I can scan that for you, sent me your Email. Have you checked the +5, +12 and -12 volts. The board wont work without all three voltages.

You have an O scope for testing? Check for an audio signal at C-3.

No. Sorry.

That's a fair excellent point and to be honest, that's what I was thinking long before I posted. But just to solve the "chicken or egg?" problem I wanted to be sure the wiring was correct. I'd already fixed switches that were assembled wrong, other bulbs that had both leads soldered to the same tab, and other hacks so hopefully you understand where I was suspicious and ultimately confused!

Now with that being said, back to suspecting the MPU board: The left visor lights are locked on, BUT the transistor does not get warm or fry in the way we're used to with coils. Is that because the lamps are a lower load, or is there some other failure mode to cause this?

And as for the right visors being locked on, but still flashing (like a combo brake light and turn signal on a car)... what gives there? How could they be locked on AND flash?

So yeah, that's why I thought maybe the wiring was suspect. Thanks for clarifying.

I do have a probe but I'm unsure of where to start here.

When I rebuilt the solenoid section for the left visor, I was unaware that U45 was also bad. Could that bad 7402 have nuked the downstream transistors again?

Most problems that I find on a new to me pin are owner induced, so I am always very suspicious of any old repairs.

Do you know if the transistor (Q-30) is shorted or if there is a short in the wire going back to the CPU. Remove 1J11 from the CPU and turn on the power, does the left visor come on now?

Yes this could have done damage if a coil locked on. In the future you may want to remove the fuses for the solenoids until you correct your problems on the CPU.

My mistake 1J11 is for the #89 bulbs, 1J19 is for the #1251 bulbs.

Had the same problem with a bad light socket blowing Q9.

Well since Grumpy vetted the visor wiring for me above that was just what I needed to know, to turn my attention back the MPU (I mean, what were the odds both sides would be buggered up to start, so no sense poking the boards if wiring could fry them again).

So I pulled the board and metered the components. Sure enough, the tip122 at Q71 (left visor) was shorted internally, with continuity across all three poles. Weird - I've never seen that before on a transistor that wasn't visibly shot, but I guess that explains how it "worked" enough to light the bulbs without getting hot. Its predriver passed the quick-and-dirty diode test, and all the other special solenoids were working properly, so I replaced Q71 again.

For the right visor, Q9 (tip122) and Q5 (2n4401) tested faulty. Can't remember the location ID, but the 7408 directly upstream from those tested OK on board. So I replaced Q9 and Q5.

Put the board back in and powered up the game... when the visor stayed dark I held bated breath in hopes I hadn't simply immediately blown the new parts (or something else). Went into coil test and... success! Put the game in attract mode and... success! And it's late so I didn't start a game, but for now I'm calling that a win.

Thanks to all who chimed in as I got this thing running again. This refugee (from a Cincinnati radio station) is the first time I've really played PinBot and it's a LOT more fun than I expected... looking forward to adding it to the lineup!

For Reference, Here is the ink I sent to FiatRUs, its a 600DPI scan. https://ia601405.us.archive.org/32/items/PinBotInstructionManualSchematics600dpi/PinBot%20Instruction%20Manual%20&%20Schematics%20600%20dpi%20scan.pdf

Nice, very generous of you. Thanks buddy!

OK so more in the flasher saga. I played some games this morning before work. After several minutes, the right side locked on again... with the same symptom that it's on, but can still flash brighter when it's supposed to.

After work I turned the game on and after a few seconds of being dark, the right side sorft of flickered back on again.

So I removed the board for more investigation. Transistor tested fine, as does the predriver. The connection point to the resistor network was out of spec, though... so I removed the tip122 to get a clean test. When I did this, the resistor network was fine. As were the other resistors. I put the same tip122 back in.

When I powered the game on, the right side was OK for a few minutes... then locked on again.

So I dug out the probe. According to the schematic, the 6821 PIA at U10 runs this section. Pin 11 is the one for this solenoid. When I put the game into coil test, pin 11 stays low until the right visor test... then it blinks high as it should. So my U10 6821 PIA is good.

Next in the chain is a 7408 at U18, pins 11, 12, and 13. 13 is blanking input, 12 is input from the PIA, and 11 is the output. Well, PIN 12 reads high all the time... but if I'm understanding correctly, this should only be high when U10's pin11 goes high. Is that correct? If so, I think I found my problem...

...(except I don't understand why it would have "reset" after I removed the components temporarily)??

Could be either chip acting up, But I would change U-18 as its easier and cheaper. Did you check for continuity from U18 to the PIA chip with the power off to make sure that U-18 pin 12 is not just floating? A fracture could be opening up when the board warms up.

I'm looking into my mini play field issue.

Right now it's bowed from top to bottom. I believe that the screws/post in place might be incorrect. Can people upload a nice top view of their play field and any close ups of the post/screws form the side? I think I'm going to have to source a bunch of new hardware.

Thanks!

its not mine, its one I found when looking for a better scan.

So the saga continues....

I changed U18 tonight, and saw no change. Pin 12 remains high at all times. When turning the machine on after a long time cold, the right visor "flickers" gradually until it locks on. Which is consistent with a warm-up fracture theory, but it seems to happen quickly.

But here's a weirder part. For gits and shiggles I removed U18 (socketed now) and turned the machine on.... the problem remains! So it must not be U18 after all...

...I would think that means a hard-fault to a ground somewhere else, but everything physical looks clean. Logically it's a haystack.

So here's the weirdest part: there's no continuity from the PIA U10 Pin 11, to U18 pin 12. Remember, I confirmed the proper behavior of U10 by probing pin 11 when the coil test flashes the visor, and that pin blipped as expected.

But instead of power-off continuity from U18 Pin 12 to U10 pin 11... it's going to U10 Pin12...!?

Just when I think I'm understanding this stuff....

With the chip removed solenoid 9,10,11 and 12 locked on because of the pull up resistors.

I just checked a couple of system 11a boards I'm working on and it goes from U10 pin 11 to U18 pin12. This is a problem.

This is good but if it isn't getting to U-18 pin 12 your input will float causing the output to go high.

OK. This is beginning to drive me crazy. Crazy enough that part of my confusion above was because (and I really hate to admit this ) looking at U18 pin 11... happens to be in the middle right... so counting toward pin 12, I went left (like the row above) instead of right. Arrgh! I've tested these before, I know the pin numbers go on around counter-clockwise... I don't know HOW or WHEN I slipped into this stupid mistake but... sigh.

At least the good news is I have trace continuity where I should.

So I replaced U18 and installed a socket. Did the same thing for U10. Changed the tip122 at Q9 for a more robust tip102 (my board is not liking changing that transistor over and over, next time I'm going to have to run a jumper).

And the problem still remains. With a new flavor: it seems that any random circuit associated with U18 will act up. If all is well and I leave the game on long enough - and it took an hour once - the right visor will lock (guess the tip102 bought some extra time).

Other times I'd turn it on and the right visor would be fine but the backboard eyeballs will flicker.

After inspecting and checking my work per each of these... visor bulbs off, eyeballs off... but now the favorite symptom is for the playfield GI to flicker at random.

The only thing in common with these problem circuits is: U18! But I've swapped it a few times for brand-new 74LS08's and used 7408's with no change. I've also tried multiple PIA's too. I've checked the resistor networks in that section, and they test OK.

So that might point to me. So I toned all the relevant traces, checked my sockets, looked for shorts and fractures, etc. and I can't find anything obvious or hidden... of course that doesn't mean I'm not missing something....

And here's the real kicker. While the GI is flickering, if I probe U10 pin 13 (which runs the GI), it flickers in unison. What would make the PIA itself act weird like that? Or is it succumbing to some sort of back-emf from a problem downstream? I guess what I'm asking is, would the PIA signal be the cause or effect here?

PB_SolPIA (resized).png
PB_SolSchem (resized).jpg
PB_troublebdLabel (resized).jpg

No big, shit happens.

This sounds very very familiar as I bought a box of boards to repair for spares and the CPU had no prior work done but had a shorted Q-9. Upon powering it up on my bench I noticed that the blanking led was a little slow in lighting. When I checked the blanking voltage it was low so I cut pin 14 of U-18 which fixed the blanking voltage. I assumed that U-18 went bad and locked on Q-9 and burned up something on the play field. So I changed U-18, Q-5 and Q-9 and thought this was going to be an easy fix. When I powered it back up notice something strange, random transistors would turn on and then off. Sometimes they would be on for ten minutes and then turn off for a hour. So U-10 PIA did not have a socket so I cut it off the board. Now I haven't have any time to finish this board as I only do this kind of stuff in the winter.
It was next on my list. Since you tried different PIA chips with no luck you may try swapping the 6802 processor chips.

Thanks Grumpy...!

Yeah, your problem board sounds eerily similar to what this one is becoming - almost near identical. The part I feel worst about is that it was reliably contained to just the Q9 circuit until I replaced U18 / U10... then it seemed to spread. FWIW, it spread when I replaced U18 first... which led me to think "Ahha, if U18 is good now I've exposed a bad PIA at U10". Sigh, not so fast. I can mix and match with no apparent correlation or resolution.

I only ever seem to get "one problem at a time", not all of them... so it's not a crash-consistent state pointing to something I did to component X or trace Y as far as I can tell. And I fixed all the special solenoid issues too so again, I hope my workmanship is proven. Seems I have a knack for finding the problems that are never quite as simple as they seem.

If you get beck to it (winter is coming, yay! haha) I'd love to know what you find out.

But you mention the blanking circuit being slow: I noticed that the CPU 5V led turns on instantly, but the blanking LED follows a second or two later. Is this normal? Seemed like a reasonable bootup time to me, so how slow is "slow"? I've not compared it to my other Sys11 games.

Normally a little less than a second. If yours seems slow do voltage check of the blanking. Should be 4.85 and up. I'm hoping to get back to my problem this weekend. I am still hoping for a simple bad PIA.

I'm looking for a new vortex ramp. Anyone have experience with any particular NOS or aftermarket options?

Well a box of parts from Marco showed up so I shelved my MPU troubleshooting and went about finishing the playfield work.

Here's Mr. Bot as I found him:

PinBot_B4_Fade (resized).jpg

Yeesh... he could have moonlighted as a Necro-bot, because the fading was horrible. This thing must have been in the window of a reception area. Basically everything red was ashen gray, and even the blues took a beating.

Mechanically the game was surprisingly sound and *wanted* to work. Visor mechs were solid. Flashers were all AWOL and no topper (I found the topper harness in the cabinet under the head).

But the game had been played to DEATH. See how blackened the mini-pf is? And note the missing post left of the visor: the ballguide behind had taken a beating which I'll show later.

Fortunately a timely ebay listing yielded some cheap serviceable used plastics including the visor face, so I at least got a quick dose of color back in:

Pinbot_Mid_Plastic (resized).jpg

As it happens, the playfield is not really a good restoration candidate. It's solid enough, flat, and plays well, but there's enough subtle planking and flaking beneath factory mylar to make removing the mylar an absolute no-go proposition.

But mylar's not the end of the world. Realizing that, I decided to restore the red in the pf by repainting it and then adding thin mylar in the touched up areas. A lot of those areas (lock lanes, outlanes, etc) lacked mylar in the first place, so mylaring them would make a consistent surface.

PinBite (resized).jpg

So yeah: there's that ball guide behind the missing post. I added a beefier 8-32 post so hopefully that will last a while.

And here's where I am now:

Pinbot_After (resized).jpg

I filled all the red areas back in, but left the faded planet orbits since those are kind of unique and interesting. Oh, and added one custom touch that seems painfully obvious, yet I've not seen anywhere.

I also fitted the backbox with a blend of cool led, warm led, and filament bulbs... I think the contrast and highlights look good:

Pinbot_Backbox (resized).jpg

Really enjoy playing this a lot more than I expected. The music is still fantastic too. After growing up with the NES version, having the real thing is especially neat

I've been working on cleaning up my Pinbot. I was wondering about the GI under the visor area. On the left there are 2 GI bulbs that emit light onto the left side on the visor so the left side is illuminated when the visor is open. There is no GI on the right side so that side looks noticeably darker. Am i missing some part that should block the GI light into the left side? or is this how it should be?
DSC_0136 (resized).JPG

Also, the post rubber in front of the 5 bank of round targets, is conical, is that the correct rubber? and the plastic spacer does it go on top of the rubber or on the bottom?
DSC_0130 (resized).JPG

Any ideas on how I can improve exit ramp and enter ramp switch response? They rarely register in game play.

Yes, correct tapered yellow rubber and yes, plastic spacer goes above it. The rubber part number at Marco is #38-6579, looks like you could use a new one.

That looks right. Here are a couple of pics I found on the web.

pinbot_eyes_complete (resized).jpg

pinbot_ramp_assembly_metal_on (resized).jpg

Do you have any measurements for the decals? I'm trying to get some printed and they need some measurements to start from.

thanks, I might have to clean up the old one until I place my next order. No reasonable way to order 1 post rubber for delivery to New Zealand.

Yeh, I thought it might just be the way it is. Just seems funny that the GI illuminates the left and the right is much darker. Probably made worse with one of the flashers under there not working. I'll fix that once my order from Pinball Life arrives.

The right is darker because the vortex ramp covers everything there, but I agree it does look off-balance with the bleed illuminating the left. I might make a light block out of some spare black plastic I had lying around and see how that looks.

Speaking of looks:

The foam behind the chest targets had disintegrated, so I replaced it with strips of standard weatherstripping. The gray kind. And in a moment of laziness, I just used continuous strips instead of target-specific pieces... but I have to say, it actually looks pretty cool and matches the playfield! In fact, I probably need to add a third strip at the bottom just to complete the effect now.

TargetGrayback (resized).jpg

Interesting (and ugly) addition to Pinbot. I guess the previous owner was having ball hang ups here.
Hopefully it will come off without damaging the plastic.

DSC_0137 (resized).JPG

True dat.

What's the story on the right red shoulder ramp?
-mof

It's always bugged me that on the backbox, and in all the other places the character of PinBot himself shows up (promo plastics, art sketches, Taxi pf, NES version, etc) that his arm from shoulder to fingertip is completely red... yet Williams cheaped out and used a one-piece blue ramp into the shoulder (looking at the design and flow of that shot, a two-piece ramp would have been entirely do-able).

I've also been surprised that folks have gone through the trouble and expense of splitting the score displays into blue / red... which is awesome in itself... but just makes the disparity in the shoulder look even more jarring IMHO.

So I experimented with painting the ramp. I cleaned it up well, removed the switches, masked off the blue half, and used Krylon Fusion Cherry Red on the right half. The visor top conveniently hides the transition.

The finish was beautiful and plasticine! My biggest concern was with how well the paint would wear under the ball. So for that, I cut some mylar strips for the path and inside walls. Can't really tell they are there, and we all know that the paint beneath will be well protected and stay in place even if it ever does flake... which I honestly don't see happening given the ball's relatively calm path through that area.

At any rate, the shot flows every bit as well as well as it did before, and now the game looks as it *should* (IMO).

Agree. Looks great
Mof

That's a brilliant idea and it turned out great!

Here's what the red ramp looked like after painting:

20161210_164513 (resized).jpg

Not sure what the puddly-looking blob by the flasher dome hole is, but it didn't dry that way, it's as smooth as it should be. All in all it's a pretty easy mod. The trickiest and most time consuming part is cutting the mylar strips, but even then it's well worth the effort IMO.

~~~~~~~~~

And hopefully not jinxing myself by finally posting about it, especially for GRUMPY : for the past 4 days, my MPU "U18" issues detailed above have not reappeared... across dozens of games and a few cumulative hours.

I did measure the blanking voltage and while it's 4.97 at the source, it's only 3.68 at U18. So it appears there is some resistive loss occurring in the circuit I may need to be mindful of. But while my "U18 solenoid" woes were ongoing, new "IRQ Failure" messages, attract lockups, and other worrisome behavior began creeping in. Which pointed further to your CPU suggestion... but I swapped CPU chips with no success.

Thus getting nowhere but discouraged I went into the playfield work for a diversion. Which led me to tidy up connections overall. To that point I hadn't yet checked the connections on all the score displays (they were working, right?) but lo and behold... the ribbon cable to the master display was just a bit loose.

Seems stupid but after reseating that cable fully: all the problems went away, and, so far, have stayed away. As to why those symptoms crept in gradually, I must have dislodged it one of the times I'd moved it around to work on the MPU. Or maybe it worked loosed every time I opened the panel, because it's an aftermarket LED replacement from 2003 with a bunch of slack that's easily snagged.

So I'll take it. And wish if only everything were so simple...!

Well, I like it a lot and going to do this to mine when I get it going. I think it would look good with a red flasher cover also instead of orange.

This is real low, but I'm a fix what's broke kind of person. So when it acts up again you have a starting point at least.

Probably! But don't forget to change the other side to blue then

Yessir... and if it ain't broke (yet), don't fix it There's pinball to be played!

That color split ramp looks sweet!
I've been in touch with pinsider Freeplay, who tells me that he's getting a new machine up and running, and that when he does, PinBot and Space Shuttle ramps are his first projects. Says he's looking at using a translucent turquoise , and when I asked him about translucent blue/red, he said that was "very possible." That would be pretty much the most pimpin' update to Pinbot since the invention of the lighted star post. Super psyched for it!

Theoretically, it shouldn't be that hard to dye one side red and the other side blue. Especially since the demarcation line is covered. Where I work we sell aluminum air/water manifolds that are anodized blue/red. same basic idea. I personally think if I did it though, I would put the blue dome covers on the red side and the red on the blue side.

Funny, I had the thought of suggesting it to Freeplay as I was painting mine, wondering if he could design a two-piece set. Never occurred to me that both ends of a single unit could be dyed differently. But nice to hear he's already wise to the idea! Maybe I'll bug him anyway. I'd like to get his transparent ramp for Space Station someday, but my repaired black one is still holding up great.

I have no idea how to get a decent picture of a backglass. But I tried to do some comparing between my old translite and the CPR backglass... What's gray on my translite (top pic) is blue on the backglass (bottom pic). What's red on my translite is more orange on the backglass. There's little difference between red and orange on the backglass. What's red looks orange. What's orange looks orange/yellow. The mirroring is neat, but there's not much of it. The backglass might be a consideration for someone with a translite in poor condition. My translite was decent. If I had to buy the backglass again... well... I might not.

backglass-01 (resized).jpg

backglass-02 (resized).jpg

Big side-by-side comparison...

backglass-03 (resized).jpg

I totally agree. I got one too. I am really picky about color. To me, it's the lightness of the blue and an overall lack of rich color saturation, particularly in the blues and reds that bugs me. For the money, I want to love it and I don't. I'm not letting go of my original translite anytime soon as it was in very good condition. Maybe I'll let it go if the new backglass grows on me. I do like it that it's an actual glass. Translites always look kinda cheap. I also like that pinbot now has a mirrored glass like the neighboring space shuttle and comet.