After a few months of moving hell, I'm finally returning to a project PinBot I picked up just before, uh, the hell of moving. There were several prior hacks and poor repairs, and I've untangled a few... but there's a few more that would be easier if I knew exactly how the game should behave.

Anyway to get to the point, can someone explain how the "left visor" and "right visor" bulbs are supposed to work? As in when they are on, and when they are off, and such?

It looks like there are three sockets for each side but I don't yet know if they are controlled independently or what. And as it happens none of them were populated - just one clue among several that a PO had major issues with the flasher circuits. Further complicating my troubleshooting, most of the resistor boards need work as the resistors fell off. I also suspect an issue in the MPU special solenoids section: the transistor (Q71) for that part is *completely* blown out (and the triggering 7402 at U45 might be bad also since its associated pops and sling don't work correctly either).

But the right visor lock, when I put a bulb in, is on all of the time. Is that correct? The term "GI" confuses me here since I'm used to GI staying on all the time... but then why is it in the solenoid section, and why is the left on "special"? And if that right visor lock socket wants to be on, which other sockets should be on with it?

Thanks. That would make sense. And I think you're right in that technically 4 of the bulbs fit into holes in the playfield, but two stay belw the pf (under the lock saucers).

But mine are labeled to be 1251 bulbs, not 89. I think my manual says this as well. Was a change made at some point?

And just to clarify the lamp behavior: are they lit solid before the visor opens, and just begin to flash at that point? Or do they stay dark until it opens and should only ever flash, not remain solid lit? And do both eyes (sides) work in unison, or can they work independently?

Wow that was an awesome and perfect help. Beers to you for taking the time... thank you!

I debugged enough to finally play my first game tonight! With caveats and a cry for help that I'll get to in a minute. From where I came from with its acquired state (hacked flashers, a fried transistor, shorted pop switch (leafs assembled next to each other!), locking coils at start, switch terminals shorted to nearby brackets, etc etc etc), I feel mighty accomplished for getting it to pass all the tests and almost play a full game!

Yeah, so here's where the "almost" comes in. I had to work on the Special Soleniod section because all four coils associated to U45 were acting up: the left sling and left pop would lock on, the left visor flasher was fried, and the bottom pop would not work at all. There were several issues going on but the short of it for here is, for the left visor flasher (Q71) I had to replace the TIP122, 4401, and 5W resistor. I also replaced U45 with a new 74LS02.

Now there's no more issues at power on or attract, and I can start and play a game. But after about two minutes, the special solenoids act up again. First time this happened, the left sling began acting erratic by pulsing more steadily until it locked on its own. I powered down before any real damage was done. After a couple minutes I turned it on again and all was fine. I started a new game to troubleshoot and again after a couple minutes, this time the bottom pop exhibited the same behavior.

Each time, only the specific associated transistor was hot. But what gets me is why the different ones each time, and after a couple minutes? Nothing else on the board looks or smells suspect.

Could this be a mere symptom of needing to replace those other TIP122s outright, or something else (the 7402, now 74LS02, at U45) randomizing the symptom upstream? I'd rather not shotgun everything yet, but I'm not sure where to look first...

That's my understanding, which is why I found the behavior puzzling.

But I did some reading on my IC at U45 hunch and it turns out, the 74LS series is probably not a good sub in this application. Unfortunately it was all I had for a 74()02. The LS series draws low power and runs at high speed... sounds great right.... but it only supports a lower max current draw... oops, the special solenoids would especially be more than it likes!

So now speculating, that might explain why things get wonky after a short time in play... AND why the fault is not a hard-lock state... AND why it manifests on a random circuit (maybe the one most in use as it happens?). I'm catching the problem before the IC goes totally poof, but I'll have to get a standard 7402 and see if that solves the issue.

If it doesn't, well things will certainly be more interesting then won't they?!

Thanks. I ordered both from GPE today and hope to have them soon. Meanwhile, I remembered I had a roached Sys6 driver board with a couple 7402's on it, so I harvested those and ran some tests tonight. The results were intriguing! Since this could probably apply to other Sys11 games as well, I spun off a new thread earlier, and my updates are there:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sys11-special-solenoids-7402-short-bus-wonkiness

The grime, the grime... oh my god the grime... I think someone removed mylar in the whole section around the top pop (WHHYYYY?!?!?!) but left the adhesive and it turned to caulk! Despite this I've made good progress on my proj-bot and while I don't think it's a good candidate for a full resto (playfield has too many different random issues) it's cleaning up decently. I debugged the hacks and other problem areas and the game now plays - quite smoothly in fact! Can't wait to see how it plays once I get a few parts in.

Only major problem left seems to be the flashers: nothing operated by a resistor board seems to be working. The inserts stay dark while the visor ones stay on. But I'm still waiting on new resistors, guess Ed at GPE got slammed after the break.

Anyway, a favor to ask since I'm sure some of you have upgraded your plastics with new CPR sets. Would anyone have some serviceable spares of that large blue plastic in the back left corner? Or the multicolor one behind the round chest targets? On mine, the blue one is missing a broken piece near the visor, while the multicolor one is badly faded. If it helps, I have a couple spares of my own to trade: keychains and lane covers primarily.

As I said before, this game probably won't get the full showpiece resto treatment, but it affordable used pieces that are better than what I've got are out there, I wouldn't mind to do what I can for the old bot.

Bump on spare plastics from anyone? Willing pay reasonable amount for decent used ones, or I can trade. Looking for the big blue one (or even just the "finger" next to the visor), the red one over the round chest targets, and the clear shuttle arc over the vortex.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, I need some help to figure out how the large visor bulb sockets should be wired. Someone did a major hack job on these because nothing makes sense, and I can't find a clear reference. Even the workmanship doesn't betray what's factory and what's later.

When I got the machine NO bulbs were present, and the Left Visor solenoid section was completely fried. I repaired the solenoid section and installed bulbs. Now, all the bulbs stay constantly lit.

But it gets stranger than that. The left side is constantly on, but the transistor does not get warm, and I can never tell that it is trying to flash. The right side is constantly on, but its intensity does vary when it should be flashing.

OK, so what lurks below the playfield? Here's the left visor:

LeftVisorProblembulbs (resized).jpg

This side is fully lit all the time. It does not attempt to flash. Looking at the wiring, we see the harness come in (via green and red wires) to feed the bulb closest to it. That bulb connects to the lock bulb. Then the lock bulb connects to the last bulb. Essentially a series-parallel setup.

This is completely different from the right side:

RightVisorProblemBulbs (resized).jpg

This side stays lit but does flash. Are here we see as before, the harness feeds into the first bulb.... but from there, it goes directly to both the lock bulb and the last bulb. More of a parallel-only setup. Now it looks like this might have been done to help route wire around the lock mech... but in order to maintain consistent voltage and performance, shouldn't both sides match?

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE because speaking of things that don't match, it gets better! Now I know that for AC bulbs polarity doesn't matter, but I am used to the convention that "base (positive) tabs" on sockets all share the same line, while the "barrel (ground) tabs" share another. Because that's critically important with controlled lamps like these.

So now look at the left visor again: the gray line connects Bulb 1 (near harness) base tab, connects to lock bulb's barrel, connects to bulb 3's barrel.

but on the right visor: the gray line connects Bulb 1 (near harness) base tab, to lock bulb's barrel, connects to bulb 3's *base*!

ARRRGH nothing is sensible, or consistent, or even wrong in the same way...!

So this poor ol' PinBot beseeches thee: can someone post clear photos of their stock wiring so I can compare? Thank you!

That's a fair excellent point and to be honest, that's what I was thinking long before I posted. But just to solve the "chicken or egg?" problem I wanted to be sure the wiring was correct. I'd already fixed switches that were assembled wrong, other bulbs that had both leads soldered to the same tab, and other hacks so hopefully you understand where I was suspicious and ultimately confused!

Now with that being said, back to suspecting the MPU board: The left visor lights are locked on, BUT the transistor does not get warm or fry in the way we're used to with coils. Is that because the lamps are a lower load, or is there some other failure mode to cause this?

And as for the right visors being locked on, but still flashing (like a combo brake light and turn signal on a car)... what gives there? How could they be locked on AND flash?

So yeah, that's why I thought maybe the wiring was suspect. Thanks for clarifying.

I do have a probe but I'm unsure of where to start here.

When I rebuilt the solenoid section for the left visor, I was unaware that U45 was also bad. Could that bad 7402 have nuked the downstream transistors again?

Well since Grumpy vetted the visor wiring for me above that was just what I needed to know, to turn my attention back the MPU (I mean, what were the odds both sides would be buggered up to start, so no sense poking the boards if wiring could fry them again).

So I pulled the board and metered the components. Sure enough, the tip122 at Q71 (left visor) was shorted internally, with continuity across all three poles. Weird - I've never seen that before on a transistor that wasn't visibly shot, but I guess that explains how it "worked" enough to light the bulbs without getting hot. Its predriver passed the quick-and-dirty diode test, and all the other special solenoids were working properly, so I replaced Q71 again.

For the right visor, Q9 (tip122) and Q5 (2n4401) tested faulty. Can't remember the location ID, but the 7408 directly upstream from those tested OK on board. So I replaced Q9 and Q5.

Put the board back in and powered up the game... when the visor stayed dark I held bated breath in hopes I hadn't simply immediately blown the new parts (or something else). Went into coil test and... success! Put the game in attract mode and... success! And it's late so I didn't start a game, but for now I'm calling that a win.

Thanks to all who chimed in as I got this thing running again. This refugee (from a Cincinnati radio station) is the first time I've really played PinBot and it's a LOT more fun than I expected... looking forward to adding it to the lineup!

OK so more in the flasher saga. I played some games this morning before work. After several minutes, the right side locked on again... with the same symptom that it's on, but can still flash brighter when it's supposed to.

After work I turned the game on and after a few seconds of being dark, the right side sorft of flickered back on again.

So I removed the board for more investigation. Transistor tested fine, as does the predriver. The connection point to the resistor network was out of spec, though... so I removed the tip122 to get a clean test. When I did this, the resistor network was fine. As were the other resistors. I put the same tip122 back in.

When I powered the game on, the right side was OK for a few minutes... then locked on again.

So I dug out the probe. According to the schematic, the 6821 PIA at U10 runs this section. Pin 11 is the one for this solenoid. When I put the game into coil test, pin 11 stays low until the right visor test... then it blinks high as it should. So my U10 6821 PIA is good.

Next in the chain is a 7408 at U18, pins 11, 12, and 13. 13 is blanking input, 12 is input from the PIA, and 11 is the output. Well, PIN 12 reads high all the time... but if I'm understanding correctly, this should only be high when U10's pin11 goes high. Is that correct? If so, I think I found my problem...

...(except I don't understand why it would have "reset" after I removed the components temporarily)??

So the saga continues....

I changed U18 tonight, and saw no change. Pin 12 remains high at all times. When turning the machine on after a long time cold, the right visor "flickers" gradually until it locks on. Which is consistent with a warm-up fracture theory, but it seems to happen quickly.

But here's a weirder part. For gits and shiggles I removed U18 (socketed now) and turned the machine on.... the problem remains! So it must not be U18 after all...

...I would think that means a hard-fault to a ground somewhere else, but everything physical looks clean. Logically it's a haystack.

So here's the weirdest part: there's no continuity from the PIA U10 Pin 11, to U18 pin 12. Remember, I confirmed the proper behavior of U10 by probing pin 11 when the coil test flashes the visor, and that pin blipped as expected.

But instead of power-off continuity from U18 Pin 12 to U10 pin 11... it's going to U10 Pin12...!?

Just when I think I'm understanding this stuff....

OK. This is beginning to drive me crazy. Crazy enough that part of my confusion above was because (and I really hate to admit this ) looking at U18 pin 11... happens to be in the middle right... so counting toward pin 12, I went left (like the row above) instead of right. Arrgh! I've tested these before, I know the pin numbers go on around counter-clockwise... I don't know HOW or WHEN I slipped into this stupid mistake but... sigh.

At least the good news is I have trace continuity where I should.

So I replaced U18 and installed a socket. Did the same thing for U10. Changed the tip122 at Q9 for a more robust tip102 (my board is not liking changing that transistor over and over, next time I'm going to have to run a jumper).

And the problem still remains. With a new flavor: it seems that any random circuit associated with U18 will act up. If all is well and I leave the game on long enough - and it took an hour once - the right visor will lock (guess the tip102 bought some extra time).

Other times I'd turn it on and the right visor would be fine but the backboard eyeballs will flicker.

After inspecting and checking my work per each of these... visor bulbs off, eyeballs off... but now the favorite symptom is for the playfield GI to flicker at random.

The only thing in common with these problem circuits is: U18! But I've swapped it a few times for brand-new 74LS08's and used 7408's with no change. I've also tried multiple PIA's too. I've checked the resistor networks in that section, and they test OK.

So that might point to me. So I toned all the relevant traces, checked my sockets, looked for shorts and fractures, etc. and I can't find anything obvious or hidden... of course that doesn't mean I'm not missing something....

And here's the real kicker. While the GI is flickering, if I probe U10 pin 13 (which runs the GI), it flickers in unison. What would make the PIA itself act weird like that? Or is it succumbing to some sort of back-emf from a problem downstream? I guess what I'm asking is, would the PIA signal be the cause or effect here?

PB_SolPIA (resized).png
PB_SolSchem (resized).jpg
PB_troublebdLabel (resized).jpg

Thanks Grumpy...!

Yeah, your problem board sounds eerily similar to what this one is becoming - almost near identical. The part I feel worst about is that it was reliably contained to just the Q9 circuit until I replaced U18 / U10... then it seemed to spread. FWIW, it spread when I replaced U18 first... which led me to think "Ahha, if U18 is good now I've exposed a bad PIA at U10". Sigh, not so fast. I can mix and match with no apparent correlation or resolution.

I only ever seem to get "one problem at a time", not all of them... so it's not a crash-consistent state pointing to something I did to component X or trace Y as far as I can tell. And I fixed all the special solenoid issues too so again, I hope my workmanship is proven. Seems I have a knack for finding the problems that are never quite as simple as they seem.

If you get beck to it (winter is coming, yay! haha) I'd love to know what you find out.

But you mention the blanking circuit being slow: I noticed that the CPU 5V led turns on instantly, but the blanking LED follows a second or two later. Is this normal? Seemed like a reasonable bootup time to me, so how slow is "slow"? I've not compared it to my other Sys11 games.

Well a box of parts from Marco showed up so I shelved my MPU troubleshooting and went about finishing the playfield work.

Here's Mr. Bot as I found him:

PinBot_B4_Fade (resized).jpg

Yeesh... he could have moonlighted as a Necro-bot, because the fading was horrible. This thing must have been in the window of a reception area. Basically everything red was ashen gray, and even the blues took a beating.

Mechanically the game was surprisingly sound and *wanted* to work. Visor mechs were solid. Flashers were all AWOL and no topper (I found the topper harness in the cabinet under the head).

But the game had been played to DEATH. See how blackened the mini-pf is? And note the missing post left of the visor: the ballguide behind had taken a beating which I'll show later.

Fortunately a timely ebay listing yielded some cheap serviceable used plastics including the visor face, so I at least got a quick dose of color back in:

Pinbot_Mid_Plastic (resized).jpg

As it happens, the playfield is not really a good restoration candidate. It's solid enough, flat, and plays well, but there's enough subtle planking and flaking beneath factory mylar to make removing the mylar an absolute no-go proposition.

But mylar's not the end of the world. Realizing that, I decided to restore the red in the pf by repainting it and then adding thin mylar in the touched up areas. A lot of those areas (lock lanes, outlanes, etc) lacked mylar in the first place, so mylaring them would make a consistent surface.

PinBite (resized).jpg

So yeah: there's that ball guide behind the missing post. I added a beefier 8-32 post so hopefully that will last a while.

And here's where I am now:

Pinbot_After (resized).jpg

I filled all the red areas back in, but left the faded planet orbits since those are kind of unique and interesting. Oh, and added one custom touch that seems painfully obvious, yet I've not seen anywhere.

I also fitted the backbox with a blend of cool led, warm led, and filament bulbs... I think the contrast and highlights look good:

Pinbot_Backbox (resized).jpg

Really enjoy playing this a lot more than I expected. The music is still fantastic too. After growing up with the NES version, having the real thing is especially neat

The right is darker because the vortex ramp covers everything there, but I agree it does look off-balance with the bleed illuminating the left. I might make a light block out of some spare black plastic I had lying around and see how that looks.

Speaking of looks:

The foam behind the chest targets had disintegrated, so I replaced it with strips of standard weatherstripping. The gray kind. And in a moment of laziness, I just used continuous strips instead of target-specific pieces... but I have to say, it actually looks pretty cool and matches the playfield! In fact, I probably need to add a third strip at the bottom just to complete the effect now.

TargetGrayback (resized).jpg

It's always bugged me that on the backbox, and in all the other places the character of PinBot himself shows up (promo plastics, art sketches, Taxi pf, NES version, etc) that his arm from shoulder to fingertip is completely red... yet Williams cheaped out and used a one-piece blue ramp into the shoulder (looking at the design and flow of that shot, a two-piece ramp would have been entirely do-able).

I've also been surprised that folks have gone through the trouble and expense of splitting the score displays into blue / red... which is awesome in itself... but just makes the disparity in the shoulder look even more jarring IMHO.

So I experimented with painting the ramp. I cleaned it up well, removed the switches, masked off the blue half, and used Krylon Fusion Cherry Red on the right half. The visor top conveniently hides the transition.

The finish was beautiful and plasticine! My biggest concern was with how well the paint would wear under the ball. So for that, I cut some mylar strips for the path and inside walls. Can't really tell they are there, and we all know that the paint beneath will be well protected and stay in place even if it ever does flake... which I honestly don't see happening given the ball's relatively calm path through that area.

At any rate, the shot flows every bit as well as well as it did before, and now the game looks as it *should* (IMO).

Here's what the red ramp looked like after painting:

20161210_164513 (resized).jpg

Not sure what the puddly-looking blob by the flasher dome hole is, but it didn't dry that way, it's as smooth as it should be. All in all it's a pretty easy mod. The trickiest and most time consuming part is cutting the mylar strips, but even then it's well worth the effort IMO.

~~~~~~~~~

And hopefully not jinxing myself by finally posting about it, especially for GRUMPY : for the past 4 days, my MPU "U18" issues detailed above have not reappeared... across dozens of games and a few cumulative hours.

I did measure the blanking voltage and while it's 4.97 at the source, it's only 3.68 at U18. So it appears there is some resistive loss occurring in the circuit I may need to be mindful of. But while my "U18 solenoid" woes were ongoing, new "IRQ Failure" messages, attract lockups, and other worrisome behavior began creeping in. Which pointed further to your CPU suggestion... but I swapped CPU chips with no success.

Thus getting nowhere but discouraged I went into the playfield work for a diversion. Which led me to tidy up connections overall. To that point I hadn't yet checked the connections on all the score displays (they were working, right?) but lo and behold... the ribbon cable to the master display was just a bit loose.

Seems stupid but after reseating that cable fully: all the problems went away, and, so far, have stayed away. As to why those symptoms crept in gradually, I must have dislodged it one of the times I'd moved it around to work on the MPU. Or maybe it worked loosed every time I opened the panel, because it's an aftermarket LED replacement from 2003 with a bunch of slack that's easily snagged.

So I'll take it. And wish if only everything were so simple...!

Probably! But don't forget to change the other side to blue then

Yessir... and if it ain't broke (yet), don't fix it There's pinball to be played!

Funny, I had the thought of suggesting it to Freeplay as I was painting mine, wondering if he could design a two-piece set. Never occurred to me that both ends of a single unit could be dyed differently. But nice to hear he's already wise to the idea! Maybe I'll bug him anyway. I'd like to get his transparent ramp for Space Station someday, but my repaired black one is still holding up great.

I have some concepts for replacement speaker panels. These are mods, made of stainless steel to match the other game trim, to cover the plain black fabric panel of with a higher-end look more akin to the rest of System 11.

Nothing available yet, since I'm seeking opinion on the concepts themselves first. The challenge for PinBot was to integrate it into the art, as opposed to something redundant. Check them out in the thread linked below. Your feedback would be appreciated...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinbot-stainless-steel-speaker-panel-concepts-interest#post-3583022

Yes that price was way higher than I expected last time, then shipping was another ~$25 per (I included shipping in that $140). Back then I used a distant and pricey (didn't realize *that* pricey) but known and trusted shop to do the work. This time I will shop around closer to home... And hopefully get a better quote!

Thanks for the comments.

Based on feedback so far, I revised the leading candidate and then tweaked it with a friggin' light-bulb-duh-brilliant idea... check it out there, I think it actually looks awesome now!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinbot-stainless-steel-speaker-panel-concepts-interest#post-3586401

My Pinbot was missing the topper.

I'm developing an altogether new one:

Antenna (resized).jpg

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-pinbot-topper-his-helmet-antennae

Can anyone confirm if you are supposed to be able to backhand the ramp from the left flipper?

Before I rebuilt the flippers, I was able to do this easily, but among the issues necessitating a rebuild, they did not look aligned exactly proper. So when I rebuilt the flippers, I aligned them to match the art on the game - which seems to key with using the little holes and a toothpick against the flipper rubber. But that backhand ramp shot is nigh impossible since, and even the shots to the drops from the right were more aggravating.

I rekeyed them back down a tad, using the toothpick against the flipper base and not the rubber, and the drop shots are fun once again. But lowering the left flipper moves the shot path *further* from the ramp, so it's still basically impossible.

So I can't understand how I was able to backhand that shot so consistently before...?

Yeah, I was thinking it might have been "too" easy before, owing to the excess coil stop wear and slop.... but then I didn't think it should be impossible either. The ball has only acquired the proper vector to hit the ramp maybe 5 times, and only once with sufficient power to make it all the way up. Something is off.

But opening up that backhand really transformed the game in terms of strategy, flow, and pace. It was soooo much more fun and playable with that backhand shot to me, anyway.

I had to modify the new flipper coil links (to make them tapered like the original ones, so that they would fit), so maybe that's what's wrong... might just have a little bit of binding at the end of the plunge. That would probably be enough to affect a shot from rest - as in backhanding direct from a cradle in this case - as opposed to any other shot where the ball has momentum.

Got my speaker panel cut and installed; have to say it looks better than expected! Love when that happens.

PanelCenter (resized).jpg

Here's the panel with some color-matched inserts as suggested by Grumpy:

PinbotPanelColor (resized).jpg

I'm really pleased with how this turned out! I do have a couple minor adjustments to make on any future runs, to get better alignment for mounting on the factory trim and channel. The design won't change, but I need to account for a slight offset owing to how this one has to be fastened compared to the one I made for Space Shuttle (the more open design on PinBot makes a more fragile stencil which needs to be anchored at the bottom, on the lower trim rail.... whereas Space Shuttle's was able to rest above the top of that rail).

If you are interested in one of these for your machine, please PM me. Several people have asked me to rerun the Space Shuttle panels and I hope to do that soon, so if anyone is interested in PinBot they will have to be run at the same time.

I expect the final pricing to be ~$150, which will include shipping. It will probably take at least 10 firm commitments of each design to get the quantity break needed. I'm betting I already have that many Shuttle orders, but so far the interest in PinBot appears much lower, which honestly surprises me.

At any rate, I won't be asking for deposit money from anyone until / unless this works out, and I'm ready to place an order and manage the turnaround. Probably not for a few more weeks since I have a few other irons to tend first. So anyway... if you want one, let me know, and we'll see what happens.

Greetings,

I finally have some of the PinBot stainless speaker panels I designed back in Feb/March, available!

I think I have PM'd everyone who expressed interest at that time. If you were expressed interest and did NOT receive a PM from me today, please get in touch.

Supply is VERY LIMITED so if/as slots become available, I will work my way down the list. Feel free to reach out if you are only just now hearing about these and might be interested, but as I said... supply is very limited!

PBPans (resized).jpg

PBpanStock (resized).jpg

PBpanColor (resized).jpg

I basically came up with my own concept art, using clues dropped by Python (PinBot's Taxi cameo, primarily) to figure out what PinBot's "base" might have looked like, to fill the blank space in the panel (like I did with my Shuttle panel on the left). Going a step further, I slipped some colored paper behind the W's to keep that motif going as well.

Right now there is one panel available. I'm waiting on confirmation on another, if that falls through there will be a second available.