posts are cheap enough, that if it takes more that a min or so to get nice, i would just replace. I put led's in the machine i did. loved it. They are bright, but its a personal preference thing.

Where did you get them? Were they sold as a kit or did you put it together yourself?

Boltdepot.com

Search topics with hardware in the title and there are a few threads. This thread
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hardwareparts-to-have-on-hand-for-1st-time-playfield-restoreswap#post-2591220
Has a partial list to get you started.

After a few months of moving hell, I'm finally returning to a project PinBot I picked up just before, uh, the hell of moving. There were several prior hacks and poor repairs, and I've untangled a few... but there's a few more that would be easier if I knew exactly how the game should behave.

Anyway to get to the point, can someone explain how the "left visor" and "right visor" bulbs are supposed to work? As in when they are on, and when they are off, and such?

It looks like there are three sockets for each side but I don't yet know if they are controlled independently or what. And as it happens none of them were populated - just one clue among several that a PO had major issues with the flasher circuits. Further complicating my troubleshooting, most of the resistor boards need work as the resistors fell off. I also suspect an issue in the MPU special solenoids section: the transistor (Q71) for that part is *completely* blown out (and the triggering 7402 at U45 might be bad also since its associated pops and sling don't work correctly either).

But the right visor lock, when I put a bulb in, is on all of the time. Is that correct? The term "GI" confuses me here since I'm used to GI staying on all the time... but then why is it in the solenoid section, and why is the left on "special"? And if that right visor lock socket wants to be on, which other sockets should be on with it?

Once the tagets,are hit the visor opens and all number 89 28v flashers start flashing.
I think 2 under playfeild and 4 on playfeild..

Thanks. That would make sense. And I think you're right in that technically 4 of the bulbs fit into holes in the playfield, but two stay belw the pf (under the lock saucers).

But mine are labeled to be 1251 bulbs, not 89. I think my manual says this as well. Was a change made at some point?

And just to clarify the lamp behavior: are they lit solid before the visor opens, and just begin to flash at that point? Or do they stay dark until it opens and should only ever flash, not remain solid lit? And do both eyes (sides) work in unison, or can they work independently?

To reiterate what been said a hundred times before: do not use #89 in there, they will melt your scoop plastic and burn in no time. They need to be #1251 (28v).

Here is a video I took of the visor behavior.

https://flic.kr/p/PtwYHy

Does anyone know if they make decals for the spacestation right above the shoot again insert? Mine has some bad touch up done to the white areas.

Sorry .. yes,1251 ... the 89s will burn I Stanly.. my bad..

Instantly .. sorry and 8 used 1251 led 28v from cointaker ... they look great...

Or you can go to page 24 in this thread and read my info on how to easily rewire the sockets so you can use 89 bulbs or LED's, instead of 1251's. The ability to use red & blue 89 LED flashers under the visor really makes the game pop!!

I noticed there are 4 bulbs under the visor, 2 for the kicks and 2 that pop up towards the back. Are they all 1251? I just put blue and red 89 leds in the ones that pop up and they seem to work. Will i create any harm?

Wow that was an awesome and perfect help. Beers to you for taking the time... thank you!

They will work for a while, but they will run crazy bright and hot, and then blow eventually... And the possibility of fire exists when electronics overheat, and LED's are electronics. Rewire the 3 sockets on each side in series, problem solved.

No worries. Happy to help.

I removed the ground wire from the resistor boards, then went LED's in all the 89's. The 1251's are still there, until I order the Cointaker LED's. The only 1251's I believe, are the "eyes" in the Back Box, and the 6 associated with the Visor. Mine had a ton of stickers saying 28V in the wrong places.

Just trying to confirm if this is where all the 1251s are at. Two under the visor for the left right eject holes, two on the backbox in the middle for eyes and 4 above the playfield c,d,e and f? That would make all the rest 89's? I was trying to get away with not having to wire anything but using the Cointaker 1251 bulbs

Yup.

I debugged enough to finally play my first game tonight! With caveats and a cry for help that I'll get to in a minute. From where I came from with its acquired state (hacked flashers, a fried transistor, shorted pop switch (leafs assembled next to each other!), locking coils at start, switch terminals shorted to nearby brackets, etc etc etc), I feel mighty accomplished for getting it to pass all the tests and almost play a full game!

Yeah, so here's where the "almost" comes in. I had to work on the Special Soleniod section because all four coils associated to U45 were acting up: the left sling and left pop would lock on, the left visor flasher was fried, and the bottom pop would not work at all. There were several issues going on but the short of it for here is, for the left visor flasher (Q71) I had to replace the TIP122, 4401, and 5W resistor. I also replaced U45 with a new 74LS02.

Now there's no more issues at power on or attract, and I can start and play a game. But after about two minutes, the special solenoids act up again. First time this happened, the left sling began acting erratic by pulsing more steadily until it locked on its own. I powered down before any real damage was done. After a couple minutes I turned it on again and all was fine. I started a new game to troubleshoot and again after a couple minutes, this time the bottom pop exhibited the same behavior.

Each time, only the specific associated transistor was hot. But what gets me is why the different ones each time, and after a couple minutes? Nothing else on the board looks or smells suspect.

Could this be a mere symptom of needing to replace those other TIP122s outright, or something else (the 7402, now 74LS02, at U45) randomizing the symptom upstream? I'd rather not shotgun everything yet, but I'm not sure where to look first...

Transistors don't lock on then work fine, once they short they stay shorted. I am working on something similar to your problem, mine will randomly lock on transistors Q-6,7,8,9,14,15,16 and Q-17 one at a time in attract mode. I have checked everything and I am going to replace PIA U10. I cut it off and the transistors stopped locking on, but have not installed a new chip as of yet. Never enough time for everything.

That's my understanding, which is why I found the behavior puzzling.

But I did some reading on my IC at U45 hunch and it turns out, the 74LS series is probably not a good sub in this application. Unfortunately it was all I had for a 74()02. The LS series draws low power and runs at high speed... sounds great right.... but it only supports a lower max current draw... oops, the special solenoids would especially be more than it likes!

So now speculating, that might explain why things get wonky after a short time in play... AND why the fault is not a hard-lock state... AND why it manifests on a random circuit (maybe the one most in use as it happens?). I'm catching the problem before the IC goes totally poof, but I'll have to get a standard 7402 and see if that solves the issue.

If it doesn't, well things will certainly be more interesting then won't they?!

You will have to find NOS as these aren't being made any more. You can try a 74HCT02.

I want to replace the original flippers in my Pinbot and thought about going to the "fliptronic" mechanism.

Has anyone done this? Thoughts? Should I just do a regular rebuild kit?

Here are the preliminary parts I've put together:

Flipper kit: http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=172
With the SFL 19/400 - 30/750 coil, A-12111 Coil Stop and the 03-7811 Normally Closed EOS switch.

Flipper bushings http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=270

Am I missing anything?

IMG_2387 (resized).JPG

I'm currently going through this process on mine. What am doing is replacing the arm link (plunger), flipper bushing, coil stop and adding a custom made bracket to be able to use/attach a newer style return spring.

I am keeping my coil as they are still working but replacing the EOS switches since they get the most abuse. The change lane switches get cleaned and re-used.

So I get the feel of new style flippers.

I'll post very soon in my restoration thread and upload some pictures of the whole thing

I've upgraded 2/3/4 flippers on 18 or so 1980's Williams machines.

I always re-use the old coils and lane switches. Everything else is new. In retrospect, I would have likely kept all the old brackets, and just screwed the springs into the playfields to save a little $ and make "shorting" very unlikely. On the plus side, I really like the new bracket look.

-mof

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinbot-restoration-underway/page/2#post-3471166

Picture 5-6-7. In the last picture, you can see the bracket I'm talking about at the bottom left corner.

Thanks. I ordered both from GPE today and hope to have them soon. Meanwhile, I remembered I had a roached Sys6 driver board with a couple 7402's on it, so I harvested those and ran some tests tonight. The results were intriguing! Since this could probably apply to other Sys11 games as well, I spun off a new thread earlier, and my updates are there:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sys11-special-solenoids-7402-short-bus-wonkiness

Alright Pinbot peeps.

I found a guy who will help with the printing of a playfield, but I do not have any good art.

Does anyone have a playfield image that will fit the bill??

So I got the new vortex ramp and I noticed a problem.

The still fall is too high(about 1/8") and does not allow the ball to travel up easily. You can hear it hit pretty hard.

Does anyone have experience getting this to sit properly? I've tried bending it but can only get the edge to cooperate.

cb45fcf36d84d695dea9b57a8a427a04e0648370 (resized).jpg

22a7ec95062109179fee077fe3e8adb270378a7b (resized).jpg

Get out a grinder cause those repro ramps suck!

Umm, that flap is supposed to be like that! there is a recess in the PF that the plastic under it sits into and makes the flap sit flat on the PF! You may have just ruined your flap dude... If you cant get it perfectly flat again, when you install it, you'll have a nice speed bump that'll screw your skillshot.

What I did on mine, was grind out as much as I could on the bottom parts to get it close, then I put a small piece of mylar over the flap and onto the pf to smooth it out as best as I could.

My experience with the vortex documented here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinbot-restoration-underway/page/2#post-3430763

Don't forget the swearing. That's a big part of the process.

That's funny

Is the tumbler worth the investment? By that, I mean does it do something that you can't do with your own hands and time?

I'm only cleaning and restore Pinbot at this time. My Demolition Man is in pretty good shape.

RCA1 got a chance to play and help me with the one I did, he KNOWS there was a lot of swearing...

I feel I got my money's worth on that single restoration. It's like magic. You don't want to polish every little pin and washers... you could but you don't want to.

Before:
https://images.pinside.com/3/a6/3a6359dd0cf44011a633eb2493aaea13fe028879/resized/large/3a6359dd0cf44011a633eb2493aaea13fe028879.jpg

After:
https://images.pinside.com/4/ea/4ead5b284317cc30615fb6a7bbe665d1b5b98955/resized/large/4ead5b284317cc30615fb6a7bbe665d1b5b98955.jpg

Worth mention that I clean and de-grease the parts before: Throw everything in a container, spray purple power, shake, fill with water, stir, rinse and dry before putting in the tumbler. Otherwise, you'll get your media freaking dirty in no time.

The grime, the grime... oh my god the grime... I think someone removed mylar in the whole section around the top pop (WHHYYYY?!?!?!) but left the adhesive and it turned to caulk! Despite this I've made good progress on my proj-bot and while I don't think it's a good candidate for a full resto (playfield has too many different random issues) it's cleaning up decently. I debugged the hacks and other problem areas and the game now plays - quite smoothly in fact! Can't wait to see how it plays once I get a few parts in.

Only major problem left seems to be the flashers: nothing operated by a resistor board seems to be working. The inserts stay dark while the visor ones stay on. But I'm still waiting on new resistors, guess Ed at GPE got slammed after the break.

Anyway, a favor to ask since I'm sure some of you have upgraded your plastics with new CPR sets. Would anyone have some serviceable spares of that large blue plastic in the back left corner? Or the multicolor one behind the round chest targets? On mine, the blue one is missing a broken piece near the visor, while the multicolor one is badly faded. If it helps, I have a couple spares of my own to trade: keychains and lane covers primarily.

As I said before, this game probably won't get the full showpiece resto treatment, but it affordable used pieces that are better than what I've got are out there, I wouldn't mind to do what I can for the old bot.

Bent it back flat and it's about 2-3 times higher than the original ramp; Given that, I don't be it's supposed to be like that.

There is a new report ramp on ebay, but I'm hesitant. I'd like to get this one fixed, but I'm also concerned about breaking it.

Great feedback. What tumbler did you end up getting?

Install the ramp with the screws in place and everything, and post a closeup pic or 2 of the flap and how its positioned, we can go from there.

The cheap one from amazon.

Frankford Arsenal Quick-n-Ez Case Tumbler

I may be in a minority here, but I personally don't know that it's a significant difference really. I have rebuilt all flippers in my collection - F-14, Sorcerer, Diner, PinBot - and have Fliptronic spings on two of them and old style coil springs on the other two. I challenge anybody to tell me which are which. If you really want the later style spring, it's very easy to do provided you have the correct parts - base assembly and plunger assemblies need that extra tab for mounting the spring. The tricky part is, Williams subtly changed coil stop size and the plunger length over the years. (Fliptronic era flippers don't cradle as high - kinda cool in that you can do rollover passes more easily, but in my experience they make post passes way harder to pull off) When I first rebuilt my Diner flippers, I didn't realize I had the Fliptronic era plungers but a sys11 coil stop, and the linkage was bottoming out against the coil entrance (which would eventually break the linkage) rather than the plunger striking the coil stop. All this is a long winded way of saying that you definitely want to buy the full kits; personally, I just stick with what was stock in the game (though there's a case to be made for updating to later era coils to elimiate sparking across the EOS switches). That way you know you're using the right parts, and the action of the game (based on flipper travel) is the same as on the original run. (I personally prefer the longer throw on sys11)

I agree, freshly rebuilt flippers plays very nice no matter what style they are. Might as well go with newer style spring my thinking is. I use shorter 12111 coil stop for longer travel, that is it.

Bump on spare plastics from anyone? Willing pay reasonable amount for decent used ones, or I can trade. Looking for the big blue one (or even just the "finger" next to the visor), the red one over the round chest targets, and the clear shuttle arc over the vortex.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, I need some help to figure out how the large visor bulb sockets should be wired. Someone did a major hack job on these because nothing makes sense, and I can't find a clear reference. Even the workmanship doesn't betray what's factory and what's later.

When I got the machine NO bulbs were present, and the Left Visor solenoid section was completely fried. I repaired the solenoid section and installed bulbs. Now, all the bulbs stay constantly lit.

But it gets stranger than that. The left side is constantly on, but the transistor does not get warm, and I can never tell that it is trying to flash. The right side is constantly on, but its intensity does vary when it should be flashing.

OK, so what lurks below the playfield? Here's the left visor:

LeftVisorProblembulbs (resized).jpg

This side is fully lit all the time. It does not attempt to flash. Looking at the wiring, we see the harness come in (via green and red wires) to feed the bulb closest to it. That bulb connects to the lock bulb. Then the lock bulb connects to the last bulb. Essentially a series-parallel setup.

This is completely different from the right side:

RightVisorProblemBulbs (resized).jpg

This side stays lit but does flash. Are here we see as before, the harness feeds into the first bulb.... but from there, it goes directly to both the lock bulb and the last bulb. More of a parallel-only setup. Now it looks like this might have been done to help route wire around the lock mech... but in order to maintain consistent voltage and performance, shouldn't both sides match?

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE because speaking of things that don't match, it gets better! Now I know that for AC bulbs polarity doesn't matter, but I am used to the convention that "base (positive) tabs" on sockets all share the same line, while the "barrel (ground) tabs" share another. Because that's critically important with controlled lamps like these.

So now look at the left visor again: the gray line connects Bulb 1 (near harness) base tab, connects to lock bulb's barrel, connects to bulb 3's barrel.

but on the right visor: the gray line connects Bulb 1 (near harness) base tab, to lock bulb's barrel, connects to bulb 3's *base*!

ARRRGH nothing is sensible, or consistent, or even wrong in the same way...!

So this poor ol' PinBot beseeches thee: can someone post clear photos of their stock wiring so I can compare? Thank you!

Electrically they are the same. Both sets are wired in parallel as they should be. Positive and negative connections don't come into play because these bulbs are not in a matrix with diodes. Now just because you rebuilt the transistor portion of CPU doesn't mean you have fixed your problem. You should have a logic probe to test this further.

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1796/Williams_1986_Pin_bot_Manual.pdf