How did the standard cash model work out for Skit-B buyers? J-Pop? ???
I think the financing is a great option.
I like to hang on to as much cash as possible in case times turn bad. For those that can handle an additional small payment and keep the the cash in the coffers this is great.
At least these high end pins aren't really depreciative assests like cars and boats. Most retain original value as long as you do your part and take care of them.
Nice to have options!
Quoted from Boondocker:If I was a distributer, I would be scared to post anything on Pinside, all they do is get flamed. Even when JJ at GEX first came on here, his posts were replied to with extreme harshness and he is a great resource. I personally don't mind a dealer coming on here and posting offers and wish more did, it seems to be in the buyers best interest.
I totally agree. It is the nature of being a retail distributor though, it takes awhile to build street credibility and be viewed as a great resource by the community.
The OP in this thread does a lot of great stuff for pinball and gives back to the community in many ways. I feel his financing program is a good thing for many.
To mean, this is essentially the same concept as when you see furniture stores offer financing deals as part of their big sales. A 3rd party company handles the financing, and the store ships as soon it's all approved.
And just like that, the finance company sets the rates and terms. Could be great, could be worse than something you could get on your own from a bank. It's really up to you to look at the details and see if the offer is good.
If anything, I think it's nice that this option is even available. Gives pinheads another way of being able to get behind the wheel of a Mustang.
There will be some out there who would frown on the idea of going into debt for a pinball, but is it any worse than taking on debt to get a big ass couch or a huge TV. At least with pinball machines, you can sell them and get a good % of your money back. 5 year old couches and TVs aren't worth much.
Quoted from Tigger64:There will be some out there who would frown on the idea of going into debt for a pinball, but is it any worse than taking on debt to get a big ass couch or a huge TV. At least with pinball machines, you can sell them and get a good % of your money back. 5 year old couches and TVs aren't worth much.
True.....I buy what I can fit in the house through the years, mostly all on credit.
I use an equity line, currently at 2.25%, plus I get the mortgage interest write off on this.
Currently 1.99% for 12 months at Regions Bank $0 out of pocket to open)
If I buy well, I can usually lose a bit, break even, or make a bit.
Even a $500 hit on a NIB after a year, is less then $50 a month to enjoy a brand new game for a whole year!
One evening at the movies!
Offering financing by the Op, is generous to share in many ways.....Greatly appreciate bringing its opportunity for everyone to know and decide for themselves whats best.
Quoted from Tigger64:At least with pinball machines, you can sell them and get a good % of your money back. 5 year old couches and TVs aren't worth much.
That's a really bad assumption to make about any collectible item.
If you wanna move some pinball machines, offer Apple Pay in-store (assuming you have an "in-store") before the end of the year.
New Discover it® accounts opened before year-end earn a ridiculous 22% cashback on purchases made with the card via Apple Pay in-store through the end of the year.
(For the mathematically disinclined: that turns an $8,000 [whatever] into a $6,240 [whatever].)
Quoted from jadziedzic:That's a really bad assumption to make about any collectible item.
I agree ... I don't think anyone should buy a pinball machine thinking they will make money on it; they are an amusement device and shouldn't be treated as an investment vehicle.
But what I was trying to say there is that people take loans on things like couches that have no long-term value at all, and despite that, it's a widely accepted practice.
Quoted from PinballSTAR:Sorry, we are not a Stern distributor, so no.
Understood, but I think the question is if you offer Apple Pay in store so those interested in a JJP or MMR ,etc could take advantage of this offer?
I bought a 75th RR from Joe last night and while I didn't use this particular method of financing, I did put a large chunk of it on my Amex which has a pretty low interest rate. Why did I do that when I'm totally against credit cards after digging myself out of a hole I made in college?
Well, I've wanted a WoZ since I first got into the hobby a year ago. I just bought a house and am finishing my basement (which is freakin' expensive). WoZ is nearing it's end of production and I didn't want to miss the boat and have to buy used, nor did I want to be cash poor and suck a huge chunk out of savings.
So in the end, I'm leveraging a few points a year for a short term loan. So I'll pay a few hundred in interest for the next 6 months until the basement is done and I can pay it off. No big deal if you ask me.
Not everyone has $10,000 sitting in the bank that they are comfortable parting with in one lump sum.
Oh, and thanks Joe for the awesome communication and making such a short time frame happen! Don't hesitate to purchase from Joe regardless of how you decide to pay.
Has anyone use there finance service yet? Would like to hear how it is. I can't just she'll that kind of money all at once. This May be my last chance to get MMR.
Wow, lot of people telling others how to manage their life. Kind of sad really.
I'll admit it. I financed two of the games I own. Both paid off in one year and I would gladly do it again. The couple hundred in interest I paid was worth it in the enjoyment of myself and my family. You can all say I'm bad with my money but fact of the mater is my wife and I set our life up to where we can live off her paycheck and my check is for savings and having fun. I pay monthly into our savings account, two college funds and retirement.
Just because you chose to pay a little extra in interest on something doesn't mean you can't manage a budget.
Quoted from codered9394:Has anyone use there finance service yet? Would like to hear how it is. I can't just she'll that kind of money all at once. This May be my last chance to get MMR.
Quoted from codered9394:Has anyone use there finance service yet? Would like to hear how it is. I can't just she'll that kind of money all at once. This May be my last chance to get MMR.
Just contact me to apply. I have nothing to gain by this - I make nothing on it - it just helps facilitate game sales of course... But the people who I have sent there all were very happy with rates (with one exception) and terms and the professionalism of Paramount financing. It's a half page application with just basic info so they can run a credit score and usually 2 hour turnaround.
Email me at [email protected]
Thanks, Joe
If I were in this position, I would have taken it out of savings. Most critical life emergencies can be put on credit cards anyway, at worst you'd end up in the same place, but if no emergencies come up, you'd be up hundreds of dollars in interest.
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:nor did I want to be cash poor and suck a huge chunk out of savings.
Quoted from jalpert:If I were in this position, I would have taken it out of savings. Most critical life emergencies can be put on credit cards anyway, at worst you'd end up in the same place, but if no emergencies come up, you'd be up hundreds of dollars in interest.
I like having cash on hand in case something were to go sideways with my job or something else crazy. I won't be sitting on the balance for more than a few months, so at my low interest rate, it will only turn out to be a few dollars in interest. I was planning on buying one in the spring and paying cash, but I decided to buy it now because of them slowing production on WoZ and ramping up on The Hobbit. I didn't want to miss the NiB wagon.
Here is a novel idea.
Why not just get a proper bank loan?
You can get better rates than most "financing services".
Best part?
You can work with people you trust.
Personally, I am "cash and carry" on private sales.
Direct NIB games are credit card to distributor, and then pay off the next month.
This way you cannot get "butt pirated with a broomstick".
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Why not just get a proper bank loan?
Most unsecured bank loans carry higher interest rates than the financing that the company Joe works with is offering. I spoke to the company and they are actually leveraging the machine as collateral. They consider it "equipment" like if you were buying a skid loader or something.
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:Most unsecured bank loans carry higher interest rates than the financing that the company Joe works with is offering. I spoke to the company and they are actually leveraging the machine as collateral. They consider it "equipment" like if you were buying a skid loader or something.
No harm or foul in terms of the offer.
In my case...
5.5% is high? Just checked my bank for a personal loan for up to $10k.
Better than most financial services that are 9-10% based on good credit scores.
One the other hand, if a person wants to buy a BBB and finance for $20k, they should have their head examined.
Quoted from lancestorm:Understood, but I think the question is if you offer Apple Pay in store so those interested in a JJP or MMR ,etc could take advantage of this offer?
I imagine this would be of interest to quite a few people in the next 20 days. On top of the 22% cashback, it's 0% interest for the first 12 months for those that didn't want to pay it off immediately.
Quoted from PNorth:This is a good indication that pinball pricing has gotten out of hand...
You're blaming the wrong end of the stick.
Quoted from Blackjacker:I imagine this would be of interest to quite a few people in the next 20 days. On top of the 22% cashback, it's 0% interest for the first 12 months for those that didn't want to pay it off immediately.
0% interest is lucrative, no doubt.
If you "stick to your guns" and pay it off before the ending period which should be optional based on conditions, you win.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:5.5% is high? Just checked my bank for a personal loan for up to $10k.
I think I need a new bank in that case!
Mine advertises a personal line of credit at 8.25% and a signature loan <$25,000 with a 1-year term for 9.89%.
I have buddy that just went through this process with Paramount and what a SCAM! Joe is a great guy and this isn't negative on him. This isn't a debate of cash vs. credit, although that is a valid point.
Reviewing the contract you are basically locked in and can't pay it off early without paying the amount of the lease as if you paid it off over time. Low interest rates are great but after you take on insurance and properly tax, what you paying a lot more than you thought. My buddy was told it was a $1 buyout but in reality it took a lump sum of three payments to "buyout" the machine.
I told him he should have known it was bad news when the contract didn't list the interest rate.
Joe
Is the only guy I know that never makes a dime on anything. It's all about his love of the hobby.
Yeah I thought about doing this too and applied. Thought this was a great deal and instead of throwing 8k down I would pay it off in a year with a few extra hundred dollars extra. No biggie. Got approved at 7% and was pumped. He gave me an option to do 1,3,4, or 5 year payoff and what the monthly payments would be for each option. For instance if I took the full amount on a 1 year I would pay a total of almost $1000 extra. I started to do the math in my head and I was like something is wrong with these numbers that's not 7%. I have a friend who works in a bank as a lender and he didn't understand the numbers either. It actually came out to be 21% interest. If I did the 5 year I would end up paying around $14,500 total. Almost double of what the pin cost! I sent the guy an email asking where he was getting his numbers and that I had a friend who was a lender and told him what the numbers should be at 7% and just wanted an explanation. He responded with a lengthy email saying I wasn't wrong and was right with my numbers but that his company uses a different scale. He wrote more but said nothing of how he was getting 7%. Didn't answer my question just monuvered around it. Obviously I backed out as this was a terrible deal. Good thing I did because I found a guy who was selling his spot for a mmrle and I just payed him in full and am now waiting for the call when it comes. If you are thinking of doing this I would just say do your homework before you sign maybe you're ok with doing it maybe not but in my mind it definitely isn't worth it! SCAM!
Joe was great to work with and a super nice guy. Nothing against him I would definitely do business with him in the future. I had informed him of what the numbers were and how they weren't legit. He asked me to see the conversations I had with the guy and numbers because he was not aware that they were so high at such a low rate and wanted to inform people if this wasn't a good option. I tried sending my email conversations to him but for some reason they wouldn't send because it came back saying it was spam or malware or something. Either way do your homework!
The bank who is doing the lending views this as a high risk ..paramount told me the bank views pinball as having a ZERO value in case of a default. Use your house as collateral and you can get a better rate they told me... no not gonna do it....
The numbers didn't work for me either. Which is unfortunate.. I really wanted to support Joe and all he does. Maybe when Pats game comes out I can make a move and buy a JJP. Good luck to anyone who uses this lender...
Quoted from robotron:life is short, enjoy it. never seen a brinks truck in a funeral procession. i have friends wont enjoy a movie cause they are so cheap. many people i know that died left plenty money behind.
My dad's advice was always simple: "how much do I live for today and how much do I love for tomorrow." Balance is everything. Act too frugal and you'll miss out on life, be a spendthrift today and you may end up broke.
My aunt made millions in the 80s as a fashion designer. Never saved. Had no kids. Took lavish trips. When she died of cancer last year, they had nothing but the apartment they lived in and a mountain of clothes to their name. My dad on the other hand saved his whole life, never lived beyond his means. When he got a big bonus at work he didn't run and get another home or fancy car, he reinvested it back into his company. Now he's been retired for 15 years, lives off of dividends and a sweet pension. Converted an old bank to live in and to this day continues to make wise, long term financial plans. His short term lifestyle is amazing because of his long term planning.
Like all expensive toy hobbies there's a huge mix of financial situations occurring amongst the collector base. Some have a ton, others doing well off, others scraping by. The only thing that doesn't change is the price of a NIB. No matter where you live, that price is fixed. I hope all of us make wise decisions when we are young so we can all retire early and just play pinball and drink beer.
Quoted from Blackstorm:Yeah I thought about doing this too and applied. Thought this was a great deal and instead of throwing 8k down I would pay it off in a year with a few extra hundred dollars extra. No biggie. Got approved at 7% and was pumped. He gave me an option to do 1,3,4, or 5 year payoff and what the monthly payments would be for each option. For instance if I took the full amount on a 1 year I would pay a total of almost $1000 extra. I started to do the math in my head and I was like something is wrong with these numbers that's not 7%. I have a friend who works in a bank as a lender and he didn't understand the numbers either. It actually came out to be 21% interest. If I did the 5 year I would end up paying around $14,500 total. Almost double of what the pin cost! I sent the guy an email asking where he was getting his numbers and that I had a friend who was a lender and told him what the numbers should be at 7% and just wanted an explanation. He responded with a lengthy email saying I wasn't wrong and was right with my numbers but that his company uses a different scale. He wrote more but said nothing of how he was getting 7%. Didn't answer my question just monuvered around it. Obviously I backed out as this was a terrible deal. Good thing I did because I found a guy who was selling his spot for a mmrle and I just payed him in full and am now waiting for the call when it comes. If you are thinking of doing this I would just say do your homework before you sign maybe you're ok with doing it maybe not but in my mind it definitely isn't worth it! SCAM!
Joe was great to work with and a super nice guy. Nothing against him I would definitely do business with him in the future. I had informed him of what the numbers were and how they weren't legit. He asked me to see the conversations I had with the guy and numbers because he was not aware that they were so high at such a low rate and wanted to inform people if this wasn't a good option. I tried sending my email conversations to him but for some reason they wouldn't send because it came back saying it was spam or malware or something. Either way do your homework!
Joe is a great guy but man he should have done this before you before offering it up to the community. If you are bringing a deal to someone's door you have to know the truth of the deal, no?
Quoted from kaneda:My dad's advice was always simple: "how much do I live for today and how much do I love for tomorrow." Balance is everything. Act too frugal and you'll miss out on life, be a spendthrift today and you may end up broke.
My aunt made millions in the 80s as a fashion designer. Never saved. Had no kids. Took lavish trips. When she died of cancer last year, they had nothing but the apartment they lived in and a mountain of clothes to their name. My dad on the other hand saved his whole life, never lived beyond his means. When he got a big bonus at work he didn't run and get another home or fancy car, he reinvested it back into his company. Now he's been retired for 15 years, lives off of dividends and a sweet pension. Converted an old bank to live in and to this day continues to make wise, long term financial plans. His short term lifestyle is amazing because of his long term planning.
Like all expensive toy hobbies there's a huge mix of financial situations occurring amongst the collector base. Some have a ton, others doing well off, others scraping by. The only thing that doesn't change is the price of a NIB. No matter where you live, that price is fixed. I hope all of us make wise decisions when we are young so we can all retire early and just play pinball and drink beer.
Good story and tips. I always say pay yourself first in terms of a set percentage for your 401k (ideally 10% or more) plus an amount towards savings and then buy whatever.
If you have a good amount saved up in your 401k it would be cheaper to take a 401k loan for a pin and pay it off over a year or two. You pay a small % in interest on the loan but you are paying that interest to your 401k account rather then a bank. The only downside is that taking an $8k 401k loan for one to two years will result in less generated earned interest on your 401k balance.
Quoted from PinballSTAR:Chuck, about reading and looking for pitfalls, yes that's true - I don't disagree of course that's good advice. It's new (like Wednesday new) to me and I will be looking for anything like that. I do not get the sense anyone's out to hurt anyone. Let's face it, if you don't pay any loan back there are due to be repercussions and rightfully so. But your comments on the rates are not correct when you are shooting from the hip, nobody's looking to lynch anyone. Again, good credit, good rate. I'm trying to assist people who are already buying games from me with high rate credit cards. Happens every week or two, a few tell me the rate they are paying and I even offer them to pay the game in payments and I'll hold it for them to save the $, usually they want the game now.
Try again. What I predicted looks to be true.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:If you have a good amount saved up in your 401k it would be cheaper to take a 401k loan for a pin and pay it off over a year or two. You pay a small % in interest on the loan but you are paying that interest to your 401k account rather then a bank. The only downside is that taking an $8k 401k loan for one to two years will result in less generated earned interest on your 401k balance.
Extremely BAD advice - NEVER take a loan from a 401k in any but the most dire circumstance. If you lose your job you'll have to pay that loan off within (typically) 60 days; if the loan isn't paid off you'll have to pay taxes on the amount withdrawn AND a 10% penalty on the amount withdrawn.
Quoted from robotronjohn:The bank who is doing the lending views this as a high risk ..paramount told me the bank views pinball as having a ZERO value in case of a default.
I have heard the the same thing from insurance companies for years because they never believe they can get a proper estimate of value even for resale, as their are no formal "pinball appraisers". However, NIB games seem a bit of stretch, as there is plenty of sales data for newer machines, but they are unwilling to do homework, because the hobby is considered "obtuse".
If it was a classic car, motorcycle, firearms, etc the game "changes".
Figures. Sad, we may know that a new game retains most of its value, but a loan officer isn't about to try to convince a bank's board of that, when the bank can't add its name to a non-existent title.
Final thoughts on this... I tried offering something different that I kept getting asked about weekly from people. When the opportunity presented itself I figured why not. I have referred a number of people to them and I think most got approved and minimal did follow through, which probably speaks volumes. Until I sent people there I couldn't know what the result would be. I was told one thing when I asked the questions and were answered favorably - low interest rates, no pre-payment penalty, etc... Nobody, after repeated requests, has sent me their offers / contracts so I could know first hand. Short of me applying myself I couldn't see what others were getting offered. Keep in mind, I'm not involved with the process in any way, it's financial and there are privacy issues so I never got any word on what was what other than someone was approved. I also have no way to know if someone had a horrible credit score that lead to less than favorable terms. I do know a lot of the interest rates quoted were low, but I think fly in the ointment was how things were structured - I think to Paramount they are used to financing to commercial concerns / operators, actually I know they are. I think it is more of a lease than it is a loan. So I think ultimately the terms for a business making money on the game are just easy to swallow as it's either get inventory and earn or don't have equipment to operate. This is a legitimate company, it is no scam, just not for the purpose we as collectors might need. I don't think things are designed for the consumer and I do agree and have said all along if you can't afford a machine, don't buy it - it was known up front you will pay more. But I see a TON of people using credit cards with high rates every month when I sell games and many asking about alternatives such as financing, so I gave it a shot. I least I tried to offer something to the community and my customers vs just posting ads on Ebay and not giving a crap to try to do more or something different. So my apologies to Chuck for scolding you for being negative, you were in fact quite on target - doesn't seem to be a the silver bullet I was hoping for. I tried. I'll keep it as an option but I won't be offering it with each game quote inquiry as I did for a few weeks while we tried it out... Thanks to those who inquired and gave a thumbs up on the process and my service / communication and for trying at least to bring something else to the table. : )
joe, we know the question really is if there would be sales tax or not! lol. personal joke if anyone is wondering but more importantly, those of us who know you have no doubt you were trying to do a nice thing for the hobby. you definitely shouldn't waste another thought on it and move on with all the great things you do like the charity auctions and the pins in hospitals for sick kids.
Anthony - Lol - sales tax - I couldn't figure out what you were talking about then I laughed - please don't remind me of that one ! We got you straightened up on that finally ! No biggie - I gave Chuck shit for being negative and his words of caution were correct - he deserved my bow. LOL.
Two more WOZ charity donations coming up I haven't announced yet... Hopefully both in April - one to Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and one to Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, that one of the game we donated to Project Pinball so we'll be doing it with them. Stay tuned would love to have local pinball folks attend both of course ! We're looking to do more raffles too - they do lead to these games getting donated. Allentown in May is my thinking. I can do them now, but I really do like having the game there for people to play when we do them.
Yeah, props to Joe for trying something!
I talked to the Paramount people a couple times over the last year. The first time was over a Star Wars Battle Pod I wanted to put on location locally and later on some pins.. Not a big fan of financing equipment but if it's for a business purpose, there are some extra considerations where it can sometimes make sense.
My two cents from Paramount was that they are a company that is typically angled towards an equipment-lease (but own) option, like a construction company needing to finance a major piece of equipment such as a skid loader or in this case an operator that is looking to lease some machines to reduce upfront costs and start building their business. They probably saw an opportunity to allow in traditional / personal loans and took in an influx of new paper, which made their bank nervous. I'm guessing, here.
In the end, I didn't end up using them for either project but that was an individual judgement call. I did cash instead (and skipped the Battle Pod idea).
That said.. everyone's finances, needs & ability are different. If you are wanting to finance a pin for private ownership, check with your local bank or with an online loan company like SoFi or Lending Club. SoFi will generally give you the lowest rates while Lending Club's crowd-funding model generally gives you faster results. I've used both options over the years for things like expensive home repairs and I've been very happy with the experience for short term loans through those methods. You apply online for most, upload some supporting docs and get approved and funded within a week.
Personally, I don't want to pay interest on my toys but I don't mind deductible interest on business-use items.
If you are looking for a financing opportunity they are out there. If you are a business looking to do the commercial-lease stuff for those purposes, companies like Paramount are still a good option.
PS, I've seen four other gaming distributors (some local, some national) list Paramount for financing. Probably someone at Paramount said, "Hey, here's an unsaturated market we can target.."
Not that I'm recommending others. Just buy from Joe when you're ready
Anyone considering elaborate financing on a pinball machine has probably already made enough lousy financial decisions to have awful credit. When people are reporting terrible credit terms, they have earned that gift.
Quoted from arcademojo:Personally I don't care if the op makes money or not off this. But, I hate to say this and a few of you might want to sit down to read this but most of the pinball home hobbyists don't have the cash to buy a NIB pin!!! Including myself. So financing a new game is their only option. Spend an extra few hundred in interest to own the game now no problem. This will open the doors for many people to get a game they could have never got before. Or is it "hey you're not rich you don't deserve to own a game"?
Out of all my friends I only know one person that has the cash to buy a NIB pin and he would rather finance it and keep his cash in the bank anyway. On another note, Can I be first in line for a repo MMR with a huge discount?
If financing your game is your only option, it's probably a bad idea unless it's going on location. It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has to do with financial common sense. No one "needs" a NIB.
If you want to put it on credit, purchase with a cash back or rewards card. Transfer the entire amount within the first month to another one of your credit cards that is offering a 1% or 2% transfer fee and then 0% interest for 18 months. That way you get the benefit of cash back or other points and pay a very small amount in transfer fee. If you pay it off in 18 months, you almost did it for free. To each their own, but there are much better ways than paying 7% and up in interest.
Quoted from ercvacation:If you want to put it on credit, purchase with a cash back or rewards card. Transfer the entire amount within the first month to another one of your credit cards that is offering a 1% or 2% transfer fee and then 0% interest for 18 months. That way you get the benefit of cash back or other points and pay a very small amount in transfer fee. If you pay it off in 18 months, you almost did it for free. To each their own, but there are much better ways than paying 7% and up in interest.
Have you or anyone you know actually done this? Credit card companies are pretty savvy and generally don't take on a high risk unsecured loan unless then are going to make money. An article looked through several of these deals and found the actual cost is similar to a loan in which 7-12% interest is paid. Maybe a few people can beat the credit card companies at their own game, but most don't or these offers wouldn't exist.
I do this all the time. I normally pay off my credit card monthly, but there are times when I make large purchases on my Southwest Card and don't want to pay it all at once. I try to stay within my budget monthly, so not paying all at once works better for me. I'm actually doing this currently and part of the balance transfer was for a pin. My southwest card is 14% so I don't ever leave balances on there but I use this card for everything so I get points for all my trips I take yearly. It works cause I haven't paid for a flight in 7 years. I have 7 credit cards, but usually only 2 max are used at a time. The benefit of having all the cards is that if you have a lot of credit available without utilizing it, you are building your credit score. Chances are that one of my credit cards has a balance transfer special going on at any given point in time. I paid 2% to transfer to my PNC card and PNC offered 0% for 18 months. Make sure you pay within the 18 months or you can get whacked with interest, but if you plan accordingly and haven't been able to pay it down, just transfer it to another card using the 1% or 2% transfer fee and start the process over. Now if you have a bunch of credit cards, make sure to use them from time to time so that they don't get canceled due to inactivity.
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