I guess no deal is better than a new deal, but what do I know.

(Never mind I think I was misreading)

If I were PR, I'd tell mr. personality to go pound sand up his ass.

so are you conveniently not responsible for the 2 pfs I am owed from IPB?

This is a 2 way street and if you are expecting others to pay up for what you claim to be past due debt then you should also be willing to make good on the debts that are owed from the company you assumed.

I can't believe you actually think another company should show you their books from prior to you being part of any deal. WTF is that???

That's the way greed-crazed nincompoops think.

Pinball Rescue is being guarded (and smart).

They would be fools to give PPS information that could be turned against them in court- and I'm sure their legal counsel has told them to provide no further information.

Ouch.

Its a one way street all the way and a total sham. Your point hammers it home, no chance in hell you ever see those playfields, its all about collecting more cash, no matter who's involved.

Or, because Gene was an idiot, they were selling way more parts than they were telling Gene and Gene wasn't getting the commission he was supposed to be getting.

Likely, but there's a hard way and an easy way of handling things at this point in time. There is also a public relations battle being lost here.

lol, I like how PPS "asks" and Pinball Rescue "demands".

Unless you're the IRS, you have a court order, or maybe you're planning on buying them out I can't see why they would possibly want to open their books to you. If you think that's a reasonable demand (because really, that's not asking, that's demanding) then I guess I'll just disagree with you.

If you think they owe you money then invoice them off your records. If you don't have any records, well, that's kind of your problem isn't it? You bought a mess of a company, you knew that going in I'm sure.

I'm not part of some crazy lynch mob, I don't care about MMR coin mechs or anything like that, but you do look a bit like a bully here, and your explanations aren't helping. From my perspective there's now one less company making products, and and given how low the demand for them is there's not much inventive for someone else to fill that void. So we lose, and Pinball Recue loses. And since you won't see a dime from things they don't make it's hard to see how you win.

Guess I'm glad that the EMs I'm interested in are all Gottliebs, I'll continue to support Pinball Rescue's business and vote with my wallet. In the meantime maybe people can come to some reasonable agreements.

We have our own laws here that we have to abide by, PR are right in not releasing the said information.

Yeah, I don't think you can buy a companies prior assets/accounts receivables without also incurring their prior liabilities.

I'm sure PPS will get your two playfields out to you stat!

One thing I'm confused about is wasn't IPB bankrupt, and the assets bought from the trustee? What happened to the debt?

I think it's a stretch that PPS assumed all the accounts receivables and none of the liability, and how would a trustee offer that? Aren't the old liabilities left to the trustee to collect to pay off any creditors?

If the trustee was unsuccessful collecting that debt, the bankruptcy is over, and that debt is history.

"- Pinball Rescue demanded what our terms were before they would provide us with any accounting - but for us we wanted the accounting to see what scope of what they were doing to figure out our terms."

The other funny part was PPS asking for their volume to determine the "scope of the agreement". In other words they wan't to see how much they can milk out of PR based on how much they sell rather than just a fixed cost per asset like most licencors do.

Exactly.

So if they buy the IPB rights, they are only entitled to collect royalties from that point forward. The prior records of PR aren't even relevant to PPS at this point. Yet they demand to see them.

Exactly Alex.

that is one of greeds tactics... He tries to be elusive and confusing on purpose.

The ability to twist things around in his head is actually pretty messed up.
If you have not realized by now, you can't believe most of what he says.

Maybe there should be a new "IPB Back in business, are you owed something?" thread announcement. Apparently it won't matter if there are no records of your order, you can just state what it is you are owed.

Absolutely! With the heavy-handed way PPS is handling EVERYTHING, it is obvious they cannot be trusted to NOT take the information and then ask for a court judgment of what they THINK they are owed. Pinball Rescue needs to just lay low and figure out a way to sell things that PPS doesn't control.

That's what I took it as too.

Touchdown!!!

PPS doesn't have a leg to stand on. Just bluster and posturing, thinking they have the clout to beat up on little people. The more comments I read and the more I think about this, it really irks me. I am sure I've shot myself in the foot here, and when I get my MMr if there is anything wrong with it I'll probably be shit out of luck getting any reasonable help after Rick reading my posts. But hey . . . that's the risk I take. It's not very scientific of me analyzing PPS just based on all these posts, but instinct tells me I'm dealing with a company that has a 'mean spirit', and I'll stick with my negative conclusion of PPS.

I would sure hope not. Many people like to give me crap (and I'm notorious for giving it right back) but I still help each and every one of them without prejudice on their games when a problem arises. It's all part of the hobby. We're all adults; most with Type-A personalities. It just comes with the territory.

I don't see why we can't be a customer but still be free to voice our concerns about something on a forum.

All depends on who you are dealing with.

I'll still probably fix your game at an expo, even if you have tangled with me on RGP or Pinside - but others hold a grudge forever.

http://www.planetarypinball.com/2014/01/

LTG : )™
Disclaimer : I'm reasonable.

Hmm, interesting. The empire and Emperor Palpatine are coming to mind here.

I haven't been following all the PPS drama, but from a business point of view, asking for sales records before ironing out a contract is the smart way to do business.
PPS isn't in this "for the love of the game", they're in it to make a buck.

I'm not sticking up for PPS or Rick, but any Pinsiders arguing that asking for sales records was out of line, is out of their mind.

Most of us love pinball and help each other fix pins, send free parts to strangers, donate to each other's causes, give up a few hours to move a friends pin,etc. -but few of us earn a living from pinball.
That's a whole other ball of wax.

Sounds like they need to work on their PR, but not their business acumen so much.

you're exactly right.. but there needs to be some flexibilty to accomodate businesses at different levels. ( bigcorp vs hobby backyarders etc) Lets hypothesise that it was all cash dealings until now for example. No small business in their right mind would provide written retro sales data on that. It would be far smarter to draw the line and start again than make a crapfight over it. ( no idea if it was - not important - just making the point).

Totally agree.
Of course, the company that owns the licence gets to make the rules.
Not sure why they can't make a contract based on volume going forward?
Can't be that tough for PPS to have some way to monitor the website sales.

Not according to Rick. I remember a thread a while back where he said he wasn't in it for the money, that he did very well for himself financially in his 30 years working somewhere and that he's only doing this because he wants to. I'll see if I can find his exact quote

Edit: Ricks quote was 7 months ago on a thread called "I've cancelled my MMR order" page 4 and he was talking to Magic Mike
I'm not sure how to cut a quote from another thread

difference btw "asking" and making demands in order to make an agreement going forward.

If anything they fail miserably in business acumen as they went from the possibility of making some money of small run quality reproduction EM parts to:
1. Making no money
2. Pissing off lots of their current customers and potential future customers
3. Likely losing a few sales of bigger ticket items as some people are willing to actually make smart $$$ decisions and not support businesses with such poor treatment of others in our small pinball world.

They turned a potential win/win into a lose/loser.

Yes, and look at all the money PPS is making from Pinball Rescue now.

Look, we don't really know the whole story, and honestly it's not even really our business except that the parties have both dragged it out into public. But the bottom line is I don't care how or when Rick gets paid. I care about supporting businesses that provide products and services, and all I know is that there's a diminishment of that now.

I think grabbing pitchforks and trying to boycott MMR or whatever else is silly. Let's not let forum drama turn into sleepover camp. But I think it's appropriate to express disappointment. I hope both parties can find a way to work it out so we can benefit from Pinball Rescue's work and dedication.

Very good catch. IIRC, when another upstart pin company was making rounds on the lecture circuit in 2011, the Prez was going around speaking and ending his sessions with something to the effect of "I'm doing it for the love of pinball" to which the trained seals would give a standing ovation.

Please don't trouble a business tycoon with some basic understanding of bankruptcy law. I'm sure PPS has decided all the legal matters and your only choice is to do as he assumes or pound sand while waiting to get sued. From my perspective, it's just another business nitwit whose lack of ethics got him to a higher pinnacle to fall from (as evidenced by his horrible justifications above).

Like I said earlier, wait for the recalls and/or warranties on MMR. I'm sure Gary Stern won't come running out to fix the inevitable outside design issues. I don't know if it will be sad or comical to watch over $8MM in pinball dollars be flushed down the toilet if PPS closes the curtain when the money runs out.

Haaaaaaaaa! Yes, you are MORE than 'reasonable'! I forgot all about you having an 'official' affiliation with PPS. I might have softened up on my criticism had I remembered.

This is sort of funny . . . no matter where I go for 'fix' info . . . for my old pins, my WOZECLE, or my upcoming MMr . . . YOU always end up on the answer end. I go on a journey, seeking answers, it's a circle. And then, I end up meeting you in the circle for the 'Final Answer'! All together now: "May the Circle, Be Unbroken"

Yeah they are IPB now, they do have that right.

Old mate from PPS has gone all quiet now people are wanting their IPB parts now that they know the same corporation is still going.

I'm glad PPS will be making good on all the old IPB debts. That's the kind of thing that will go a LONG way to fixing his deservedly damaged reputation.

GOOD ON YOU, RICK!

PPS is making good IPB debts? Great idea IMHO and will go a long way towards smoothing things out.

edit : once again posting before coffee.

I am waiting and would love a response from Rick. Better yet, I would LOVE to get the 2 playfields I have been waiting on for over 1 year (Feb/March 2013?; I would need to look in my log for the exact date and record of the agreement).

What do you say Rick, do you want to dig through that big pile of playfields you took from IPB and send me the 2 that are rightfully mine?

PPS's preferred business practices.

Whysnow if PPS is asking Pinball Rescue to provide their books so he can see what Pinball Rescue has done in the past I think it's safe to assume that IPB (sorry PPS as "IPB is PPS") has no record of your transaction! May be best for you to dig out that paperwork and anything you have to show the transaction occurred.

Since IPB is back in bidness, perhaps an update on the Kingpin remake project is in order.

For those people interested

Gene was served a C&D from Williams a Breach of Licensing Conditions
Failure to have products approved by WMS
Trading whilst insolvent
IE nude versions of Creature Playfields was one reason.
Just because Gene had a license didn't mean he could make and sell a lot of products he did.
Genes license was terminated and in turn any 3rd parties he had agreements with.

Gene can no longer make and sell any Bally Williams Licensed Products, nor can anyone who was operating under that license, Pinball Rescue was only one of these 3rd parties.

PPS reached out to try and make some sort of arrangement,

As I was a licensee of Lucas Arts and many others we had to supply an upfront retainer and a % of every Star Wars or IJ product we sold, each qtr we had to supply sales reports and royalty payments against those sales, they were also able to audit our sales records.

In Lucas Arts case we had to pay an upfront retainer of $20,000 against future sales over a 2 year period.

So what I am saying is if Pinball rescue sell $10,000 of product a year, PPS would give them a % to work with, if it was $100,000 a year it would probably be a less %.

There is a lot of work being a Williams Licensee, each product needs approval from WMS gaming and those products are also sold by the Distributor Network saving international shipping costs for customers.

I have not seen any approved suppliers on Forums complaining about working with PPS.

There also was a ton of old films to remake a lot of old plastic sets in the IPB purchase, many of these are already in the works.

I am sure something can be worked out in private, I don't think the forum media will encourage either party to work together.

That would be really convenient if IPB "lost the paperwork" of any past orders and that is reason to just shrug their shoulders and have no responsibility, if they are taking on any past debts at all.

I get that we don't see the whole picture, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you's, but a gentler kinder way of working through the mess might be in order.

I am so glad that PPS has no right to Gottlieb products or I would have to throw in the towel. I am that 5% of the pinball population that collects EMs only. Why the TRUCK would PPS want anything to do with the 10-15 plastic sets that they sold for Klondike a machine that is over 40 years old???!! Months were spent gathering up enough people to warrant them making some plastics for this machine. They have 95% of the consumers that are foaming at the mouth for remakes of XYZ 80's and 90's Williams titles. Why mess with pointy people early 70's machines that go for 100-500 dollars? Why alienate the few people that actually collect them? PBR are hobbyist that make a few bucks for helping niche collectors out. Why TRUCK with them at all. Again PPS you have the big Angus Steaks hanging in front of you...why go after small hamburgers??!!??

One day a company or individual may decide to sell their wares (including all others IP) on anonymous marketplaces.

For anyone that was familiar with Gene and how he conducted business, they know this is most likely the case. Burden of proof will be on the customer I'm afraid.

Yeah but I am sure people, like whysnow, would gladly provide the needed paperwork to show he purchased the products, in his case playfields, but how does PPS know that they were never shipped? I mean Gene's bookkeeping was lacking, thus the reason PPS asked Pinball Rescue, so there may be no paperwork on PPS' side that shows the orders were placed or that they were shipped! Anyone that placed an order with IPB could say they never received their order and unless PPS can find something that shows it was shipped how do they know it was or wasn't!

Excellent point.