(Topic ID: 141922)

Pinbot keeps blowing fuse after a few games, why?


By Plumonium

4 years ago



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  • 161 posts
  • 16 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by GRUMPY
  • Topic is favorited by 10 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

My Pinbot keep blowing fuse F2 (Controlled Solenoids) after playing a few games. I could not put by finger on a specific coil or action to trigger it.

Feels like it can happen at any time. Last time it was at the end of a game (last coil was knocker) other time was in the middle of a game and the first time it was after leaving the game idle for 30 minutes after playing fine for about 30 minutes.

Not sure if it's related but I have no Right Visor GI and during game the lower ramp solenoid seems to have problem as well.

I checked for any hot coil after my last blow fuse and all coils were cold except the right flipper which was mildly hot compare to my left one (slightly warmed). I read someone added capacitors to the flippers EOS (which I don't have) and it fixed his but I have my doubt about this being my problem.

Any expert to help me here?

#2 4 years ago

Any expert on system 11 to help out? Thanks!

#3 4 years ago

Sub'd.

#5 4 years ago

Tuff to find intermittent problems like this.

Go in to Solenoid Test and let it run. If it allows you to pause and repeat the same solenoid, do that. Let each one fire 8-10 times before stepping to the next one.

You have the correct fuse in that location, right?

#6 4 years ago

I work with a guy with a very similar problem on his millionaire. I'm following along for some ideas before I head over there and check it out.

#7 4 years ago

Ok, cool.

Yeah I just find out how to stop the solenoid test to stop on a specific coil. I'll try that. Since the fuse is blowing over time. Is that mean that the circuit is getting slightly more amps that it should and over a period of time the fuse gets to fail. Would a bad diode do that instead of a plain simple circuit short?

Keep suggestions coming. Very appreciated!

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Would a bad diode do that instead of a plain simple circuit short?

Remember that the coils have power all the time. A bad, or reversed diode would usually blow the fuse immediately, and not work for a while first. Usually, anyways.

Many times a coil problem really isn't the coil - what you think is a coil problem is often something else, a transistor shorted, or even a switch sticking on. Coils are just often not the cause themselves.

I'd start with a thorough check of switch diagnostics, also make certain that a pop bumper, sling or other special solenoid isn't getting locked on. Also, check the solenoid transistors thoroughly before assuming a coil problem. Just loop through the coil tests repeatedly to get everything up to temp. You might find that the "smoking gun" is a transistor getting smoking hot after it is in operation for a little while.

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Remember that the coils have power all the time. A bad, or reversed diode would usually blow the fuse immediately, and not work for a while first. Usually, anyways.

Ok thanks!

Quoted from wayout440:

Many times a coil problem really isn't the coil - what you think is a coil problem is often something else, a transistor shorted, or even a switch sticking on. Coils are just often not the cause themselves.

I don't suspect the coil itself but because it's the "Controlled" solenoid fuse that is blowing, I suspect it's coming from a "coil mechanism".

Quoted from wayout440:

I'd start with a thorough check of switch diagnostics, also make certain that a pop bumper, sling or other special solenoid isn't getting locked on.

Would that blow the"special" solenoid fuse since it's the circuit that feeds those coils?

Quoted from wayout440:

Also, check the solenoid transistors thoroughly before assuming a coil problem. Just loop through the coil tests repeatedly to get everything up to temp. You might find that the "smoking gun" is a transistor getting smoking hot after it is in operation for a little while.

The transistors should not get super hot you mean? Which transistor should I check in that instance?

Thanks!

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Ok thanks!

I don't suspect the coil itself but because it's the "Controlled" solenoid fuse that is blowing, I suspect it's coming from a "coil mechanism".

? Not sure what you mean by this

Quoted from Plumonium:

Would that blow the"special" solenoid fuse since it's the circuit that feeds those coils?

There's no fuse explicitly for the special solenoid coils, all coils are all fed supply voltage from the same solenoid fuse on Pinbot, F2 +34VDC solenoid fuse.
Don't forget to make certain that the F2 fuse is a 2.5 SB (Slo Blow) fuse. A standard blow fuse will not work. Has to be 2.5 S.B.only

Quoted from Plumonium:

The transistors should not get super hot you mean? Which transistor should I check in that instance?
Thanks!

All the output solenoid transistors, they are listed on the solenoid table, second last column pg.27 in the manual

#11 4 years ago

The manual says (at least the sticker in the backbox) that there are 2 fuses for the solenoids (F2, switched and controlled solenoids, 4 amp SB) and (F4, special solenoids, 2.5 amp SB)

Me it's the F2 4amp SB that gives out.

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

The manual says (at least the sticker in the backbox) that there are 2 fuses for the solenoids (F2, switched and controlled solenoids, 4 amp SB) and (F4, special solenoids, 2.5 amp SB)
Me it's the F2 4amp SB that gives out.

Sorry, I am not at my game, just looking at an online copy of the manual and didn't see that. Probably doesn't have the notation that is on the sticker in the backbox.

Then in your case if it is just the fuse for F2 (switched and controlled) you would focus on the output transistors for those coils and ignore the special solenoids, since the fuse protecting them is staying intact.

#13 4 years ago

Same here, I'm at work. I'll check it out tonight when i get home.

#14 4 years ago

Ok, I let the solenoid test run for each coil 5 to 10 times each. The all worked (except Right Visor GI, does nothing) and the fuse did not blow.

I check my other fuses and found F1 (high voltage) which should be 0.25a SB @250v is instead a 20a SB @32v. I'm going to replace this one but what could it cause as a side effect?

With that being said, what should be the next step?

#15 4 years ago

I assume you've checked the EOS gap on your flippers? I think the F2 controls flippers. Also do a diode check on the flipper coils. Lastly, do a flipper-hold where you hold in the button for a period of time and confirm the fuse does not blow.

Can't hurt also to check kickouts / ramp / visor mechs. Do they move freely if you manually actuate them? If they are binding you could end up drawing more current I think?

#16 4 years ago

Ok, I'll try that tonight. I checked the EOS and they seemed fine (gap and connection but I'll double check)

Next time it blows a fuse, what should I check right away? (heat or lack of heat on somewhere?)

#17 4 years ago

It's not going to be flipper related. Flippers have their own fuse on the flipper power supply board and this board gets it's power directly from a secondary winding of the transformer.

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#18 4 years ago

Well I would put the game in solenoid test and try to get the game to blow on a specific coil actuating. I mean most of the time in my experience its the flippers but if the flipper tests above don't trigger anything then run the coil test.

When rebuilding my Taxi I found my flippers would work for a little bit then blow a fuse and it was a bad diode across a coil.

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

When rebuilding my Taxi I found my flippers would work for a little bit then blow a fuse and it was a bad diode across a coil.

Which fuse would it blow?

#20 4 years ago

And how long can I let the test run on a single coil before it gets excessive?

#21 4 years ago

Just brought a diner back to life. Would play fine for a bit, then F3 started blowing. Turned out the pop bumper lamp socket wasn't stapled down tight and if the game was shaking could touch the pop bumper bracket. Then F4 started blowing two games later. The lugs of one coil had been installed facing another coil. With a little shaking they could touch.

I would look at every coil in that row/column for such things.

#22 4 years ago

That is good insight!

#23 4 years ago

Ok, my problem persist. Checked for loose wire or possible short on switches, checked eos gap, checked for fuses value, ran most coil in test for about 20-25 rep no problem. This time it blew very early in the first game.

What should I look for next? I'm very disappointed. I can't put my finger on what happen exactly when it happens...

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

the first time it was after leaving the game idle for 30 minutes after playing fine for about 30 minutes.

The game sat idle and blew the fuse? Idle means attract mode or during a game and not playing? You may need to look for a short on the 34 volt power wire for the coils that are affected.

#25 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You may need to look for a short on the 34 volt power wire for the coils that are affected.

What wire would that be?

Also, I found a pop bumper lamp wire and a staple touching the pop bumper bracket, would that be bad? I fixed that but got to wait tomorrow when the kid is not sleeping to test out.

#26 4 years ago

Look at page 76 of the manual, fuse F-2 is sol B+ +34 volts DC. It starts at the power supply J-3 pin 6, 7 and 8 and is 3 solid red wires. Any one of these wires could be shorted. Each one of these wires will go to multiple coils in a daisy chain. If it was a dead short it would be easy to find, intermittent shorts are very hard to track down. My suggestion would be to lift the P/F and find the coils with the solid red wire (not the red with the white stripe) on them and look for any problems. 95% of all problems can be found by carefully looking if you know what to look for. Nice find on the pop GI wire, most likely not your problem unless the coil has a red wire and can sometimes touch the bracket too.

#27 4 years ago

Just went to look at my Pinbot, and the manual is wrong. Williams manuals do have mistakes now and then. My pin only has 2 red wires on J-3 pin 6 and 8. On the bright side there is 33% less wires for you to check.

#28 4 years ago

Thanks Grumpy, more ammunition! Will check it out tomorrow and report back. Very appreciated!

#29 4 years ago

Wait what, in the schematics page 76 it says F2 2.5 amp and on page 41 (and the backbox sticker) is says 4 amp. F4 says 10 amp page 76 and 2.5 amp page 41.

What to trust? Don't think that's my problem but just noticed it.

#30 4 years ago

I would believe the back box sticker, but I can check mine. This isn't your problem.

#31 4 years ago

My F2 fuse is a 4 amp slow blow.

#32 4 years ago

The F2 fuse also powers the flashers and some relay boards. They can also be where your short is.

#33 4 years ago

I my right visor GI does not work, could it be coming from there?

What is the best way to find a short?

#34 4 years ago

Yes, left/right visors are 28 volt flasher bulbs. Like I said a short all the time is easy to find, but a intermittent short can't be found with a meter. Remove the red wire from the socket and put a wire nut on it. See if that fixes it. More than likely a red wire is pinched under or in between a metal bracket causing the short.

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Remove the red wire from the socket

"The socket" you mean the right visor GI flasher lamp socket?

Sorry I'm a noob yet at electrical, I'm not super familiar using a DMM yet as well. Please bare with me and thanks again

#36 4 years ago

I had a similar problem on my taxi. My issue was the pop bumper skirt was getting stuck in the activated position. This was due to the switch spoon underneath not sitting directly under the skirt. Was a very minor adjustment, but fixed the fuse blow issue.

I would go into switch test and use your finger to actuate each pop bumper, but go all around the skirt, to see if you can make it get stuck. If your finger gets it stuck to where the spring doesn't bounce the skirt back to its natural position, then That is the culprit for the fuse blowing.

Edit: probably wiser to test with power off so the pops don't smash your finger. You will know if the skirt gets stuck. Mine was sticking only when hit by the ball in a certain little spot. That is why it was hard to diagnose. Very intermittent.

#37 4 years ago

Thanks I'll check that as well.

#38 4 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

"The socket" you mean the right visor GI flasher lamp socket?

Yes the lamp socket. Every one was a newbie at some time, 1989 for me when I got my High Speed. I still have it. There is a connector in the back box for the topper. You can disconnect it and try that for a while too.

#39 4 years ago

New development. I investigated that visor flasher GI. I found out that the circuit was indeed working, 3 of my led lamps (installed by the previous owner) were dead and the tab on one lamp socket was pried so the solder was touching the other part of the lamp socket which is supposed to be isolated by the rubber/paper bushing...

So, I pried them back so they are free and put things back in place cleanly. I need new lamps.

I suspect the previous owner to have messed with the lamp sockets when installing the led... He was terrible at fixes and mods, you should have seen his solder jobs...

Anyway, played 2 games and was fine but I got to play more. I'll report back.

While I was at it, I looked at my fuse while testing the coils again and I could clearly see it "pulse" pretty hard for certain coil. Is that normal or a sign that the fuse will eventually fail under these condition?

#40 4 years ago

Now up to 4 games without blown fuse...

#41 4 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

New development. I investigated that visor flasher GI. I found out that the circuit was indeed working, 3 of my led lamps (installed by the previous owner) were dead and the tab on one lamp socket was pried so the solder was touching the other part of the lamp socket which is supposed to be isolated by the rubber/paper bushing...
So, I pried them back so they are free and put things back in place cleanly. I need new lamps.
I suspect the previous owner to have messed with the lamp sockets when installing the led... He was terrible at fixes and mods, you should have seen his solder jobs...
Anyway, played 2 games and was fine but I got to play more. I'll report back.
While I was at it, I looked at my fuse while testing the coils again and I could clearly see it "pulse" pretty hard for certain coil. Is that normal or a sign that the fuse will eventually fail under these condition?

If by "pulse" you mean the fuse is glowing when a certain coil fires then this is not normal. This will stress the fuse and it will fail prematurely.

Check the resistance of the coil under test. There was some confusion over 2.5A or 4A fuses earlier in the thread. If you are using a 2.5A fuse where a 4A fuse should go then this might also account for the "pulse"

#42 4 years ago

Backbox says 4a and that is what I'm using. It's the single wire with the solder dot in the middle design type of fuse. Not the coil type.

The fuse does not glow but I can see the wire bend/arc when tests are performed on the circuit.

#43 4 years ago

I tested the current at the flasher GI section and I was at 35.7 or 37.5, can't remember. I believe this should be 34v DC circuit.

#44 4 years ago

Sounds like you're not using a SLO-BLO fuse when you should be.

#45 4 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

I tested the current at the flasher GI section and I was at 35.7 or 37.5, can't remember. I believe this should be 34v DC circuit.

Either of these voltages are fine.

+1 what Cody said. Sounds like you are not using a Slo Blo fuse.

#47 4 years ago

That's still a slow blow fuse. Pefectly acceptable.

Quoted from Plumonium:

I tested the current at the flasher GI section and I was at 35.7 or 37.5, can't remember. I believe this should be 34v DC circuit.

Correction to vocabulary (bear with me, this is for clarity) You tested the flasher voltage at 35.7 VDC, not current. Also GI is a different animal. 35.7 VDC is fine on the "approximately 34 VDC" solenoids section.

Did you repin the connectors, and make sure you have clean and shiny fuse holder contacts. If this fuse is warping or glowing a bit too much current (amperage) is being drawn through this circuit.

#48 4 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

While I was at it, I looked at my fuse while testing the coils again and I could clearly see it "pulse" pretty hard for certain coil.

Thought it was happening with all coils. Happening with one specific coil? Problem should be local to that coil, start by checking for free and fluid movement of the mechanisms/plunger. Check coil resistance, make sure it is correct coil, etc...

#49 4 years ago

The fuse "pulsed" for every coil/solenoid test. Some test more that other.

I did not repin the connectors yet nor removed my power supply board from the backbox to check for cold or cracked joints. Should I?

One thing I found is that the wire strand that hold the 34v from the power supply board to the cabinet has a junction (connector) in the cabinet. This connector was angled and halfway IN. I set it back in properly. Possible cause for blowing a fuse?

I would still see my fuse "pulse" after above so I'm wondering is it changed anything.

Is there a way for me to test if there is indeed "too much" current going through the said fuse?

#50 4 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

I did not repin the connectors yet nor removed my power supply board from the backbox to check for cold or cracked joints. Should I?

Yes, at least check them well. Poor connectors are huge for causing excess current draw. This is why many games have burned up GI connectors. Oxidation, age, weakened connectors will heat up, increasing current draw which raises the resistance and causes current draw to increase further. This becomes a "thermal runaway train" as the cycle repeats over and over. Not saying this is definitely the cause but it is high on the list of suspects. Another is the fuse holder itself: should be clean, tight and have no cold or cracked solder.

Quoted from Plumonium:

Is there a way for me to test if there is indeed "too much" current going through the said fuse?

Connect an ammeter in series. Typically, most better DMMs have this capability. If you don't know how to do it here's a link
http://www.wikihow.com/Measure-Amperage

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