I post the following for information purposes. Not to say i'm better than anyone else or lesser than anyone else. I fully admit that I got carried away with the hobby, but I had fun along the way and I met some great people. I write this so others can maybe relate to the way I look at the hobby and others will offer their stories.

I started playing pinball when I was a kid. Grew up in Nevada. There were a ton of arcades and other businesses with pins. Between local businesses and casinos, I was lucky to play just about every pin ever made starting in the 70's all the way until now. Probably around 100 different pins at any given point to play during the 70's, 80's and early 90's. I remember being in the arcade when Kiss was unboxed and setup. So many others too. Even Hercules. All NIB or close to it and I couldn't get enough. I'll never forget Black Knight being unboxed and setup.

I wasn't financially able to get into owning a pin until 2003-04. That's when it started and it was a childhood dream come true. I went off the deep end. I had 43 pins at one point and I've bought and sold over 70 different pins since then. I now have ZERO pins.

The economy took me down with it and I had to do what I needed to do. Now I've recovered and I can get back into the hobby again, with the lessons I learned in the past. The hobby definitely has its ups and downs, but I'm aware of those things and so I either accept it or stay away.

Metallica LE will be my first pin in several years and i'm very excited about getting it. Don't plan on selling it, but if I do, i'll sell it for whatever I can get for it. Profit or loss, i'll be happy.

I made money on some pins and I've lost money and others I broke even. If I used the same logic as I've read about "flippers" and so forth, then I could easily apply it in reverse. So i'm not suppose to make money from the sell of a pin ? Does that mean that someone should pay me what I have into the pin so I don't lose any money ? Not logical or realistic at all. My point.. if I can lose money on a pin, then I fully have the right to profit from it also, at any time I choose to do so.

People also comment on the high prices. Prices have been going up ever since I entered the hobby. Back in 2004, I saw posts on the RGP about people screwing over other people by asking $4000 for a MM or CC. That's because they were being sold for $1500 NIB back in 1999 when WMS was closing it's pinball doors. I bought my MM for $5300 in 2005. Sold it in 2007 for $8500. Now what's the selling price ? Unfortunately, the later you enter the game, the more you will pay. The economy might take down some collector's, but at the same time, there have been more Millionaire's and billionaire's created in the last few years than ever before. Rich people like toys and the more that get exposed to the hobby, the higher prices will go and that's what has happened the last few years. Kind of a catch 22. More people getting into the hobby, which is great, but that makes demand and prices go up.

I bought 17 NIB pins from Jack. He was my main man and one of the nicest person's I've ever met in my life. Always took care of me. Bent over backwards when needed at no cost to me. Stern never cared at all to know who I was. Bad management if you ask me. Regardless that Jack was the middle man, if someone bought 17 NIB pins from my business, i'd want to know who they are. How much effort does it take to send a loyal customer a thank you card. It costs almost nothing, but makes a person know that their business is appreciated. Jack did that, but Stern didn't.

Back to high prices. Jack made it very clear when he started his company that he was going after the high end collector. (rich people). He was going to make pins that had tons of toys, shots, modes, and the rest. Load them so that collectors would have no complaints on pins lacking features or shallow rules (which started to become the norm at Stern). But... all of that would come at a price. A higher price for those pins.

After, some very lackluster pins, Stern followed suit and started making the LE's, but all at a higher price. The days of getting a NIB LOTR, TSSP, SM or anything else for $3800 were over. The Pro models are a close option for today's so called low end collectors, but the Premium and LE market will always be high priced, because they are strictly made for the high end collector (those with the money to spend).

The hobby is doing better now than at any other point I've seen it since I got involved back in 2004. More and more people are being exposed to the hobby and that will drive the business forward. Unfortunately, that could translate into even higher prices. Not just for NIB, but for restored and used pins also. Not all of them, but definitely the popular ones.

Jack will have my business again. He's earned it. WOZ would be in my plans, but I only have money for 1 pin and I choose Metallica over WOZ. I totally expect the WOZ to be much higher quality and a deeper pin, but the theme loses it for me. Metallica is another pinball dream come true to me. I just wish Jack was the one that was making it. I'm giving Stern another chance. I won't list how they let me down in the past. It's what they do now and in the future that matters now. If they fail me, they will lose my business and my references to anyone I know.

I see the Hobbit being the next pin for me. I can't imagine how great that pin will be. There is definitely more value in Jack's current prices as compared to Stern. Widebody is just the beginning. Stern has had the advantage of faster production times, but I don't mind waiting. In the meantime, i'll still be playing pins and I expect Jack's production times to speed up with each new release. Stern was very slow and producing lackluster titles when it started out, despite having many things from the Sega/Data East days already in place. Jack is starting from scratch. Give him time. Impatience is a part of the hobby. It sucks, but as they say, good things come to those that wait..... Unless your still waiting for the MM from Wayne. LOL !! I was one of them. I waited like 2 years and then asked for a refund. He sent it to me very quickly.

Well.. enough for now. Sorry for the long post. I should post this and my other post in its own instead of on this subject of someone selling their pin. Sorry if I offended anyone by anything I said. Not my intention. I'm just one person of many in this great hobby. As someone once said, can't we all just get along. LOL !!

The eventual price it will cost someone for the LE won't happen for years. The prices now and in the near future only apply for now, not 3-5 years from now.

I'll use spiderman Black as an example. I bought one NIB in 2007 for $4300 shipped. The only difference between it and the Red version is the backglass and decals, trim. Same as Metallica LE compared to premium. Nothing different on the playfield or rules, just collector LE stuff.

I sold it a couple years later for $6300.

Eventually, they went up to as high as $10k from previous posts I've read. That was HUO too, not NIB. There is a recent post of one for sale for $8200. HUO What would NIB fetch now 6 years after the release ?

If i use the same logic that I keep seeing repeated by various posts, then why in the hell would anyone pay that price for the Black version when there is literally no difference at all between it and the Red version ?

Same answer. Because it's an LE and pinball is a rich man's hobby for many people that have money that doesn't matter to them and they'll buy whatever they want with it. Same thing occurs in every other collectable hobby there is. Why would anyone pay $10k for a 10 cent stamp ? Why would anyone pay $10k for a sports trading card that was initially pennies ? Cars, antiques, artwork, etc. Most of those hobbies are made up of the so called "flippers" too. Pawn Stars, American Pickers, etc. etc. are "flippers" that love what they do. Sometimes they keep the stuff for themselves, but otherwise, they buy and sell for profit so they can keep doing what they love to do. Yes, they totally screw over people along the way that sell their stuff, but no one forces those people to sell and so no one to blame but the seller.

Anyone ever go to a Barrett Jackson car auction ? All "flippers". No one is there to lose money or break even, regardless of what they invested into their cars or what they think or give back to the hobby.

The whole argument that if you do the same thing in the pinball hobby makes you lesser of a person or hobbyist doesn't hold true when pinball is compared to every other collectable hobby there is. In many ways, pins are works of art and at the same time limited to the number produced and so the same rules apply to it whether people like it or not.

That same type of logic would also translate into saying that whoever spends the most money or whoever owns the most pins is the best and most passionate hobbyist and people that only own 1 or 2 pins are dirt. Not true at all. It is whatever each of us wants it to be depending on our lives and what we can actually do. Personally, I want 500 pins, but that isn't going to happen and that doesn't mean i'm less passionate or that I care less about the hobby.

I fully expect the Metallica LE to be considered a great and popular pin for years to come and the price it eventually will be worth won't happen for awhile. It might happen slightly later this year before Xmas, but what will a NIB or HUO LE be worth 2, 3 or 5 years from now ? Or should I say, not what will it be worth, but what will someone with plenty of money that wants one be willing to pay ?

Only time will tell. As time goes by, the supply will become more constricted than it is now or in the near future.

Just my two cents.

Ok.. once again.. Sorry for the long post. Been away for awhile and so just getting it all out. LOL !! I don't expect anyone to read all of what I wrote. It's just there for anyone that wants to read it.

I'm new on this forum and so my first question, why does it say OP up by my name ? Because I started the thread ?

Ok, thanks.

Thanks RustyLizard. I'll update my profile. I moved these posts from another thread and i'd also like to thank TigerLaw25 and fattrain for the nice comments.

In my mind, I created everything I could think of as a reason to buy another pin. LOL !!

Hi jimjim. That name makes me think of chim chim from Speed Racer. LOL !!

I use to live in the Phoenix area, but I moved here about 3 months ago to be closer to friends and family. I've always loved California (especially the bay area). I'm from Reno, originally.

Met a lot of nice guys in Phoenix. Tim Hanian, Bruce Artman, Greg Davis, Rob Steinberg, Gary Cubeta (yes, he was very nice to me.) Jim Smith. Just some of the names I can think of. Lots of other great people too.

Thank you for the invite. I appreciate it. We'll definitely have to meet sometime. I'll stay in touch and let you know when I have some free time.

LOL !! No !! Only Metallica LE for now. All I ever wanted was just 1 pin. I couldn't ask for a better theme. I'm 47 and a metal head. Iron Maiden LE would be awesome too !! Would'nt mind a dark themed, evil ass Black Sabbath pin either.

I will add this... I took a huge leap of faith when I bought the Metallica LE. I would have preferred to wait to buy one and I fully know that I could have just waited for the Premium, but I really wanted an LE. If it blows up in my face, then i'm the only one to blame, because no one forced me to buy an LE.

I have seen and played enough pins in my lifetime to know what I like and don't like when it comes to themes, looks, and layout. What I saw in the pictures of the LE satisfied me enough to go ahead and buy one.

Normally, I would worry about software updates, but I have faith in Lyman and the Metallica pin in particular, because it's such a high profile pin with the possibility of having a huge demand for it.

The unknown ingredient though is the quality of the build/design and if there will be any major flaws or issues with the game. Minor stuff I can handle, but will there be any issues that ruin the game itself and therefore ruin the reputation, value and sales of the pin ?

That remains to be seen and so my LE will remain in the box until more people have gotten it and played it and possibly expose any such major issues. They will sell more Premium's than LE's and so when people get their Premium's, we'll get a broader range of comments on any issues. My LE is shipping out July 1st and so I won't be getting it for another 3 weeks or so and that gives me more time to begin with.

I don't have a problem waiting. I had to sell my entire collection in the past, with some pins being irreplaceable and nothing i'll ever experience in the hobby will be worse than that.

Personally, I think the LE's should be made last. After the Pro's and Premium's. It makes LE buyers wait longer, but as it is right now, the LE's are the test machines. The Pro's don't count, because they don't have the same playfields and the associated extra functions, parts and mechanics as the LE's. if you want higher quality LE's, then they need to make them last.

I'm just being cautious. My pin money is much harder to acquire now and so I need to be and Stern has failed me in the past. If some unforeseen major build/design problem occurs and I need to sell it, i'll get more with it still being NIB and recoup more of my money. If nothing happens, then it will be all that much sweeter when I do open that box and push that start button for the first time.

Thank you to everyone for the comments on this thread. I appreciate your thoughts and opinions, even if they aren't the same as mine. These are just my opinions based on my experiences in the hobby. I fully understand that it can be completely the opposite for someone else and i'll gladly listen to anything someone has to say.

Very happy to hear that you love the Metallica pin. Awesome !!

I forgot to ask. Did you get an LE ?

Hi Ron,

Thanks for writing back. it's always great to hear other people's stories.

I'm happy I was able to buy the Metallica LE. I really only need 1 pin at home. I can go elsewhere to play other pins. I also was very fortunate and grateful to have all of the pins I did. I owned just about every pin I've ever wanted and so I don't need any older pins anymore. Growing up in the arcades was great too.

I've been a pc gamer for over 25 years and so that fills up my down time from pinball. After the arcades went away or downsized in the late 90's, it was actually MAME and VPMAME/Visual Pinball that re-sparked my interest in pinball back in 2003 and led me to buying my first home pin.

I really liked most of the Data East pins. JP and LW3 are a lot of fun.

Thanks again for sharing.

Thanks for all of the nice comments. I appreciate it.

I love the idea of a widebody pin. The only thing that could deter me away from The Hobbit pin is that I already owned a LOTR pin. Loved it, but maybe The Hobbit is too similar of a theme, sound, music to really spend that kind of money to buy it.

I can't wait to see what the Star Trek LE pin looks like. Absolutely love the STTNG I had, but maybe the same thing there and the fact that I more than likely won't be able to buy another NIB LE pin that soon after buying the Metallica LE.

I see posts for a Iron Maiden pin wanted by some. If it ever happened, i'd would want to make sure I was able to buy an LE. That theme and the possible artwork and music is exactly the type of pin i'm looking for. Any super hero pins don't interest me in the slightest.

I would love a horror, dark themed pin. I've been hearing that for years, but nothing happens. Stern and Jack should take polls on what collectors want. Either on here or send previous customers an email or letter with the poll or both. I think that in a poll of 10 themed pins (WOZ one of them), WOZ wouldn't finish in the top 5.

Just my opinion. I'm sure the pin will be fun and the people that bought one will love it. After all, it is a pin and it has some new features that could change future pin design for the better.

A horror/dark themed pin would more than likely finish #1. It's been way too long since we've had a pin like that. I don't count SS, MB, TAF either. I owned those, but i wouldn't consider them dark. Too many kiddy sounds. BSD is the only really dark themed pin I owned and I absolutely loved it. I really liked Frankenstein too.

It seems I will have to just hold on to my money and wait until another new pin comes out that really blows me away. Part of the problem I had in the past was liking and wanting every pin I played. LOL !!

LOL... Yes, I remember he created quite the shit storm on the rgp. He bought a couple pins from me (Champion Pub and Congo) and I bought a HUO Road Show from him. He was always really nice in person. After reading so much on the rgp, he wasn't what I expected when I met him.

I completely understand what your saying. My orders with Jack were sent to Stern and the pins were shipped directly to me from Stern. Stern had my name and address and knew I wasn't a distributor/reseller.

I was just saying that if it was my business, I would know who and where every single pin was sent to. I would keep a simple database so I would know who my customers were. I would send out not just thank you cards, but little inexpensive stuff like key chains, t-shirts, brochures, bumper stickers, magnets, etc.

The possible repeat business and word of mouth reputation is vital for any business, especially for such a small cost.

LOL !! I just started typing and the next thing I knew I was out of control and couldn't stop. Thanks for the reply.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I understand what your saying. Jack did those things and that's one of the many reasons why he earned my business. I feel that Stern should be the same. It's the smart thing to do. One reason why is, how about if the distributor sucks and actually loses business for Stern ? How does Stern reach out to that customer to know if their happy or not ? How does Stern know that one of its distributors shouldn't be one at all ?

A distributor is a representative of your product and company. Jack did his part and should be fully recognized and appreciated by Stern and I feel that he was, at least for awhile. Stern should have more of an interest in maintaining a contact with its end customers, regardless of the distributors. Not much effort at all required to do so. If it was for an inexpensive product, then I can possibly see ignoring it, but when two LE's cost the same as a new car, that extra effort should be a standard business practice, not a customer request.

Competition is good. It creates new standards and sets new rules for customer satisfaction and service. Jack created that competition and forced Stern to make changes. Stern does a lot more now to promote their product than they ever have and so hopefully that's a good sign of what's to come in the future.

Just my opinion of course. Thanks for the response.

Hope you had fun with those pins. They are both a lot of fun. Thank you for the kind comments.

Well said. LOL !!