This is very sad and unfortunate news particularly for Bally & Williams owners. I am not aware of the nature of what Planetary Pinball were seeking but reading between the lines it would seem someone, in the context of recent posts in another thread, has quite a bit to answer for.

VERY disappointing news.

I have a Pinball Rescue apron decal on my Jacks Open and Stern Dracula, they look awesome.

Wonder if this is related to Phoenix Arcade stopping production of B/W cabinet artwork too....

+1

maybe i can ask the same question here without the anti-rick and wayne fanclub trashing the thread.... why was Pinball Rescue .. not going to be able to enter an agreement with planetary Pinball.?

Was/is the copyright international?

If not tell em to jump.

Im curious as well. Why weren't they able?

Lets see what Planetary Pinball have to say to Bally/Williams owners who have been denied the opportunity to purchase quality products from a highly professional & credible supplier and what immediate arrangements do Planetary Pinball have in place to fill the void.

Yeah, for all of Rick's claims that this whole thing was no big deal on another thread, this sure seems to have gone TITS UP.

Next thing you know, Metallica is gonna get pissed that people are downloading their songs off of the internet for free without paying royalties.

Darned pesky IP ownership stuff.

Except that's not really what was going on.

Nice try though.

It is pretty clear from the original post.

Like always, Rick and PPS feel completely entitled to steal other peoples IP but then send C&D for anything they feel entitled to as renters of others IP. It is sad that they are tossing around their weight rather than doing good things for the hobby with all the newly found assests.

I wish people would wake up and realize that they are doing everything they can to establish a monopoly on parts. So many good pinball parts manufacturers are now having issues and it seems pretty clear that a big part of the problem is the increased liscensing fees now that PPS can claim sole ownership of the B/W liscense.

They are quickly becoming the Walmart of our little world and want a cut of everyones pie, even the pie they previously stole from you.

I hope many of these people just push the reproductions under ground. There are many ways to continue to make a reasonable product and help keep pinball alive with not having to worry about the renter in the middle.

And you might very well be exactly right.. thats what I wanted to know from the OP without the associated fuss and drama.

If indeed you are right i'll bring a shovel and help dig.

Huh. That was unexpected.

You need to understand that PPS stepped up and purchased the rights. It is a business and an investment. If you purchased the rights to Stern would you allow others to copy and make a profit? I often do not agree with the way PPS handles situations or the way they present themselves, especially on a public forum. I really think they need to be more lenient towards people reproducing graphics and parts for Bally/Williams games. Can they not find a middle ground and ask for a royalty, until they come to the table with similar parts or graphics. It may have to do with the percentage of royalties requested and there is simply not enough in the pot for both parties. This is a tough call-protecting the interest without leaving a gap. I wanted a pair of Williams IJ decals for a machine I was going to purchase in order to justify the faded cabinet that would drive me crazy. I am now looking at alternative decal set):

Now Williams owners will be looked down on by Playmatic owners with their nice refurbished aprons.

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He gets it... This is what I was trying to work out. Are they really evil monsters? or are they just trying to run a business and get a return on the millions they spent in a world where a lot of people dont like letting anyone else make any money?

How do you make money on something that's not being sold?

I have learned that in the pinball society-nobody likes anyone who makes money related to pinball.

Thanks for your speculation that the issue might be the requirement for upfront royalties.. Thats a valid guess. Maybe its true?

The problem is that PPS seems to be VERY short-sighted and all about the quick dollar. They are doing more harm than good for the long term sustainability of our hobby and I hope they wake up sooner rather than later. My business sense tells me they are just getting the ducks in a row before they sell it off and are getting the books fluffed to make it appears better than reality. Just a guess?

I would not really say they stepped up to purchase the rights, but rather they swooped in to help beat up on an old man and then sarcastically gave him a hand and made a deal with the bank before it could all go to public auction. Imagine how great it could have been and the competition which would have resulted if all the IPB assets had been split up among many divisions rather than a single giant monopoly...

I completely agree that business needs to make money, but there is a right and wrong way to do it. Under the current regiem I think the hobby is headed for rough waters in the reproduction dept.

I agree. In fact I have seen that merely being friends with someone who makes money is a sin.

Would fragmentation help that? not really? Well it doesnt look like it did before?. Is this new 'regime' all that much different to the intent of the license anyway ( to control the IP interests of the ONE company)? Inclined to agree that it looks like rough sailing though .. absolute power and all that.

From what I read in the last thread PPS and Pinball Rescue were going to sit down and talk about striking a deal that would let PR continue making B/W parts with PPS getting a cut. Just talking to Lee, they are in business because they love pinball and to help the pinball community out - and make a few bucks along the way - they're not getting rich over this I'm sure.

I'd like to hear PPS's take on why this didn't work out for them.

This should have been an easy deal to reach.

I was mostly just making fun of Metallica and how they handled their perceived violations of their IP

It's either that or what Rick did was essentially buy the rights and looking to lower cost to make more profit in the long run. I know he's cutting out the businesses that have essentially revived his business. With that said...no one helped the wagon builder when cars came along.

For example....Films for playfields. Now he doesn't have to pay a designer to reproduce the playfield. He just needs minimal effort (sort of speak) to bring it to print. He could outsource to so said middlemen but then he would have to increase pricing to make the same cut of the pie. If you can make a playfield for $150 and sell them for $500.. you would have a lot more buyers than at $700.

I just hope PPS does this for the good of the game and brings the prices down. And that is maybe why people are jumping ship because their is no money left to be made for the guy in the middle.

With that said if PPS keeps the prices the same or increases them...well that is a totally different story.
It cost alot less to xerox a copy than make one from scratch.

P.S. I do feel bad for CPR and Pinball rescue and all the other guys that put a lot of sweat and effort in what they did to keep the game alive. But has usual....money talks.....

Yeah see, this is the part I don't get. Everyone is making it sound like Gene had all art that ever existed for Bally/Williams. I just find it hard to believe that he was hoarding enough stuff to go this far back and affect these parts. And if he DID have that much, there's no way it's been all sorted through and seen what's useable and what's not.

Well, the thing is, Pinball Rescue had a license from IPB. I'm not as up on the particulars of what happened with IPB and their Williams license, the bankruptcy, all that stuff. And it doesn't really matter.

Pinball Rescue had a license with IPB/Williams. IPB's license with Williams was revoked. That license changed hands. They got a C&D. And now this.

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out what happened here.

Two of the things that are immediately noticeable on games are bad backglasses and bad aprons. The apron is right there in front of you. And they're usually messed up. Rusty, all torn up from ops sticking their stickers on it, you name it. With these apron decals, it was a very easy fix to make a game look very presentable. These guys are the only ones out there making this particular fix possible.

Bally/Williams collectors always face an uphill battle because the parts just aren't as plentiful as they are for Gottlieb. You can get the games cheaper, they're usually not as desireable, but the flip side is, it's harder to make a nice restoration due to that. These guys were one part of making that better. Now they're out of it.

Nobody begrudges anyone their right to a profit. But you should begrudge it when they strongarm to make it. Did that happen here? Who knows? But I would guess Lee and Gordon aren't going to the bank a ton on these parts, and whatever deal was presented to them would make it where they weren't going to the bank at all.

ok so you cant get the stuff anywhere else... so then the prices have to go up to cover the license tax. ? thats business. But this is guesswork until they tell us the real reason..

I guess I picked a pretty good time to get interested in old Gottliebs! Just got an email from Pinball Rescue this morning that they shipped my Abra Ca Dabra plastics and apron.

I don't know the business discussions that went down, and I suspect none of here do either. Not that it will stop anyone from speculating. All I know is that I'm grateful to the restoration shops that help us keep the games alive, and I would hope that everyone can be smart and work things out so they can continue to support the hobby.

Hey Lars, Try to get a grip of the reality of whats being said...

oops just saw you were kidding, sorry

Thank you pinball rescue for all the fine products you have made including those Klondike plastics you sent me last year. Sorry it has to be like this.

Believe it. Anybody that had been to Gene's place knows what a world class hoarder he was. Even he didn't know what all he had.

I believe you're most likely correct and Planetary is still sorting things out. Stay tuned.

Everyone else has had a go .. so my 2c of speculation.. The real problem involved a requirement for them to effectively supply the not so popular local PPS reseller with their product then compete against him to sell it

This would sum my opinion as well.

The guys at Pinball Rescue are hobbyist. I am not sure of this, but I would suspect that they have not bought a seaside Estate on the Gold Coast, from the profits they have made from reproducing pinball stuff.

I think it would be interesting to hear the PPS side of the story.

Hope both parties can work out a solution. More parts, more pinballs.

Does PPS really need to come on here and justify themselves? The fact is they are the only licensee of WMS pinball assets. You can be sure that PPS has WMS blessing in going after companies that infringe on their stuff.

This thread should have never been started, Pinball Rescue should just have posted a blurb saying they will no longer be making anything WMS related and be done with it and move on.

You guys are so quick to judge Rick when you dont know the whole story. It sucks for everyone that they couldnt come to an agreement - in the end nobody makes money and enthusiasts dont get parts they need...

Rick has worked with many many people to get parts made - if his demands were so unreasonable, these parts would have never been made

I would imagine this has more to deal with the lawyers and the perception of protecting Intellectual Property than anything else. It is unfortunate though, I don't see this move helping the hobby at all.

-Wes

This! if you don't protect it, you could lose it. I've been through this many times with film related stuff...

Or maybe other parts had higher profit margins to be sustainable. It's a lot easier to sell a star post, or a ramp off a DMD game, than a williams plastics set from an EM game.

Any way you slice it, this just f'ing sucks until a resolution is found, and it's not going to be easy to find someone else that wants to bother with these small production, low margin items.

I do agree to protecting Intellectual Property. Trade Marks, Copyrights, are a part of life. Companies do not want inferior products in the market place. Repo parts, and cheap knock offs, fall in to the same group.

First, the term "intellectual property" itself is ambiguous and makes presumptions which are simply not true. Copyrights, patents, and trademarks are legally *very* different from physical property rights and should not be compared to them at all. Also, the differences between copyright, patent, and trademark are very different, so much so that if you read one thing about copyright, the opposite is likely to be true of a patent, etc. See: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#IntellectualProperty

The bit about "protect it or lose it" primarily applies to trademarks (and maybe to patents but it's been a while). I haven't heard of losing copyright like this, in fact quite the opposite.

This explains why PPS is so unresponsive to support emails and web queries.

One of the purposes of the corporate veil is to allow people to continue producing while there is a disagreement happening. I'd use that C&D as toilet paper and force any IP-troll threatening me to sue. I'd create another LLC and immediately ramp up production while engaging in a long and drawn out litigation (representing myself pro se) and run the ip-trolls into the financial ground until they wisely chose to ignore my endeavors.

And then when I was ready to stop selling specific items, I'd start selling kits and freely share links to artwork files on bittorrent. Obviously planetary is gambling that they will be able to monopolize the market. Good luck on that.

What this really could do in the long run is create an opportunity for a cottage industry in "hybrid-rebranding" the machines with non-trademarked plastics and BG's. Which in itself chould decimate the restoration market and destroy any value in the IP PPS has purchased in the end. There are a lot of good artists out there that could really make a lot of games better than their original artwork.

As far as the mechanical parts go, there is no trademark or patent that can be used to disallow reproduction part production. That falls under patent which has long expired for the games in question.

It's also about time for people to create derivative schematics for the gottlieb machines and freely distribute them. There is no excuse for having to pay $16 for a terrible photocopy. We need some bumps in the road like this to knock the pinball culture out of it's complacency.

What's next, is PP going to go after Virtual Pinball? Greed is an interesting motivator.

Damn... I buy these nice screen printed Bally apron decals all the time for my high end restorations. they looked beautiful after powder coating the aprons. What the hell am I going to do now? Seriously? I hate the crap that is digitally printed. SOMEONE please keep making these! ):

I got some Abra Ca Dabra plastics from Pinball rescue - great stuff, thanks.
They also had a small package of the two small plastics (right at the bottom), so I did not have to buy the complete set. There are certain palstics on a lot of pins which are "always" broken. Would be a really cool idea of PPS to have this as an alternative to a full set.

Wish I could get some plastics for Frontier, etc.... still waiting for PPS to come up with something.
But okay, that's the way it goes. I actually can't blame Rick even though I would like to...