(Topic ID: 308667)

Pinball "too complicated" for kids these days?

By ExSquid

2 years ago


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There are 305 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 7.
#51 2 years ago
Quoted from FrankJ:

Our non-pinball friends don’t care about pinball.

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#52 2 years ago
Quoted from FrankJ:

Being too complicated is simply an excuse.

This is what I'm starting to think.

#53 2 years ago

Anyone ever have adults just walk by their pins without even looking at them... like they aren't even there? I always find that odd. These things are so visually stunning, at least to me they are.

#54 2 years ago
Quoted from radium:

My kids are interested, but get frustrated with the difficulty of just keeping the ball in play. They don't have enough attention span to practice to get past that.
It has nothing to do with the game complexity. They don't get far enough to realize the game is anything other than "wack the ball and hit stuff".

Another thought…

Godzilla LE next to Gottlieb Goin Nuts

My kids would play goin nuts all day long because it’s timed ball wacking.

#55 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I usually see it startle people when they aren't aware of what that loud noise is.

Yes, they look around like they are guilty of something.

My staff yells out Free Game! When it happens to make them feel better.

#56 2 years ago

I don't think it's too complicated for them. It probably requires more energy than they would like put into it.

I have kids that play Minecraft, and the game is really really involved. One of the big pulls is the social structure around it. They have friends at school, cousins, people on the street (joking), that they can talk to about it. They can play games as a group.

#57 2 years ago
Quoted from Dent00:

My thought is that contemporary machines do have more rules.
But the main difference on newer machines is that the rules are basically hidden unless you research the machine to find out the details, or play the machine many times to uncover the rules yourself.
If the rules were written on the machine card, like they were for older machines, more new players might catch on faster.
Granted, some basic rules are usually written on the instruction card, but the details are still hidden from the average new player.
The attention span of most young players probably makes the new machine less interesting for that reason.
Some newer machines also have so many rules that they might not even fit on the card, so there's that also.

+1 to this. I'm pretty new to pinball and for a long time I would just shoot and not really know what I was doing regardless of the machine. Once I took the time to stick on one machine and learn it compeltely all of a sudden every other machine made more sense to me. The things that are standard across all pins make it really easy to move from pin to pin once you're familiar with them, but in my experience most people don't know about these standard features and telling them to shoot things that are lit is the easiest way to tell them how to play.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

I usually see it startle people when they aren't aware of what that loud noise is.

Yeah I thought something was broken the first time I heard it. Sounded like a blown speaker or something weird like that.

I think this might be where pinball suffers a bit, it assumes that you know things like what the knocker is or what loops/orbits are etc. There are standardized features that make a lot of sense when you understand them but if no one ever took the time to explain them to you they can seem mystifying.

My biggest issue is with the apron cards. They do a really bad job of explaining what to do because they usually have way too much information them. I think most games would benefit from a basic set of guidelines while leaving out the deeper details to avoid that overwhelming feeling you get when you don't know what it's talking about.

I own an Iron Maiden machine and despite it having some of the best callouts and relatively clear objectives people still ask all the time what they're supposed to be doing.

Next time try making the explanation more simple and see if people become more engaged. Don't explain every mode, just tell them the main objective (shoot white arrows to start a mode, try to survive through every mode) and explain that shooting lit features is generally what you want.

#58 2 years ago
Quoted from Anony:

I own an Iron Maiden machine and despite it having some of the best callouts and relatively clear objectives people still ask all the time what they're supposed to be doing.

That's the game everyone gravitates towards at my house. You can just smash the ball and a lot of things happen no matter what you hit. Guardians gives everyone the problems.

#59 2 years ago
Quoted from pcprogrammer:

Anyone ever have adults just walk by their pins without even looking at them... like they aren't even there? I always find that odd. These things are so visually stunning, at least to me they are.

Yes! This is literally me watching them do that!

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#60 2 years ago
Quoted from NC_Pin:

Fortnite is about 1000x more complicated than AIQ.

That's for sure! I cannot even remotely wrap my head around Fortnite...and I'm a gamer! lol

17
#61 2 years ago

It's nothing to do about being too complicated.

It's not what they are into.

Every generation is different. When I was a kid it was toy trains and dolls. Kids that grew up in the video game fad era wanted game rooms in their home as they got older and got a house.

Kids today they are playing on their phones.

Are you into what they are doing ?

Sharing is learning and it's a two way street. Spend time with them in their interests and yours. You'll be glad you did.

LTG : )

#62 2 years ago

my 15-year-old daughter's friends always ooh and aah over our STLE but they play 2 or three games and that's plenty; they're on to something else. pinball doesn't have that steady dopamine drip that people are used to from video games and apps that employ behavioral psychologists on the engineering teams

there's an ice rink near me that has 5 or 6 games and the op sets them to 5 balls for a quarter just because he hates to see kids on their phones and he barely takes anything in

#63 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

It's nothing to do about being too complicated.
It's not what they are into.
Every generation is different. When I was a kid it was toy trains and dolls. Kids that grew up in the video game fad era wanted game rooms in their home as they got older and got a house.
Kids today they are playing on their phones.
Are you into what they are doing ?
Sharing is learning and it's a two way street. Spend time with them in their interests and yours. You'll be glad you did.
LTG : )

I agree, a lot of people are assuming things here. I'm just going off of what they actually say to me. That's all. The more I think about it the more I agree with the people saying its just a convenient excuse to not play. I'm just hoping when they get just a little older they will come around maybe even just a little bit. What's weird is the youngest out of all of them 8, loves the games the most!

#64 2 years ago
Quoted from Black_Knight:

Yes, they look around like they are guilty of something.
My staff yells out Free Game! When it happens to make them feel better.

Before I really got into pinball, when I was a kid I used to play the machines at the movie theater. I had no idea why the machines made that noise, I thought it was a problem with the speakers.

#65 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

"It's not what they are into."

…...Our music is so awesome! everyone should love it. Pinball is awesome everyone should love it.

That's not the way it is.

My kids and their friends play pinball when they are at the house, but it doesn't last.
They quickly get tired of it, and wind up in the garage talking.

It's just not their thing.

Whatever....All of the people my age still like it!

E

#66 2 years ago
Quoted from ExSquid:

I think you hit the nail on the head here. But again I really don't remember being like that when I was in front of these at there age. Who knows...

When I was a kid, I had no idea there were rules and certain shots to hit. I'd just pump quarters into it and enjoy all the action. Maybe, because you mentioned they had to hit certain shots to get certain rewards, it took the fun out of it?

#67 2 years ago
Quoted from electricsquirrel:

…...Our music is so awesome! everyone should love it. Pinball is awesome everyone should love it.
That's not the way it is.
E

I would never or have assumed it was or is.

#68 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

It's nothing to do about being too complicated.
It's not what they are into.
Every generation is different. When I was a kid it was toy trains and dolls. Kids that grew up in the video game fad era wanted game rooms in their home as they got older and got a house.
Kids today they are playing on their phones.
Are you into what they are doing ?
Sharing is learning and it's a two way street. Spend time with them in their interests and yours. You'll be glad you did.
LTG : )

Wise words, I squad up with my daughter and son playing Fortnite several times a week, and they “squad” up with me playing pins a couple times a week. It is delightful, I am lucky man. I am no longer a liability in Fortnite and the boy has started cracking the top ten on our two pins. We share music and memes daily and he’s is excited for us to get an insider connected pin, he loves getting achievements. What a wonderful time to be a dad and kid! I often tell them the hardships of having to wait till Saturdays to watch cartoons or worse…If you miss an episode of a tv show you never saw it again! I still don’t know how the 1985 Transfromers cartoon series ended!

I drifted a little of topic. Have a great day.

#69 2 years ago

I got my oldest daughter (who is autistic) hooked on pinball 8 years ago. She fell in love with Monopoly. STTNG is her favorite game to-date.

As for new games, even I can’t follow all the rules of the new games. But games like Adams Family and AFM still keep my interest as super fun.

#70 2 years ago
Quoted from ExSquid:

Yes! This is literally me watching them do that![quoted image]

Wow, you're Jim Carrey?

Sorry, I have to call you out on the "literally" so I can tell my daughter I don't just pick on her for saying it incorrectly!

Anyway, I think pinball appeals to a certain type of person for the most part. Something is actually happening, as opposed to pixels. Growing up so overstimulated by screens somehow makes it harder for kids nowadays to be grabbed by that notion.

#71 2 years ago
Quoted from rx3:

When I was a kid, I had no idea there were rules and certain shots to hit. I'd just pump quarters into it and enjoy all the action. Maybe, because you mentioned they had to hit certain shots to get certain rewards, it took the fun out of it?

they asked me what they where supposed to do. Then when I told them they played one game and got “ annoyed / frustrated “? I’m guessing and gave up .

#72 2 years ago

Just stick a few Pokemon characters on the backglass and all the kids will be playing pinball.

My boys used to play some but never anymore. Any other kids that have come over got excited at first, plays for a few minutes, and then never again. No use trying to explain any rules because they are just trying to keep the ball alive. Adults are the same and honestly I was the same when younger even with simpler games. It would be a waste of time and disaster trying to design pins for non pinheads. If you are going to be spending $7000-$12000 on a pin, you want the features to match the price.

#73 2 years ago

I think you have to be an adult to really appreciate pinball. The kids see the flashing lights and artwork and that's what hooks them in - not so much the gameplay. They like the visual flash that they are familiar with on their phone apps. When I was growing up, it was Atari and NES instead of phone apps.

#74 2 years ago
Quoted from electricsquirrel:

…...Our music is so awesome! everyone should love it. Pinball is awesome everyone should love it.

The former we are correct on. Bands like the Imagine Dragons both suck and blow.

#75 2 years ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

(and I'm teaching him the calculus about gems, placement, and levelling up Avengers).

Can you teach me next?

24
#76 2 years ago

As someone who grew up on video games and still plays them more than pinball, let me explain something to the old farts here.

Compared to video games, a pinball machine is absolutely terrible at communicating itself to a new pinball player. The problem is that everything you can possibly shoot, and every interactable toy and mech is right there in front of you, all at once.

"it's easy, just shoot the flashing lights!"
...exactly which of the hundreds of flashing and blinking lights under the glass do you mean, grandpa?
"the arrows, idiot!"
why does my ball come back sometimes but not other times?
"that other flashing light at the bottom, moron!"
Do I watch the screen or the table?
"Both!"
I hear a voice counting down, what does that mean?
"It's just a hurry up"
... what the hell is a hurry up?

Pinball machines are bad communicators. Every since the introduction of the alpha-numeric system, this should have gotten better, but it hasn't. We have damn LCD screens in these things, capable of showing all kinds of tutorials and instructions, yet pinball is still the absolute worst at communicating basic skills and concepts to new players.

Pinball assumes you already know a ton about pinball.

Video games do not.

Go buy "Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild" for your kids' Switch. It doesn't matter if you've never played a single video game in your life - That game will tell you EXACTLY everything you need to know to play it properly - what buttons to press, and how they correspond to actions on the screen. It will give you all kinds of challenges and options that will hook you as a player, challenging your hand/eye coordination and problem solving abilities.

Video games teach you the basic toolset of buttons and skills in order to play the game.

Pinball does nothing. At best, on Stern machines, it shows a hand pressing a start button and then flipping the flippers. That's the equivalent of a drivers' tutorial being inserting a key and then wiggling the steering wheel back and forth

This is why younger kids have a hard time getting into pinball. They are used to the "interactive" entertainment in their lives (video games) being really good at explaining the "interactivity" part.

#77 2 years ago

Here's my observation as a tech that sometimes hangs out just to people watch when the doors open. Kids are generally excited to come in. Then I begin to hear that god awful sound, constant non stop dual flippering at about 4 hz. In my mind I'm seeing the stresses on the linkage and coil stop. No ball there to limit the energy. When I approach the area where I am hearing the OCF usually the parent is (A) unaware themselves what a pinball machine is or (B) the parent is on their cell phone.
However, I did see one instance where a parent brought their child to Strikes and Spares. The little boy seemed interested in that machine for SOME reason. We set him up with the stool riser. His mother was super attentive. I asked if he had ever played before and she said no. First few balls were a disaster. I gave a few pointers. The mother encouraged. This kid was maybe 5 years old. A few more balls and he not ONLY was timing good as best he could BUT he also used left and right accordingly. I often think of this experience when I see the OCF kids and remind myself that that there is hope.
One trick I use sometimes use is - for older kids who should know better, I say to them "Hey do you want to play better? When you play baseball and are up at bat do you just swing the bat constantly?" They generally look at me like I'm a total nut.

#78 2 years ago

The newer games are made for older people. They younger kids like older games/. Easier to operate & understand.
Older folks like the nostalgic part of the game. Kids just want something to shoot & destroy, or they lose interest

#79 2 years ago

I have to say, even among my friends (upper 30s), there isn't much of an interest in pinball outside very casually playing. One or two games, then they move on. But from what I hear from the old timers, that wasn't much different from back in the day. I think that there's a huge selection bias going on here: we're the odd ones out.

The flip side is that the internet has made it easy for people who do_ like it to find other people like them and learn more. When kids (or even adults) these days fall into a hobby, they go deep, looking up youtube videos, twitch streams and so on. I saw something similar happen with a friend's 8 year old kid, who came over and played my old EM, and now I get texts from his dad telling me about the "research" he's doing, how to get better at playing.

#80 2 years ago

Checkout the P3 by Multimorphic. The large LCD screen can present information in a way which is a lot easier for young players to follow and the modular system allows developers to create games specifically for kids:

#81 2 years ago

Not to side with the younger generation (cause I think they suck overall)

I find allot of modern games to be a chore to learn also and hate having no idea whats going on with new machines.

Most of them are not walk up and play friendly at all.

I know there is allot of want for "deep" games and crazy rules but I don't think that always makes for a better experience or more fun.

#82 2 years ago

PINHEAD: “See, you’ll hit this here to light the multipliers and that allows you go over here to light lock to begin stacking the multi-balls together…”

KID: “I wanna smack this button on top...”

#83 2 years ago
Quoted from Vino:

PINHEAD: “See, you’ll hit this here to light the multipliers and that allows you go over here to light lock to begin stacking the multi-balls together…”
KID: “I wanna smack this button on top...”

Lmao

#84 2 years ago

My kids just wailed away for about a year (11/12) now they are 12/13 and we go over at least one objective before starting a game .IMDN is our house favorite also .Actually everyone that plays here has that as they’re favorite .

#85 2 years ago

From my observations it's simply the attention span. Kids these days have so much access to media/games that are super shallow, but designed to be immediately gratifying. Whenever we have people over and the kids see the pins all lit up, they always quickly flock to them. But what I see every single time is, they literally look at the next machine even before finishing ball 1 on their current game. They just can't wait to go the next thing... Seriously I spend the whole time just resetting the games over and over again because they flip for 10 seconds and then just walk away from the machine on to the next one (while ball 1 is still in play, sometimes it hasn't even drained yet). So each machine is sat on ball 2/3 and playing the pre-ball launch music. Its nice to see the kids playing the pins, but at the same time it's infuriating!

13
#86 2 years ago

My 2cents as a video game developer for 20 years and the mindset of modern gaming: also I just read KingVidiot who is 100% on the same page as me.

+Seriously think about this: first time pinballer's don't even know what multi-ball is, what it does, or how to achieve it, and may never see a multi-ball in their life.

+No new player want's to pay $1.25 per game and lose 3 balls in less than a minute. I applaud those who have hourly or daily rate bars. Crank on the game and learn it. 100x more enjoyable.

+Pinball is too static. Flashing lights isn't a gameplay feature, yet I see at least one big name brand advertising "600+ Individual LED's". I can play any video game at 120Hz, 4K resolution, thats billions of nice LED's that actually look pretty and I can do cool animated power moves and shoot guns. I can be a superhero in the new SpiderMan game.

Pinball you hit something and a light turns on. Pretty boring for a kid who has the world at his hands with videogames. Drop targets aren't that interesting either. Metallica is one of the first games I really loved because of the electrocution sequence. Very cool. The hammer into grave is also cool. Stranger Things has some cool animation as well etc.

+Led Zeppelin: awesome example of a dynamic playfield. The center piece pops up: "Oh hey something happened, this must be important". Good communication. Something brand new popped up in the game, its not static.

+There is no tutorial in any game out there. Yes there is usually one paragraph printed on the machine, but it doesn't light up the playfield spots step by step and explaining how the game works. They print: "Hit the ramp for points".. there are 2 ramps.... What gets the most points etc.

+Why is there no tutorial button to showcase the playfield. Or better yet if it's an LCD game, let me hit the tutorial button next to the start button that shows me what the game is all about? A lot of times in a game something happens and I'm like OK cool so what exactly am I supposed to do now? "Oh you dummy didn't you see that extra insert light up?" "No there are lights all over this thing!"

+I've spoke with many people about this: why is there no 3 second countdown on any games after playing movie clips etc to inform you when the ball is going back into play. This is basic design 101 at videogame college. I'm baffled this doesn't exist, or took this many years to implement, though I think I may have seen in a few games lately.

I showed off one of my games recently at a pinball expo, a guy came over with his 10 year old son who told me: "My son said you had the coolest game here." RUSH pinball is cool, I love all the old music, but little kids don't care about RUSH.

So in short: nobody should be complaining about kids when everything is hard for new players and is marketed with Bands/Movies/TV shows from 1980's. Seriously, Pokemon Pinball a kid will see the art and think it's cool just that they are playing Pokemon pinball. They do not care about RUSH. I guarantee you this experiment put the same identical game and retheme it to Pokemon. Have them play both games and I bet, even though they are the same game, they will tell you they had more fun playing the Pokemon game.

#87 2 years ago

-2
#88 2 years ago

Lol. Pinball is for grown men anyway!!! Kids should stick to video games!!

#89 2 years ago
Quoted from dpadam450:

+I've spoke with many people about this: why is there no 3 second countdown on any games after playing movie clips etc to inform you when the ball is going back into play. This is basic design 101 at videogame college. I'm baffled this doesn't exist, or took this many years to implement, though I think I may have seen in a few games lately.

If a ball is being held by a scoop or lock, there is ALWAYS a flasher & sound effect to let you know the ball is coming back. A countdown would be really patronizing and boring. Once you see a ball shoot out of a scoop once with a flasher/sound effect, that's the tutorial. You'll know from now on.

Quoted from Ceemunkey:

They just can't wait to go the next thing... Seriously I spend the whole time just resetting the games over and over again because they flip for 10 seconds and then just walk away from the machine on to the next one (while ball 1 is still in play, sometimes it hasn't even drained yet). So each machine is sat on ball 2/3 and playing the pre-ball launch music. Its nice to see the kids playing the pins, but at the same time it's infuriating!

This literally happens when adults come over and play. My parents start a 4 player game and then leave after ball 1.

#90 2 years ago

Poor bat and ball skills too. Some/most kids have no concept of how to hit a ball with a bat. The timing is just all jacked up and therefore frustrating. Most of us probably played wiffle ball and could place the ball where we wanted.

About the adults overlooking the games... for sure. Many do and don't get it. But I've had at least five moments in the last couple of months where both young and older adults carefully watch all that I'm doing in GNR to keep the balls alive and all the lights and sounds of the game. They are like "HOLY FU_K!"

#91 2 years ago
Quoted from bdw85:

If they're making that complaint about modern games I can see where they are coming from. Pinballs these days are WAY more complicated than they were when I was growing up... It's hard to compare the mid-80s solid states that I grew up with and the Sterns we have nowadays.

Yep, one reason I sold all my newer games. no one played them because they are hard and to complicated. Now I have a bunch of 90's games and everyone loves them.

#92 2 years ago
Quoted from SirMachismo:

Wise words, I squad up with my daughter and son playing Fortnite several times a week, and they “squad” up with me playing pins a couple times a week. It is delightful, I am lucky man. I am no longer a liability in Fortnite and the boy has started cracking the top ten on our two pins. We share music and memes daily and he’s is excited for us to get an insider connected pin, he loves getting achievements. What a wonderful time to be a dad and kid! I often tell them the hardships of having to wait till Saturdays to watch cartoons or worse…If you miss an episode of a tv show you never saw it again! I still don’t know how the 1985 Transfromers cartoon series ended!
I drifted a little of topic. Have a great day.

I fully agree. I squad up with my daughter, my nephews, and their friends. It is great fun. There is a lot to be said for trying to spend time with your kids on things they enjoy.

I loved it when my dad played Intellivision with me when I was a kid. In terms of fortnite, it can be hard to learn (and you will *NOT* master it) but I have found that every kid I have played with has been super patient in teaching me. In return, most of those same kids have listened to me and learned to appreciate pinball.

#93 2 years ago

Rarehero "If a ball is being held by a scoop or lock, there is ALWAYS a flasher & sound effect to let you know the ball is coming back. A countdown would be really patronizing and boring. Once you see a ball shoot out of a scoop once with a flasher/sound effect, that's the tutorial. You'll know from now on."

I don't know, I think if I have to sit through a 10 second Munsters movie clip, they ought to let me know when the ball is going to come out of a scoop at 50MPH at my flipper. Adding an extra 3 seconds seems pretty basic. It's what all the digital pinball games do when ball is being held out of play for long periods of time. Are you saying there is another audio/visual notification that the 10 second on screen events/clips/selections are over that I have been missing?

#94 2 years ago

When my daughter was growing up I had all EM's, a little later Bally SS. When she encountered her 1st "modern" game my advice was "Flip it and rip it!" A nod to Kevin Costner in "Tin Cup". Now on Father's day (she's 28 now) we go to a local place with lots of new games and flip it and rip it.

#95 2 years ago
Quoted from dpadam450:

Rarehero "If a ball is being held by a scoop or lock, there is ALWAYS a flasher & sound effect to let you know the ball is coming back. A countdown would be really patronizing and boring. Once you see a ball shoot out of a scoop once with a flasher/sound effect, that's the tutorial. You'll know from now on."
I don't know, I think if I have to sit through a 10 second Munsters movie clip, they ought to let me know when the ball is going to come out of a scoop at 50MPH at my flipper. Adding an extra 3 seconds seems pretty basic. It's what all the digital pinball games do when ball is being held out of play for long periods of time. Are you saying there is another audio/visual notification that the 10 second on screen events/clips/selections are over that I have been missing?

You can hit both flippers to cancel the clip, then it’ll flash where it’s coming out from.

#96 2 years ago

These are pretty cute:



14
#97 2 years ago

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I’m coming at the question as a game developer. I do think pinball games have a massive problem with accessibility.

If you look at PC game design around 2002, we were very adept at making games for people who were already gamers. Playtesting cohorts were comprised of hardcore gamers that understood certain concepts already.

It wasn’t until the iPhone, which wiped away most of those paradigms like being comfortable with two control sticks, that we could reset and build things that were accessible to a mass audience.

I think pinball is very much in a similar space. It’s great if you’re already a pinball player, but requires a very large investment to get comfortable.

If I were designing a pinball game, I’d drastically widen the ramps to lower the SKILL required to hit any individual shot, and emphasize the DECISION MAKING in any individual moment. I’d have a fraction of the lights and design a cleaner UI.

There are so many things about pinball we assume are required, but I’m not really sure it’s true.

#98 2 years ago

Try getting a Dialed In.
That machine has a cell phone in it and kids love that shit.

#99 2 years ago
Quoted from KingVidiot:

As someone who grew up on video games and still plays them more than pinball, let me explain something to the old farts here..

I grew up playing vids also, still play the occasional AAA here and there. But grew bored of them, it just felt like the same game in whatever genre over and over. how many iterations of call of duty do people need?

#100 2 years ago
Quoted from dpadam450:

Are you saying there is another audio/visual notification that the 10 second on screen events/clips/selections are over that I have been missing?

I’m not overly familiar with Munsters, but every game I can think of that holds the ball has some kind of “ramp up” sound & flasher effect to warn you that the ball is coming…and then a “fire” sound as the ball kicks out.

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