(Topic ID: 74287)

Pinbot Help Please **Opinions needed please!!!** MPU issues?


By ShootForSlrValue

5 years ago



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  • 44 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Blackbeard
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 5 years ago

I just picked up a pinbot last night which was working perfectly fine when I got there to look at it. Get it home, plugged in and as fate would have it, I'm having some issues already.

First, every time I power up the game, I'm getting an "adjust failure" message. Replaced the batteries with three brand new ones and I'm still seeing the message. No corrosion on the MPU and the old batteries hadn't leaked at all. Not sure what to do next.

Second, the left flipper is extremely sluggish. It will stay in kind of an up position and return to rest very slowly, but when I move things around under the playfield it doesn't feel like there are any mechanical obstructions. I can't even get the ball to the visor now. it's good for tap passing though.

Third, the kick out arm in the right eyeball is stuck in the up position. You can return it to rest by pressing down in it, however, it doesn't return to rest on its own. Again, under the playfield it feels to me like it's moving freely.

Completely lost. Any help is more than appreciated.

#2 5 years ago

there is likely acid damage, but its under the holder. or check and make sure there are actually contacts on both ends of each battery position. The contacts can get broken off leaving one end of the batter touching noting but insulation.

#3 5 years ago

The adjust failure I think has to be reset by the buttons inside the coin door. I think you press the middle one then one of the others but don't remember and it should reset to attract mode.

Hope that helps some.
Tim

#4 5 years ago

1. When you get the "adjust failure", do you have the coin door closed when you power the game on? If you open the door and then power it on, do you get the message "factory setting"? If you do not have acid damage and have installed new batteries, my guess is that you need a new battery holder. There are steps that you go through to determine if this is the case. I will try to find it and post it.

2. You need to rebuild that flipper. It is pretty easy. Sounds like it is binding. Check to make sure the wires are connected firmly.

3. On this one, loosen the four screws for the assembly and move it slightly. It is also binding. Find the right spot where it will move freely and then retighten the screws. It may take a couple of tries to get it right, but this is common for these types of assemblies.

#5 5 years ago

Here is the link for adjustment failure http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index3.htm#factory It is 3n on the page.

#6 5 years ago

check out this link for some information on your error message. I had the same issue with my Pinbot and it was that my battery was not making contact.

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#System_11_.22Adjust_Failure.22_and_.22Factory_Setting.22

Kick out arm in the eye sounds like it is simply gummed up. It is easy to remove just a couple of screws. Then completely disassemble clean it really good, I use a Harbor Freight Ultrasonic cleaner, but some simple green and then polish metal parts with some 0000 steel wool will do just fine. Then lube the metal parts that touch with Super Lube Synthetic Grease.

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Here is what the response I got regarding lubrication.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lubrication-1

As far as your flipper it may feel like nothing is binding but as a first step disassemble the flipper and check that the coil sleeve is okay and that the coil has not overheated and become distorted. Clean everything in the flipper if there is no damage. No lubrication on the flipper parts! Probably best just to rebuild the flippers.

Let us know how it goes.

Al

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from justdavid:

1. When you get the "adjust failure", do you have the coin door closed when you power the game on? If you open the door and then power it on, do you get the message "factory setting"? If you do not have acid damage and have installed new batteries, my guess is that you need a new battery holder. There are steps that you go through to determine if this is the case. I will try to find it and post it.
2. You need to rebuild that flipper. It is pretty easy. Sounds like it is binding. Check to make sure the wires are connected firmly.
3. On this one, loosen the four screws for the assembly and move it slightly. It is also binding. Find the right spot where it will move freely and then retighten the screws. It may take a couple of tries to get it right, but this is common for these types of assemblies.

I've been getting both of those messages when the door is both open and closed when I turn the game on. I'll definitely try rebuilding that flipper and messing with the other assembly. Thanks for your help.

Thanks to everyone else as well for their input. It's been super helpful!

#8 5 years ago

Something else I forgot to mention... NONE of the flashers are working. Not the sun, energy value when bumpers are hit, and yellow lights surrounding the machine. What could be causing this?

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

Something else I forgot to mention... NONE of the flashers are working. Not the sun, energy value when bumpers are hit, and yellow lights surrounding the machine. What could be causing this?

I'd start by checking the solenoid V+ 25 volt path and A/C select relay for operation, here's how it works:

"Multiplexing works like this; when the bank select relay is de-energized, solenoid
power (25 volts) is connected to bank "A". Then only solenoids 1A to 8A can be
driven by the driver transistors. There is no power available to bank "C". The "A"
bank is usually reserved for coils and bank "C" for flashers.
When the bank select relay is energized, solenoid power V+ (25 volts) is connected
to bank "C". Then only solenoids 1C to 8C can be driven by the driver transistors.
There is no power available to bank "A". The "C" bank is usually reserved for flash
lamps."

#10 5 years ago

Pop the hood. Look at the bottom of the cab. Any ceramic resistors laying around down there?

That's probably the cause of your missing flashers.

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Pop the hood. Look at the bottom of the cab. Any ceramic resistors laying around down there?
That's probably the cause of your missing flashers.

If coincidentally all of them were broken, this is possible.

Here's the quote from the repair guide on how to check the A/C select if the resistors are not all broken:

"First Test the Solenoid A/C Select Relay!
If the solenoid A/C select relay is not working correctly, you will have all kinds of coil problems. A messed up A/C relay, if stuck on bank "C", won't give any power to coils 1 to 8. If the relay is constantly energized (stuck on bank "C"), it's probably because it's driver transistor (either Q7 or Q8) is shorted. If it's stuck on bank "A" (where the relay sits at rest) or won't energize, the flashlamps in the game won't work.

I recommend the first thing you do is to test the solenoid A/C select relay. To do this, take your aligator test wire and connect it to the metal tab on transistor Q7 (Fire! or before) or Q8 (Big Guns or later). Then with the game on and in attract or diagnostic mode, touch the other end of the aligator clip to the ground strap in the backbox. You should hear the A/C select relay click on and off on the power supply or Auxiliary power driver board.

If you don't hear the relay "click", you should now test transistor Q7/Q8. The quick and easy way to do this is:

Turn the game off.
Put your DMM on ohms (buzz tone).
Put one lead on the ground strap in the backbox.
Touch the other lead to the metal tab on transistor Q7/Q8.
If you get zero ohms (buzz), the transistor is bad! (shorted on)"

#12 5 years ago

True Wayout.

When I got my pinbot, none worked. Most ceramics were laying on the bottom of the cab.. the other flashers, like the Energy Value ones had just burned out..

SO, yes, check all of the above.. AND look for any burnt bulbs. Pinbot is one of those games that was played a lot. Could be a mix of a bunch of things.

#13 5 years ago

PINBOT CIRCUITS ACTIVAT>WENJOIUONas,.asd...

Bummer about the machine, but out of the 5 machines I've moved into my house, only 1 did not have issues when I got it into the basement. This is what happens when you move them unfortunately. Now you'll have a little more respect for the vendors/operators that were moving these things around all over all the time.

#14 5 years ago

So I'm still working on the above issues, and I've come across yet another problem. There's a rotten dog board in the backbox, and F5 is blowing immediately upon turning the game on. Am I correct in saying there's a short somewhere? How would I know where the short could be coming from?

#15 5 years ago

I tried testing the bridge recitfiers and they all tested right under 500 for all four points on each rectifier. Any ideas on next steps?

#16 5 years ago

Not sure what you mean by tested right under 500...500 ohms? Seems to me you are not testing the bridge correctly. It needs to be removed from the circuit first, and each diode tested for forward and reverse bias. On each set of terminals take a diode test reading in both directions, for a total of 8 readings ( 2 reading on each diode ). The diodes will read OPEN in one direction & the breakdown voltage will be shown on the meter in the other direction ( typically .4-.6volts ).

Did you confirm that the problem is on the power supply board? Disconnect 3J5 & 3J6. If F5 doesn't blow you probably have a problem elsewhere, if you still blow F5 then there's definitely something wrong on the PSU board. F5 serves the 12VDC to 5VDC conversion, that feeds the displays through 3J5, main logic through 3J6, also feeds the +/-12VDC unregulated through 3J6 to the sound board.

#17 5 years ago

I haven't read everything in between, sorry, but as for the adjuster failure, that's the batteries and corrosion, replace with a satellite pack inside the head, removed all corrosion. You can get by this with quick on/off flicks.

As for the plunger for the eye being stuck up, when you turn off the machine, does it stay up? If so, rebuild the mech, if not, you likely have a locked on coil and a shorted transistor, which may segue into your blowing fuse issue.

As for the flashers, looks like that has been covered, but on pinbots, these do get blown more than other games it seems given how much they go off. Most of mine where burnt out, and the other's had the 330 ohm ceramics falling out.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Not sure what you mean by tested right under 500...500 ohms? Seems to me you are not testing the bridge correctly. It needs to be removed from the circuit first, and each diode tested for forward and reverse bias. On each set of terminals take a diode test reading in both directions, for a total of 8 readings ( 2 reading on each diode ). The diodes will read OPEN in one direction & the breakdown voltage will be shown on the meter in the other direction ( typically .4-.6volts ).
Did you confirm that the problem is on the power supply board? Disconnect 3J5 & 3J6. If F5 doesn't blow you probably have a problem elsewhere, if you still blow F5 then there's definitely something wrong on the PSU board. F5 serves the 12VDC to 5VDC conversion, that feeds the displays through 3J5, main logic through 3J6, also feeds the +/-12VDC unregulated through 3J6 to the sound board.

I disconnected 3J5 and 3J6 and F5 still blew. So now do I need to go after a replacement board?

#19 5 years ago

Could there be a short somewhere?

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

Could there be a short somewhere?

yes, or component failure, anywhere within the red box below. If you have no experience in electronics, a replacement board is a viable option to consider.
pinbotpsu1.jpg

#21 5 years ago

I think I may have isolated the issue to BR1. Whenever it is not connected to the power supply, a fuse does not blow.

#22 5 years ago

locked on this thread for my pinbot issues

#23 5 years ago

So I went back and tested the recitifiers using a diode test off circuit.

The rectifier that leads to F5 showed 490 and 520 between the positive lead and the AC legs. Between the negative and positive legs, I got a reading of 1800. The other rectifier tested about the same between negative and AC legs, and I got a tone whenever I tested negative and positive legs with a "negative" reading (-1100).

#24 5 years ago

If the rectifiers are giving you the same values, they are probably working properly, granted you tested them with nothing connected to them in diode test mode and went around to make sure none of the diodes in the bridge were shorted.

Your next step would be to check the diodes on the power supply, the two 1n4001s. If they have shorted, that will definitely cause fuses to blow. If any are shorted, you'll also need to inspect the surrounding components for failures.

#25 5 years ago

The diodes are testing at 630. Now something different is happening. The game will turn on, the F5 did not blow, but the fuse that's in the power supply under the playfield blew. Replaced it, turned game on, there was some flickering, and now the left ramp is stuck in the up position and this usually blows the fuse under the playfield again. I can definitely smell something coming from the machine.

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

Something else I forgot to mention... NONE of the flashers are working. Not the sun, energy value when bumpers are hit, and yellow lights surrounding the machine. What could be causing this?

Don't forget to check the obvious. When I got my PinBot, none of the flashers were working. Went trhough the usuals, fuses, transistors, flasher boards, etc, then I realized that they were just burned out. Yes, every single flasher, pops, sun, ramps, backboard, even topper, had burned out years ago and never been replaced. Doh!

#27 5 years ago

At this point, I'm really concerned that there's a serious electrical problem because it definitely smells like electrical burn somewhere, I just can't see where it's coming from and nothing looks burnt or damaged.

So in essence:
1. I tried replacing F5 several times and it blew each time at startup.

2. I found the wire that went to F5 was wire 2 of the CN1X12 (rottendog power supply board) connector, which ultimately lead to BR1; whenever this connector was disconnected, F5 did not blow, which led me to assume that BR1 was bad. However, each test on the bridge came back between .4 and .6. Does this necessarily rule out that BR1 could be bad?

3. I tested each diode on the rottendog power supply. There were two diodes that came back at .645 and all others were between .4 and .6.

4. I replaced F5 one more time just to do it, and the game turned on, all coils kicked and F5 did NOT blow. However, the left ramp became locked in the up position and I turned the game off. After this, I couldn't turn the game back on and smelled something burning. I found that the fuse in the power supply box under the playfield had blown. Replaced it with a 4 AMP 250 volt fuse, turned game on, and got the same flickering and kind of wonky startup. This time, the ramp kicked up when the ball was kicked into the shooting lane and the coil continually tried kicking the ramp into the up position, but the ramp would never get back to the down position. Tested diode at coil under ramp and it read at .05. Smelled the burning again and have since decided that I should probably stop while my house hasn't burnt to the ground yet.

5. Considering parting it out.

How frustrating.

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

At this point, I'm really concerned that there's a serious electrical problem because it definitely smells like electrical burn somewhere, I just can't see where it's coming from and nothing looks burnt or damaged.
So in essence:
1. I tried replacing F5 several times and it blew each time at startup.
2. I found the wire that went to F5 was wire 2 of the CN1X12 (rottendog power supply board) connector, which ultimately lead to BR1; whenever this connector was disconnected, F5 did not blow, which led me to assume that BR1 was bad. However, each test on the bridge came back between .4 and .6. Does this necessarily rule out that BR1 could be bad?
3. I tested each diode on the rottendog power supply. There were two diodes that came back at .645 and all others were between .4 and .6.
4. I replaced F5 one more time just to do it, and the game turned on, all coils kicked and F5 did NOT blow. However, the left ramp became locked in the up position and I turned the game off. After this, I couldn't turn the game back on and smelled something burning. I found that the fuse in the power supply box under the playfield had blown. Replaced it with a 4 AMP 250 volt fuse, turned game on, and got the same flickering and kind of wonky startup. This time, the ramp kicked up when the ball was kicked into the shooting lane and the coil continually tried kicking the ramp into the up position, but the ramp would never get back to the down position. Tested diode at coil under ramp and it read at .05. Smelled the burning again and have since decided that I should probably stop while my house hasn't burnt to the ground yet.
5. Considering parting it out.
How frustrating.

Comments on above:

1) As you have found out, replacing the fuse repeatedly is not going to fix the problem.

2) CN1X12 is the AC input to the power supply board. I have the same Rottendog supply in my F-14. It is the equivalent to connector 3J1 of the stock power supply D-8345. If you are disconnecting this connector, then yes of course the fuse F5 om the Rottendog won't blow, because there is no power input to BR1 without it. Are you talking about BR1 on the power supply, or are you talking about 6BR1 mounted to the wall of the backbox (lamp rectifier)?

3) I don't see any problem there - .645 should be fine for forward bias on those diodes. For reference .7 volts is nominal for a silicon diode.

4) Stopping when you have a problem is a good thing. This game really needs to be gone through, and this is not easy for a beginner with little electronics background. There's a lot to it. This can be difficult and time consuming, not to mention frustrating. Recommended: A lot of reading of the repair guides, pinwikis and such before poking around. A second set of knowledgeable eyes on site would really help you here.

5) Why part it out? It certainly sounds repairable. IMO, parting out is something you do to a game that is seriously a disaster - such as a flood - if there are any good parts left at all. People restore games that have many problems, sometimes they have to replace lots of parts, components, rebuild the harnesses, repaint the cabinets and replace playfields. A game that is having some electrical problems is not a good reason to part it out (again - just my thoughts) It just seems you may be (don't take it the wrong way) in way over your head at this time.

#29 5 years ago

Wayout, thanks so much for your help and replies. I would never part it out haha. It was mainly sarcasm speaking to how frustrated I am.

I'm not sure what I've done, but the game except for the left ramp being stuck in the up position. It will kick up, that coil will repeatedly fire like something is telling it to kick up. I've tested the diode on the coil and it's testing just fine.

#30 5 years ago

That smell may have been a cap leaking/burning up. Physically inspect all your electrolytic caps on the power supply and elsewhere, including the ones on the relay boards on the underside of the playfield.

#31 5 years ago

I'm gonna chalk this one up in the L section. Now I've lost all GI and I'm blowing the fuse in the power box under the playfield.

#32 5 years ago

Disconnect your power supply connectors, test out your incoming AC voltages from the transformer (if you are comfortable with doing that). I'd also inspect solder tabs on high voltage areas like coils and surrounding components to make sure nothing is touching anywhere and shorting out on the underside of the playfield. Pictures may help at this point.

#33 5 years ago

Where exactly would I test there? That's the problem. I'm not familiar enough with how/where to test certain things. Here are some photos. Working on getting more. On the last photo, the piece on the third from the left has come off of the soldering pad. This controls lamps correct?

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#34 5 years ago

Coils

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#35 5 years ago

Well I think I figured out why my flashers weren't working... I found the flash lamp resistor boards with at least one of the resistors not connected to the board. Also, I replaced the diode on the solenoid under the ramp. The purple/green wire connected to this coil was BARELY hanging on and came off without me even trying to unsolder it... Which, correct me if I'm wrong, was probably what was causing my short? Does the photo of the coil look okay? I made sure the diode was going in the right direction.

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#36 5 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

The purple/green wire connected to this coil was BARELY hanging on and came off without me even trying to unsolder it... Which, correct me if I'm wrong, was probably what was causing my short? Does the photo of the coil look okay? I made sure the diode was going in the right direction.

A wire hanging off/lack of a connection is termed an "open". An unwanted connection between another part of the electrical circuit is a "short".

The photo itself looks o.k., but the visual tells only part of the story. Components can be bad and show no visual indicators.

Some things I noticed immediately in your photos.
> Yellow C11232 relay in the photo has a big hole in it. That's bad...and probably the source of the smell you reported.
> Those batteries need to come off that motherboard

#37 5 years ago

Also, if you are rebuilding the flippers, replace the switches for the flipper buttons too if they look very worn. The current for the coil travels through them and if they are not making a good contact, the flippers will be weak.

#38 5 years ago

Great photo set. Agreed with replacing that relay. Made sure you replace it with the correct relay, there are ac and DC ones and it matters what type you use. The relay also has to have the same number of solder lugs on it.

#39 5 years ago

Thank you all for your help. I will replace that relay for sure. Do I need to replace the lamp resistor boards? Also, something I just found interesting... When I disconnect 3J6 from the power supply, all of my GI turns back on and I don't get the stuttering I have been. What should I test next? I feel like I'm getting super close. Merry Christmas all!

#40 5 years ago

Here's a before and after of when I have the 3J6 connector in (displays on) and then with it out (all GI and back glass lights on)

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#41 5 years ago

So... Whenever I unplug 1J17 on the MPU, but leave 3J6 left plugged in, I get GI as pictured above (no lights on LED test diagnosing thingamabob on MPU) and the same happens when I leave 1J17 plugged in and unplug 3j6. However, when I have both plugged in, the game boots properly, gives me playfield lamps, no GI except for right visor eye, and all three lights on MPU turn on. This makes sense because as mentioned above, 3J6 feeds 1J17 power for the logic supply. I figured I would add this information just in case it could broaden the steps I may need to take to fix this.

1 week later
#42 5 years ago

So I was getting really close to fixing this with a friend, and now I've hit another wall.

The good news: I have flashers.

The bad news: my MPU Is fried.

Here's what's happened within the last two weeks: I took the game to my friends house who is significantly more experienced than I am when it comes to troubleshooting, testing etc... When we powered it on, we found that I had lost sound as well, later found to be a wire that had come out of the connector (more on this later). We found that three of the flash lamp resistor boards under the playfield needed replaced as well. We wanted to fix everything peripherally before we started looking at possibly sending the board off. So. I've replaced the flasher boards, I now have flashers.

However, after we got those replaced, we reconnected the wire that disconnected from the connector on the sound card... This is where things get weird. Once we reconnected the wire, the game will restart when the game is either started OR during multiball when the solar value jackpot is scored. The switches that are behind the start button and under the ramp are not touching to bare metal or other wires. It happens spontaneously other times but these two events are what trigger it most often. If the wire that disconnected was taken back out or the entire connector was removed, the game did not reset. We tested across the test points to see if we could witness a voltage drop across the boards, to no avail. We decided to take the MPU off and take a look. The photos show what we saw as well.. Capacitor C66 has melted, there is a trace coming off of the board, and Q17 does not look like the original. Looking at the schematic (CPU pg 2 of 4), C66 controls part of the lamp drivers- so this should only affect one row of lights, correct?

So here's an updated problem list:

Problem list:

1. No GI (back glass or playfield) - this resolves if 1J17 is unplugged or of the logic power supply is removed from the power supply, but game will not boot.

3. Coil under the left ramp keeps firing when it should not be during gameplay, but works fine during diagnostic testing

4. Game resets when start button is pressed or during multiball and the solar value jackpot is scored (other times spontaneously, but those two trigger it most often) **most recent issue which prompted me to look more closely at MPU**

4. Left flipper weak (doing a flipper rebuild)

5. Right eyeball kicker stuck in up position (mechanical, not electrical issue, doing a rebuild)

8. Right eyeball lamp will turn off and on during coil tests l (coil will activate, light off, coil deenergized, light turns back on)

Past problems that resolved spontaneously:
1. "Adjust failure" message showing up (replaced batteries, but still happened occasionally, then stopped)
2. Blowing F5 on startup
3. Blowing main power fuse under playfiels on powerup, has since resolved.

Would the components affected by this failure cause the symptoms I'm having? I want to figure this out before I ship this off or splurge on an aftermarket board.

Please help! Do I send this off for repair? Or is this even fixable! Opinions needed please!!
Thanks all!!

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#44 5 years ago

For like 80$ you can get it repaired.

Contact Clive at coin op cauldron. Send him the power board too. It's worth the investment.

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