(Topic ID: 4443)

Pinball price BUBBLE ... think it can't happen? THINK AGAIN!


By Hyperion

8 years ago



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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by jayhawkai
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    Topic poll

    “Do you think there is a Pinball Price Bubble?”

    • Yes 127 votes
      43%
    • No 108 votes
      36%
    • Maybe 51 votes
      17%
    • I don't care long as I make more $$$ 12 votes
      4%

    (298 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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    There are 153 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
    #101 7 years ago

    OK there doesn't have to be any specific example. We all have seen many bubbles burst recently. Only time will tell until then it's all speculation. Mine is it will pop and if not I really don't need some of the pins that I think are overpriced. Instead, I'll focus on new releases. To each their own it's all good as long as the flippers are flippin.

    #102 7 years ago

    If new pins start getting better than the classics I suspect some pinhead will keep a newer collection. I am going that direction now. I also have a space issue.

    #103 7 years ago
    Quoted from coasterguy:

    If new pins start getting better than the classics I suspect some pinhead will keep a newer collection.

    Look at System 11 pins and how much they were before DMD's came around. Now you can easily get those pins for under a grand.

    #104 7 years ago

    There are no pages left on this thread for me to rant.... Owell nothing important here anyways. Speculation and economics 101.

    #105 7 years ago
    Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

    Instead, I'll focus on new releases.

    TDA, I notice that you no longer list your collection. Are you in the process of restructuring it with an emphasis on newer pins? I am focusing on newer pins for my future acquisitions. SW will likely go later this year.

    #106 7 years ago

    Price bubbl;e on WH20 is recock. Just in the last couple days here.

    #107 7 years ago

    The price bubble won't entirely burst; A-list machines probably won't go back to the prices they were in, say, 2003. But there is a limit to how high they can go, because after a certain point, manufacturing reproductions becomes a no-brainer. MM is already near $15K. If it goes up to $20K, you could probably make a profit piecing them together by hand, using outside contractors for tricky stuff like custom metal parts (using CAD files). That demand isn't just going to sit there forever; it will be met one way or the other. That's where pinball machines are different from baseball cards and other collectibles. People who want a player's rookie card want the original card that was made back then, even though producing a perfect reproduction would be relatively easy and cheap. They care about provenance. I don't see any evidence that most pinball aficionados care about this, considering the number of mods, aftermarket PCB replacements, reproduction decals and playfields, and other changes made to games. A MM using the exact same parts as the original would fetch the same price; no one would care that it happened to be assembled in 2013 instead of 1997. And increasing the supply would eventually drive down the price to sane levels.

    Games with licensed themes are going to be harder to commercially reproduce because of legal red tape, as are very complicated games with lots of toys. TZ and STTNG would be a real challenge because they fit both categories. And they're also not quite so insanely expensive yet. Monster Bash, though, is getting so high it might be worth it.

    People who think pinball machines won't be reproduced now because they haven't been in the past are forgetting just how new today's prices are. $10K-$15K MM is a very recent phenomenon. We've seen prices on AFM and WH2O skyrocket just in the past few months. Reproducing machines didn't make sense when MM was the most expensive at $5K-$6K and most other A-list titles were near the $3K mark. But it is now starting to. That market demand will not remain unfulfilled indefinitely.

    #108 7 years ago
    Quoted from gambit3113:

    Now, this response really does end the credibility of the theory, doesn't it? Don't nitpick "specific things about those examples"?? Like how those examples are completely poor examples and not analogous at all because of the mass production and collapse of value due to overpopulation? No, I wouldn't say that I am trying to skew the argument by nitpicking. I am merely pointing put that, unlike when everyone and their kid brother had 14 issues of Spawn #1 and were told by Wizard that they were each worth $40, or when everyone had four pages of Bo Jackson Black and White Score cards and were told by Beckett that they were each worth $50, not everyone has an MM. Other hobbies were falsely inflated through hype and marketing B.S., and the house of card collapsed when everyone realized that there was no scarcity to drive value. Pinball machines are inflated because people with money are willing to part with their money to buy something that is getting older and decreasingly found on the market.

    I didn't say you couldn't nitpick, just that you're not seeing the forest nitpicking the trees. I don't even disagree with you, well...mostly, on the quantity issue you're ranting about. I also don't really need your approval of "credibility", whoever you think you are, when my point is backed up by the market nature of every hobby...well...ever.

    You wanna calm down and shake hands or still rant?

    #109 7 years ago

    I'm with those who pointed out that prices will drop in 10-20 years when the 50+ age range of collectors starts to downsize, move to retirement homes or disappear. How many people do you know with 10-50 machines in their basements. Yes, they aren't all the A list titles but at some point these machines will reach the for sale market.

    As for the next year or two... well as everyone has said "supply & demand." People tell me that "blah, blah" game I like costs $4,000 now. I just point out "well I'm not buying it for that." Eventually someone will though - currently.

    This is only my third year in the hobby. I have noted prices seem to drop towards the end of the year and then tick back up during the first quarter of the next year (tax return time). The problem (from a buyer's perspective) is that the 4Q downturn has been surpassed by the ensuing uptick of the 1Q.

    #110 7 years ago
    Quoted from JDub1006:

    guess I buy games to play them and have fun...if they go up in value great, if they lose all value..thats cool. I just want to play pinball.

    I agree, my pinball machines are for my entertainment and I hope they retain some value but if they don't , I will still enjoy them. Just wish i had more room.

    #111 7 years ago
    Quoted from raddroxx:

    Only way pin prices are going down is for all us old collectors to pass away and our kids put them out on the curb.

    Yep, what he said. Supply and demand rules.

    #112 7 years ago
    Quoted from txstargazer3:

    The_Dude_Abides said:Instead, I'll focus on new releases.
    TDA, I notice that you no longer list your collection. Are you in the process of restructuring it with an emphasis on newer pins? I am focusing on newer pins for my future acquisitions. SW will likely go later this year.

    Yes definitely trying to add a bit to the collection. I will likely be buying new or newer from here on out unless I can get TOTAN back at a decent price (not very likely right now) or prices decrease a bit. Next addition will most likely be Predator then I will be saving to add another as soon as I can. I see you are getting WOZ you must be pretty damn excited congrats!

    #113 7 years ago
    Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

    I see you are getting WOZ you must be pretty damn excited congrats!

    Counting the days until WOZ ECLE #825!

    #114 7 years ago
    Quoted from Stack15:

    I'm with those who pointed out that prices will drop in 10-20 years when the 50+ age range of collectors starts to downsize, move to retirement homes or disappear. How many people do you know with 10-50 machines in their basements.

    This is most logical reason for a price decrease IMO.

    #115 7 years ago

    A home is an investment, for the most part. Lots of people were just buying them for rentals and to re-sell at a much higher price later. I don't know anyone that's buying pins right now just for the hopes of re-selling at a higher price later.

    Pins are high right now because new people have entered our hobby and they are impatient.. they want the best titles NOW and are willing to pay the high price. I've waited a year or two to buy some titles, and happily did it. Some of the new guys are just throwing the ridiculous cash out so they can have instant gratification. Sellers have noticed this and they are thinking "hell, if someone will give me "X" for this pin, which is way more than I paid for it, then I'll sell it. Buyers are putting out the big cash. I kind of think it's funny when I see a newb declare that they have been looking for one of the top titles "for a whole month!". They want it now, and have driven the market up because of that.

    I think the market will level off, mainly because we have all kinds of new people joining the hobby and the demand will always be there. The new Sterns and JJP's are very nice, but there is no substitute for the classics- they are timeless and have stood the test of time. I don't see a "bubble" bursting. I think this is the guys that want the top titles dreaming about everyone else that has them losing their butt. I haven't been able to afford the big titles, and probably won't be able to at todays prices, but I'm realistic that they aren't going to get cheap in the future. I'm lucky enough, though, that had several pins in my collection that I bought years ago that have gone up, so trade value is what has saved me.

    #116 7 years ago

    No bubble.Think about this:Stern has had a decade to "turn" people away from older games and has been unable to do it.It's those games(90s B/W games)that have seen the biggest increase in price.If the bubble was there and going to burst you would think it would have happened already.
    Real Life Example:In 2006 I got a routed MM for 6K.My friend,who is an op in NYC, said I was crazy and he would wait for one to come around at a better price.A week later we're at Allentown and there are 2 AFMs there;one for 3800;one for 3500.He passes on both and buys an Indy 500 because"its under 3K".To this day he has neither title and is now priced out pretty much unless he spends a bunch and puts it in his house.6 years since I got my MM and prices keep going up.I see no bubble unless JJP has several hit games and collectors/ops "need" to own them.One game is not gonna do it,no matter how spectacular.Why do I say *several* games?Because Stern couldn't burst the bubble with SM and LOTR.2 hit,A-list games that didn't effect any other A list game's price.Scott

    #117 7 years ago

    Does anyone that thinks the bubble burst is eminent want to actually put some money where their mouth is?

    I would bet cold hard cash that we will not see the likes of $6000 MMs as standard market price in the next year. next 2 years, next 3 years, etc...

    Anyone?

    #118 7 years ago

    When all of us collectors get old and move to nursing homes, do you think our kids will REALLY be that interested in keeping our $7-10k machines instead of selling them? That's where the 'bubble' bursts. Supply will rise significantly (so many of us fit into 1 of 2 specific demographics), Demand will wane (We will be too old to read Craigslist, ebay, etc), and prices will drop.

    Until then, prices for A-list, good games will continue to rise. Why? Because we all make more money and have bigger houses and we are crazy people that can't just have 1 pin, we have to have them all...

    #119 7 years ago

    Look at it like this....have hot rod prices have come down? How about guns?
    People justify their hobby. % wise it may come down if the job market doesnt straighten up, but if we stay as is or better prices will stay strong.
    If any drop it will be the "b" titles. Face it there are more people getting in than getting out and fewer are stored in large wearhouses waiting to be found.

    Just this week I had solid offers on two of my machines.
    I passed. The same pins could have been had for 20% less than the offer just 8 months ago. After researching prices it would take 20% more for me to let them go. Nice machines are harder to find and HUO pins are commanding more and more money.

    #120 7 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    I think there are two generations right now vying for pins, which are driving demand.
    Boomers, who are late middle age or retiring. Their friends bought Harleys and they bought pins.
    Gen-x grew up in the last hurrah of the arcades, and the last heyday of pinball. Now Gen-x is buying houses, raising families and wondering what to do with the basement.
    Neither generation is going away anytime soon so I think the collector market will be around for another couple decades before pinball becomes the next pitch 'n bat. One caveat, though, is if some miraculous "game changer" occurs in pinball, making previous games less valuable.

    In my opinion....His opinion

    #121 7 years ago

    Yesterday a friend of mine got a ridiculous offer out of the blue on his AFM and sold it! He had previously said he would never sell. So there are collectors selling their top titles simply because of the prices currently being paid.

    I personally will still keep my AFM because it's the game that gets the most play in my lineup. At this moment I also wouldn't have anything else to apply the crazy money towards other than more pinball machines, so why bother if it's one of my favs?

    #122 7 years ago
    Quoted from copperpot:

    When all of us collectors get old and move to nursing homes, do you think our kids will REALLY be that interested in keeping our $7-10k machines instead of selling them? That's where the 'bubble' bursts. Supply will rise significantly (so many of us fit into 1 of 2 specific demographics), Demand will wane (We will be too old to read Craigslist, ebay, etc), and prices will drop.
    Until then, prices for A-list, good games will continue to rise. Why? Because we all make more money and have bigger houses and we are crazy people that can't just have 1 pin, we have to have them all...

    I think my kids will keep a couple because it's now part of their childhood and our family history. But not all of them. And they'll need to find a pin technician because I've definitely handed them no such skills. But generally agree with the observations about demographic impacts on prices. Rising now as 30 somethings enter hobby -- potential big drop as current 50 somethings downsize to retirement living. Long live rock.

    #123 7 years ago

    Good luck to all the "pin investors"! Just kidding, I really hope your "A listers" keep going up and up forever....it already has created great competition and brought pinball to a new level....a better level.....serving the high end home use market will just lead to better and better pins...

    7055867.jpg

    #124 7 years ago
    Quoted from gambit3113:

    or when everyone had four pages of Bo Jackson Black and White Score cards and were told by Beckett that they were each worth $50, not everyone has an MM. Other hobbies were falsely inflated through hype and marketing B.S., and the house of card collapsed when everyone realized that there was no scarcity to drive value.

    G, I have been a long term collector of "graded" vintage basketball cards 48 Bowman, 57 Topps and 61 Fleer and its a market where "condition' and "grade" drives the price....

    So scarcity and condition are the issues....I might have to pay $1,000 for an Al Attles in PSA graded 8 condition because there are only 35 or so in that condition...that's "scarcity"....I have a big collection of PSA 9's that I've paid thousands for, single digit population...there are cycles when people move in and move out of the hobby that seems to drive the trends of pricing, at times demand gets so high it creates insane bidding wars for the card you want the grade you want....other times, like last year, you got to buy lower as some people with large collections exited the market....

    When and if blocks of people like myself, along with all the other factors decide to get out of the pin "collector"/investment market then prices could cycle back down....you could have people that stop "financing" pins for purchase and those that get frustrated that they can't flip these pins and make a quick buck or that its too risky to do a high end restoration and know they will recoup costs....

    Of the top 4 rated pins, like that means anything.....

    MM 4,400 made
    TZ 15,200 made
    AFM and MB 3500 made

    Anybody will always be able to buy any one of these pins whenever they want.....the prices will fluctuate in cycles, simple as that...

    And even though there are only 124 BHZA being produced at least a few of those will be available each year for purchase, or maybe more...

    The thing I love personally about pins is you get to play them and have fun! with cards, the chase and looking at them is all there is in the enjoyment...

    1 year later
    #125 5 years ago

    So I realize this is resurrecting an ancient (2 year old) thread, but I thought this post was extremely interesting:

    Quoted from JDG1980:

    The price bubble won't entirely burst; A-list machines probably won't go back to the prices they were in, say, 2003. But there is a limit to how high they can go, because after a certain point, manufacturing reproductions becomes a no-brainer. MM is already near $15K. If it goes up to $20K, you could probably make a profit piecing them together by hand, using outside contractors for tricky stuff like custom metal parts (using CAD files). That demand isn't just going to sit there forever; it will be met one way or the other.
    ...
    Reproducing machines didn't make sense when MM was the most expensive at $5K-$6K and most other A-list titles were near the $3K mark. But it is now starting to. That market demand will not remain unfulfilled indefinitely.

    I was knocked over by how spot-on this individual was now that MMr is happening.

    I don't really think there is a true bubble in this hobby, there are simply too many upward and downward forces acting on it. MMr really shows that there is a limit to how much of a feed-back loop the market can sustain. Other things act as buffers--collectors and flippers prevent the market from changing too quickly, while players keep things from settling to a standstill. But as far as (very) long term prices are concerned--I left my crystal ball at home.

    #126 5 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    G, I have been a long term collector of "graded" vintage basketball cards 48 Bowman, 57 Topps and 61 Fleer and its a market where "condition' and "grade" drives the price....
    So scarcity and condition are the issues....I might have to pay $1,000 for an Al Attles in PSA graded 8 condition because there are only 35 or so in that condition...that's "scarcity"....I have a big collection of PSA 9's that I've paid thousands for, single digit population...there are cycles when people move in and move out of the hobby that seems to drive the trends of pricing, at times demand gets so high it creates insane bidding wars for the card you want the grade you want....other times, like last year, you got to buy lower as some people with large collections ..

    Wow - surprised to see another vintage Basketball collector here on Pinside. I never did the graded card thing though. I finished off the 48 Bowman, 57 Topps and 61 Fleer sets back about 25 years ago. Mine range all over the board for condition and it was actually quite challenging to assemble the sets especially the 48's since these were the days before you just looked on the Internet to find what you needed - took me about 5 years to nail down all the 48's.

    ScottinSGFNY

    #127 5 years ago

    Pinball like anything is a commodity,
    supply/demand and it's still in demand.

    The market for pinball isn't just pinside or avid collectors in America
    it's new buyers, people with cash to spend that's not do or die and international.

    The well is drying up on games to get from operators to repair/shop out/restore
    not completely, but when it does the prices will reflect.

    Most people that buy pinball machines can afford them (with ease)
    so it's not like a 2nd car with a loan on it or
    a house to big for their income once they get hired or laid off.
    (P.s... nobody "loses" their house, they couldn't afford it)

    Basically:
    Buy the games you truly want at prices you're happy with and no matter what
    you're playing the pinball commodity market whether your aware of it or not.

    #128 5 years ago

    Good, I would like a Centaur for under $1,000, a Tron for under $2,500 and a CV for under $3,000. Please send all sale info to PEN on pinside.

    #129 5 years ago

    I think a lot of it came out of the internet assistance in the last 5-6 years. Craigslist (kijiji here in Canada) and ebay have really enabled not only people that were searching forever but knew of few places to look, together with people that wanted to sell or had barns full, but ran into the same problem.

    There was so much movement for a while, and now that height of that has gone due to next to no supply. I find now machine transactions to be very small to what they were. People scour these sites, but all you’ll find for the most part are overpriced machines, and even those sell pretty well. In Toronto on kijiji, Pinball is the second most searched item – above i-anything.

    Btw, say what you want about the bs involved with CL/kijiji, but this has meant a lot of many of us collectors, and has also contributed to so many other things out there going to someone instead of in a landfill.

    As for the bubble, I say this every time: we made it through a bad recession and saw the largest increase in people getting into this, and a huge price incline – did anything else out there do that during the recession? There are also lots of new people getting into this that are surprisingly young.

    RGP has people crying about the pinball sky falling since b/w closed, and it’s done nothing but rise and get larger, through the dark days of not knowing if even rubbers would be produced by anyone, to the cusp of Stern appearing to be on their last legs, and making stripped down machines no home user wanted to purchase, and now, at the point we are at now, more manufactures seen since the 70s (albeit small runs in most cases) and huge prices and no supply, this question comes up again?

    There will be no bubble. If anyone wants to get out, their stock gets sucked up in days. I bet I could liquidate most of my machines in an afternoon if I so desired. Name anything else you could do that with.

    -1
    #130 5 years ago

    B/W games from the 90's will drop in price, sorry but for me they feel dated next to STLE, Ironman or Tron, AC/DC, and Metallica. The next Stern's I think will only be better and let's not forget The Hobbit on the horizon and Predator, could be just me but I don't see myself ever buying older pins again.

    #131 5 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    B/W games from the 90's will drop in price, sorry but for me they feel dated next to STLE, Ironman or Tron, AC/DC, and Metallica. The next Stern's I think will only be better and let's not forget The Hobbit on the horizon and Predator, could be just me but I don't see myself ever buying older pins again.

    I can see this happening for some of the 90's A-list fan layout games, but I think B-list B/W games and System 11 games will continue to go up in value as newer people in the hobby finally get a chance to play these games and figure out that there are fun games that don't cost $6K or more. I love a lot of the newer Stern games but after you get more than 5 or 6 of them in your line-up they start to all feel the same. Yes, the rule-sets in modern games is what sets them apart but there isn't a lot of creativity when it comes to the layouts. I think that as collector's are in the hobby longer that they'll feel the desire to diversify their line-up with a mix of games from different generations. I wouldn't want a collection based on just WPC games or just Stern games, or just System 11, etc. I'd rather have a mix of different games from all generations of pinball that I enjoy and I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

    #132 5 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    B/W games from the 90's will drop in price, sorry but for me they feel dated next to STLE, Ironman or Tron, AC/DC, and Metallica. The next Stern's I think will only be better and let's not forget The Hobbit on the horizon and Predator, could be just me but I don't see myself ever buying older pins again.

    Disagree. Stern still isn't putting out anything as elaborate or entertaining as the 90s B/W titles, and when you put a GI OCD and LED OCD into a clean B/W, it fits right in looks-wise with Stern's latest games. That's not a knock on Stern games, I like them, but they are still a bit stripped down physically compared to B/W's best games. The Sterns have better lighting to be sure, but there are mods available to bring the old classics almost up to that level.

    #133 5 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    Disagree. Stern still isn't putting out anything as elaborate or entertaining as the 90s B/W titles, and when you put a GI OCD and LED OCD into a clean B/W, it fits right in looks-wise with Stern's latest games. That's not a knock on Stern games, I like them, but they are still a bit stripped down physically compared to B/W's best games. The Sterns have better lighting to be sure, but there are mods available to bring the old classics almost up to that level.

    Totally agree! The main thing (IMHO) I think Stern was missing (until Metallica) was the classic hand drawn artwork.

    #134 5 years ago

    Agree with treveism. It seems to me that all the top dogs 9B/W A listers) have dropped in value recently, while the cheaper pins have held steady or only dropped slightly during the current drop back to reality.

    I have recently bought more solidstate stuff (BK2K, TX-sector, RollerGames) and have not been as interested in the more expensive DMD titles.

    #135 5 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    With NIB pins from Stern coming in at $5500 (LE), and with JJP selling WoZ at $6500, I don't know that prices of used pins are going to come down anytime soon.

    Where's that darn time machine...

    #136 5 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    B/W games from the 90's will drop in price

    I agree with this statement because the A list titles from the era have been dropping.

    Quoted from MikeS:

    I can see this happening for some of the 90's A-list fan layout games, but I think B-list B/W games and System 11 games will continue to go up in value as newer people in the hobby finally get a chance to play these games and figure out that there are fun games that don't cost $6K or more. I love a lot of the newer Stern games but after you get more than 5 or 6 of them in your line-up they start to all feel the same. Yes, the rule-sets in modern games is what sets them apart but there isn't a lot of creativity when it comes to the layouts. I think that as collector's are in the hobby longer that they'll feel the desire to diversify their line-up with a mix of games from different generations. I wouldn't want a collection based on just WPC games or just Stern games, or just System 11, etc. I'd rather have a mix of different games from all generations of pinball that I enjoy and I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

    Agree totally with this.

    #137 5 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfidel:

    I agree with this statement because the A list titles from the era have been dropping.

    Agree totally with this.

    maybe we should define "A list". there have been drops in prices from MM, MB, AFM i think mostly due to the threat of a remake (although Stern upping its game has probably had some effect too).

    i don't follow the market on a lot of pins since i don't buy or sell many games, but i see STTNG going for pretty much the same price it was going for last year (when i bought mine), and Funhouse (the other B/W i own) seems to be on the rise if anything. maybe those are considered "B" titles, though.

    #138 5 years ago
    Quoted from Don1:

    Where's that darn Time Machine...

    lol no kidding!

    That was posted 2 years and 9 months ago. It's also a reminder of how Stern followed JJP's lead in terms of raising prices.

    #139 5 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    maybe we should define "A list". there have been drops in prices from MM, MB, AFM i think mostly due to the threat of a remake (although Stern upping its game has probably had some effect too).
    i don't follow the market on a lot of pins since i don't buy or sell many games, but i see STTNG going for pretty much the same price it was going for last year (when i bought mine), and Funhouse (the other B/W i own) seems to be on the rise if anything. maybe those considered "B" titles, though.

    I would define A list WPC games as anything that routinely sells for $5K or more in average condition. I think these are the games that risk the biggest threat of losing value in the future because of the number of "new" games coming into the market at this price point or higher. Collector's aren't going to sell a $1.5K DM or $2K Flintstones to pay for a $8K Hobbit, they are most likely going to sell off a higher valued game to help pay for it. There are a ton of new games coming out at $5K plus but no new games being released at sub $2.5K prices which is why I think the lower valued "B" games will hold their value or even go up slightly.

    #140 5 years ago

    I think titles from the late 80's through the 90's will hold their current values and the good condition ones will continue to command good coin. It's a simple supply and demand situation. More folks that played those games as kids are finally getting to the point in their life when they can buy games...and the number of games available is declining. And, as treveism points out, these are the titles that are "affordable."

    This isn't a bad thing. Of course it's bad for all of us because we'd all like to be buying and selling pins for $350-$1200. But, the more folks that get into the hobby means that pinball survives and the new companies will still make new games.

    #141 5 years ago

    I'm new to this hobby/collector thing myself. My interest in WW bought me to this site as I now have the means to afford a couple of machines.

    Based on my own very limited experience, so called B-list games are where it's at. They represent the biggest bang for your buck IMO and after I started seeing some crazy prices for even B-list WPC/Bally games, I started looking towards DE/Sega, Capcom, and Gottleib. All the sub $2K prices for DMD WPC/Bally are over in my area it appears unless it's in really rough shape. While they may certainly be the cat's tits, as someone who only has so much disposable income for another hobby (I build and fly RC planes and helis), I feel as though I'd rather have 2 games by someone else than just one by Williams. I've talked to a few others and they feel the same.

    Bubble? Probably not, more just cyclical of people entering/leaving the hobby. I will say, if Stern and JJP and the others keep raising their prices to that of small cars, they can kiss their collective arses goodbye long term. There are tons more things I could drop $7K+ on than a game that gets played at most, a few plays a day. Hobbies ain't cheap, but that doesn't mean they have to be ridiculous as well.

    These are just my opinions of course.

    #142 5 years ago
    Quoted from derek533:

    I will say, if Stern and JJP and the others keep raising their prices to that of small cars, they can kiss their collective arses goodbye long term. There are tons more things I could drop $7K+ on than a game that gets played at most, a few plays a day.

    i generally agree, but the cheapest new car for sale in America is $14,000, not $7000.

    JJP and Stern's LEs are obviously courting a high-end home user market, but Stern is at least still making $4500 pins.

    by the way i checked an online inflation calculator, and for perspective:
    $4500 today is the same as:
    $3500 in 2004
    $2800 in 1994
    $1800 in 1984

    #143 5 years ago
    Quoted from HighProtein:

    Pinball like anything is a commodity,
    supply/demand and it's still in demand.

    actually, it isn't a commodity... not even close...

    a "commodity" has a very specific definition, and it does not apply to pinball machines... unless you are taking the position that it does not matter what manufacturer a machine comes from, and that all machines are the same...

    #144 5 years ago
    Quoted from ScottinSGFNY:

    Wow - surprised to see another vintage Basketball collector here on Pinside. I never did the graded card thing though. I finished off the 48 Bowman, 57 Topps and 61 Fleer sets back about 25 years ago. Mine range all over the board for condition and it was actually quite challenging to assemble the sets especially the 48's since these were the days before you just looked on the Internet to find what you needed - took me about 5 years to nail down all the 48's.
    ScottinSGFNY

    Yeah Scott, those sets are really challenging to complete! I picked up a lot of 57's about 15 years ago, there was a guy out of Houston running around shows selling off a vending box find. It was unbelievable to see so many multiples of cards like Bill Russell in every type of centering you could imagine, all pack fresh mint!

    My favorite is the 61 fleer and now the 71 ABA set in high grade. My rarest could be the 48 Bowman grey front with the movie star misprints on the back.

    #145 5 years ago

    The other thing that helps stabalize B/W titles are that parts are readily available for many of them.

    I am very aware that it is easier to work on B/W titles so for the longest time I have steered away from anything else. As my confidence has grown and parts hoarding has gotten worse I have branched out to a select few other games in the GTB lineup.

    #146 5 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    B/W games from the 90's will drop in price, sorry but for me they feel dated next to STLE, Ironman or Tron, AC/DC, and Metallica. The next Stern's I think will only be better and let's not forget The Hobbit on the horizon and Predator, could be just me but I don't see myself ever buying older pins again.

    Disagree. Don't confuse "dated" with "having incandescent bulbs instead of bright, cheap LEDs." Because that is the only "newer-looking" feature on current Stern pins. OTOH, the dated DMD display is the same, basic mechs have not changed. But most mid-late 90's pins had a lot more interesting stuff in the game, real artwork, quirky playfield layouts, etc., things that most recent Stern games lack. Now, stuff like WOZ/Hobbit, JPOP games, etc. really do look more advanced, making even current Stern games look dated. (Don't be fooled by a bunch of bright LEDs.)

    Then again, I still love to play EMs and SS games too, and think that many of those have as much pinball fun as any newer game.

    #147 5 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    The other thing that helps stabalize B/W titles are that parts are readily available for many of them.

    great point

    #148 5 years ago
    Quoted from derek533:

    Hobbies ain't cheap, but that doesn't mean they have to be ridiculous as well.

    I agree with this statement.

    BUT with pinball If you buy a game at 7k (just throwing this out there). Keep it for 2 years you still have a good shot of getting at least 5.5k back. So the hobby only cost you 1.5k. Now if you were luck and got in on a good one (like Tron LE just to name one really quick) you would come out with much more money when you decide to sell it, so now you’re up. In the long run pinball for me has been free. Free by the means of money into the hobby to money out (selling a pin) or liquidation ones collection. This hobby has cost me nothing. I will give you examples. I bought a LOTR that was on RT 1 year. Was in great shape (less than 1k plays on it). Sold it last year. Yes im up a lot on that. I bought a tron pro NIB First run with Mods and sold that a few months back. UP on that also. Bought a T2 and my girls were scared so I sold in in <1month. Money lost was travel expenses.

    Most of us can say the same. Im sure. And yes its not cheap to get into but in the long run it dont cost much if anything if you decide to get out and liquidate.

    #149 5 years ago
    Quoted from 6S3NC3:

    BUT with pinball If you buy a game at 7k (just throwing this out there). Keep it for 2 years you still have a good shot of getting at least 5.5k back. So the hobby only cost you 1.5k.

    Plus you can enjoy it year round almost everyday and without getting smacked with personal property taxes for owning it. At least that's the case in these parts. Can't say the same for boats, RVs, and motorcycles.

    1 year later
    #150 4 years ago

    I just found this topic... it's old and provides prospective that is now 4 years old! Bump.... update opinions now! Interesting topic for sure.

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