(Topic ID: 308667)

Pinball "too complicated" for kids these days?

By ExSquid

2 years ago


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#79 2 years ago

I have to say, even among my friends (upper 30s), there isn't much of an interest in pinball outside very casually playing. One or two games, then they move on. But from what I hear from the old timers, that wasn't much different from back in the day. I think that there's a huge selection bias going on here: we're the odd ones out.

The flip side is that the internet has made it easy for people who do_ like it to find other people like them and learn more. When kids (or even adults) these days fall into a hobby, they go deep, looking up youtube videos, twitch streams and so on. I saw something similar happen with a friend's 8 year old kid, who came over and played my old EM, and now I get texts from his dad telling me about the "research" he's doing, how to get better at playing.

#127 2 years ago

So, I’m probably going to go against most people here and say I don’t think pinball needs to get easier, more accessible or include more training modes. I also don’t think that there is anything wrong with the children of today that makes them unable to “get” pinball.

What I think has happened was that pinball has gone from being a mainstream casual hobby to a hardcore niche one. But the best part of the Internet is that it has created a place for hardcore niche hobbies to thrive.

A similar thing happened in the fighting game community. The original developers never really got how passionate people would get into figuring or frame perfect counters, or even do much past the button mashing phase. But they did and instead of ignoring it, the developers learned into it, frequently making the game harder for those people, not easier. This led to those games limping along with a small (but passionate) community, until the Internet allowed those people to link up. A similar thing happened with retro gaming, like Tetris, or the speed running communities online. I also think that companies like Stern are taking a page from those playbooks.

I think pinball is one of those communities. I think that there are still enough pinball machines, and people interested in playing them, to make a very passionate community.

But if anything can be improved on, it’s that we need to understand this is a niche hobby and that we need to be supportive of anybody taking even a casual interest in it.

#135 2 years ago
Quoted from BriannaWu:

I appreciate that your argument is positively stated here.
You liken pinball to fighting games, which I love. The community is not in great shape because of this exact problem. The last Soul Calibur crashed, the last Tekken came out seven years ago, and Street Fighter 5 is the largest thing we have, a PlayStation exclusive with a dwindling player base. Sony had to buy Evo because it wasn’t financially sustainable.
We kind of talked to ourselves until the genre became culturally irrelevant. The freshest game to come out in the last 20 years is Smash, which even children can play.
I don’t think every game should be accessible, but I think more should be.

I guess my point was that those games that crashed TRIED to be large successes to culture at large, as did EVO. But people are still obsessed with the games that came out decades ago, and new games that make fall under the larger culture’s radar (like most games by Arc Sys) are still popular in their communities.

I don’t think you need to be a run away hit to still be successful to a small group of passionate players.

Do I want pinball to be a runaway cultural success? Sure, but I’m probably similarly happy if it just stays the same as what it is.

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#241 2 years ago
Quoted from Dent00:

It is obvious from the comments in this tiltforums thread above that some players are taking advantage of the fact that some rules are hidden from the average player.
Some seem to take great pride in the fact that they have done that background research already, which other players may or may not be aware of.
Some people are even drawn to a particular machine in order to discover the rules, which then, gives them a perceived advantage over others that have not done that research.
So, how does that relate to a brand new kid playing a pinball machine for the first time that has no idea how to use the flipper buttons or what the action button does?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. After playing my home EM exclusively for a few weeks, I played a new game at a bar. What kind of struck me was how much EASIER the new game was than the EM. Until I realized that it wasn't.

My old EM is brutal. You stand at the game and you can figure out what you need to do right away, but doing it is hard. I feel like I've made a ton of progress by not draining just slightly more than people coming by to play.

I think that new machines have figured out a good way to make games fun for a variety of players by having deep rule sets. A new player doesn't notice how complex a new pinball machine is. They put in a quarter, randomly start shooting the balls off, and they start seeing a lot of combos go off and hit ramps without much difficulty and walk away to tell their friends how good they are at it.

A person who plays a lot of pinball knows that what the casual player is seeing isn't REALLY the good combos and high scores, and gets to grinding to pick them out. And there is a lot there for them to find that the casual player would never even know about. (Which is all pretty identical to the speedrunning communities.)

I actually think it's pretty brilliant on new game designers. They've managed to make games that appeal to a lot of different skill levels.

If there is an area that pinball games can work on, it's the intermediate players, who start to realize there's more to the game, but don't have a clear idea on how to progress. But in today's day and age of the internet guide and youtube videos, it doesn't seem like nearly as large of a chasm anymore.

#248 2 years ago
Quoted from WJxxxx:

That's pretty much it. Almost ignorance is bliss. I took a friends kids to an arcade last week and one of them was so proud of his score of 110mil compared to his brother who only got 30ish - the game was Demolition Man. He was happy that he'd got what he though was a good score, used the trigger grips, had made the claw work and possibly even got a multiball - he didn't care that there was so much more to see on the game, or that the score wasn't great.
But there seems to be an expectation that any level player should be able to blow the game up and reach wizard modes, and if they can't it's because the game's too complicated - not that they just aren't good enough, people don't seem to be able to accept that - maybe it comes from giving out medals and trophies to all competitors as kids, rather than just the winner getting the trophy and 4th place being told tough luck.
Social media / streams are a double edged sword. Firstly they often show you what is available in the game and what you're currently missing out on, but they often also show you how to get there or at least point you in the right direction.
If they weren't there you wouldn't know you were missing out, just like my friends kids, and would likely be just as happy with a score good for YOU.
Regardless of the game focus on your score, or progress, don't focus on other peoples achievements.

I think it's more social media thing than the participation trophies (which, while real, I think their effect on the next generation is hugely overstated). I can tell from my own personal experience, you find a hobby you like, you go online, maybe watch a twitch streamer, and see how they do it. But the problem is that they make things look EASY. The gap between you and them is debilitating.

I think that's why meetups and amateur leagues are awesome. You start to see people who are in your range of ability, both a little better and a little worse, so you know what improvement gets you. Also, the really good people there can scale back their advice for someone at your skill level. (I also think that streamers like ABE_FLIPS are great, because they produce skill related content for people getting into the game, as well as your typical stream).

Quoted from Tommy-dog:

Most kids can not:
1. Read or write cursive writing.
2. Read and fold a paper map.
3. Read an analog clock.
4. Do face-to-face interactions.
5. Make correct change without using a computer.
6. Live without social media any length of time.
7. Sit still and just relax.

1. This skill is outdated and being phased out in schools. It's honestly much more important to teach kids how to type (which I'm sure they're better at than the generation before at their age).
2. Go hiking and camping a lot. Friends' kdis are fine at this. It's pointless for pretty much anyone else.
3. All my friends kids and the kids in the school I worked at (there were analog clocks on the wall) seemed to manage just fine
4. Even during covid, kids seem to be doing alright at hanging out with each other.
5. There probably is a generational gap with this one. I'm better than most of my friends, having worked at an ice cream parlor during my high school years, but older coworkers seem to always be better at it. However, since I'm also card based most of the time, I don't really see a big loss.
6. I won't disagree that kids use social media too much, but they do seem to have some knowledge of how addictive it is and can drop it when they need to. It's my parents generation that seem to not be able to let it go.
7. Yeah, also haven't seen anything that says this is true, outside of just kids naturally being more hyper than older adults, but that isn't something new

#278 2 years ago
Quoted from ViperTim:

This is the truth.
Now I’m 29 so I’m in the generation that usually wasn’t raised around pinball and arcades.
We’ve had many pinballs in the house when growing up and I believe I can count to 1 friend that was even remotely a little bit interested in it, he would play a little and that’s about it.
The rest just did not simply care about it.
And now as an adult none of my friends are interested in pinball. Just how it is.

Man, what a difference a few years make, because I'm only a little older than you (37) and I noticed the exact opposite. Barcades are hugely popular, even throughout covid. When people come over, we immediately seem to gravitate to my pinball machine.

It might be a casual interest, but it feels like a real interest. Maybe it's a big city thing?

#287 2 years ago
Quoted from Blackwolf:

And ironically, those board games listed aren't even *that complicated* compared to a lot of European-style strategy board games! Those (especially Villianous) are our "easy don't have to memorize a lot of rules" games in our household. We'll bring out Concordia or Eldritch Horror for the "set up for a few hours and get comfy" days.

We had some friends over a few weeks back to play Dune. Unfortunately, we were already a couple of drinks in when we cracked it out and it didn't go over so well. xD

I also keep trying to convince people to play Diplomacy with me, but nobody wants to watch a twenty minute long video to play a game. They just want to play Secret Hitler instead.

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