flasher board has this blue round resistor instead of the rectangular one. It looks like it's been replaced before. I guess it is?

image.jpg

Can I just resolder the tip of the resistor to the hanging piece of wire or should I change the resistor altogether. Something tells me I already know your answers.

I'll perform the repair later today. Do you think that was definitely my problem?

Man! Really??

Yeah, plugged back my topper and still blew a fuse on third game... I'm starting to get discouraged.

To both of you good tips, I'll spend more time around the flashers and boards.

OK, I had to chance to test all my resistors on all 6 flasher boards. (4 under playfield, 2 in back box).

My first question is: Pretty much all 330 omhs resistor tested at around 32.5 ohms. Is this because they are in a circuit? Is this why is says 10% on the resistor?

One 330 ohms I read 330 but this board was only connected with wires on 1 side (opposite side of the resistor)

One 5 omhs resistor I got nothing, either no resistance or no continuity, can't remember, I'm still learning to read my DMM...

The left board in the back box, both the 330 ohms resistors read 164 ohms.

What do you guys make of it?

I had a little time to spend on my Pinbot. I started looking at my flasher bulb socket, checking continuity. I'm wondering, if there is no bulb in a socket, there should not be any continuity between the socket 2 tabs right? What and how should I verify if there is a short on a bulb socket?

Also, is it ok if the socket wire solder touches not only the tab but the socket and the socket holder as well? See picture below
image.jpg

Ok thanks I'll keep looking.

I Ran new tests yesterday. First, with the back of panel open and checking my fuse, I dropped ball after ball inside the vortex to trigger the topper flashers+ PF flashers+ solar energy flashers (jets). I burned the fuse after about 4-5 times doing that. I could clearly see it go in flames.

Now I was going somewhere.

I jumpered my DMM instead of the fuse and ran the same procedure to test the current that was going through the circuit.

I was getting a steady 5.5 amp for the time the topper was ON, probably around 5 sec.

That's it. I'm pretty sure that's the surge I'm was after and the 4 amp fuses I was using could not stand it.

I put in a 5 amp fuse using the coil design type of fuse and so far so good.

I should try getting a 4 amp of the same type to see the result.

For the sake of comparing, would someone with a Pinbot would want to try the same operation, drop ball in vortex and let it bounces in the pops and measure amperage at F2?

That would be very informative.

Mine is one pair on topper, probably one pair on PF and the 4 solar energy flashers while the ball is in the pops during the topper is still going from hitting 100 000.

Do the topper flashers light the same when hitting 100 000 pts?

If I was running LED instead of regular #89 for the topper, would that help for the current running through the circuit?

What type of led you guys would use for the topper which you require omni direction light?

Can you recommend any? Both for directional (solar+sun) and omni (topper and playfield)

Great thanks!

Would you use red flashers for the topper and orange flashers for the solar/sun/PF flashers or simply warm white and leave the insert/caps/topper plastic do the rest? What gives better result?

That make sense, however I'm in Canada and shipping and exchange rate makes it difficult to place multiple orders, ust for trying.

I'll start a new post to get people's advice on this topic.

Hopefully that's the end of it. I'll keep posting if something changes.

Thanks a whole bunch you guys, you are great and I really appreciate.