This thread is to discuss the very notion of opinions.

It’s very easy to say, “Everybody is entitled to their opinion”. “It’s a PERSONAL opinion, and therefor it can’t be wrong?!”. That’s incorrect. Some things are objectively wrong.

I suppose I’m trying to get to the heart of “Opinions” versus “Vendettas”.

I’m trying to point out that the broken record of Stern bashing or JJP bashing is really dragging this place down. I guess that’s news to exactly nobody!!

What I was trying to suggest is that there is a ever rising wave of negativity. It seems the policy is, If you don’t have anything nice to say, then say it 10 different way, 20 times in a row. That sucks.

There is NOTHING wrong with criticism, but the bashing that goes on here is just silly. It’s unhealthy too.

What I’m suggesting to the community as a whole is to take a step back and think about what you’re actually SAYING.

TNA was the example I used to illustrate my point, and I stand behind it.

I don’t care if you don’t want to own that pin, or if it’s not your favourite machine... but to call it garbage, or bad “value”, or “another lame Spooky garage project” is OBJECTIVELY wrong. It’s not SUBjectively wrong... its about causing a stir on a forum. It’s about bashing a company. It’s about making fun of another pinballer... but it’s not about pinball.

I’m suggesting that perhaps Pinsiders could take a second to examine their motivations, and consider what they bring to the conversation.

I’m trying to elevate the conversation, not drag it down.

I’m also not trying to stop anybody from saying anything negative, I’m merely asking the question, “Is your negativity about Pinball, or is it about something else?!”

For example... I don’t like Addam’s Family. I never have. I don’t want one. I don’t care about that game.

I have never gone to the Adams Family club thread, and tried to convince anybody that the game sucks. Not just because it’s my OPINION. Because I KNOW that just because I don’t like the game... that doesn’t mean it sucks. It doesn’t mean I need to convince anybody they are an idiot for liking something I don’t like.

I understand that objectively, Addams Family is good pinball. I just don’t like it. I would never say it’s BAD pinball just because I don’t like it.

That’s what I’m getting at.

Why do people spend time on the Facebook pages of bands they do not enjoy, telling everybody the band sucks??!! That is a serious problem with the internet. People live to rile others. They troll and they revel in their discord. Their anonymity allows it to perpetuate. It’s lame.

The internet has given everybody a voice. That democratization is a great thing in some respects, but in practicality, you end up giving all the village idiots megaphones.

I’m not advocating for harmony, or blind loyalty. I’m pushing for COMMUNITY.

Maybe it’s simply too much to expect, but I’ve been around here long enough to sense the downward spiral. I don’t want Pinside to go the way of RGB and have everybody reasonable abandon it in search of a healthier meeting place.

I suppose it depends on your outlook. I’m not trying to save the internet.

I’m just wishing that a tiny part of the internet where people supposedly gather because they enjoy the same thing wasn’t so toxic and unfriendly.

I used to be way more engaged here. I’m drifting away because I find it more and more of a drag.

You could say, “Fine, if you don’t like it here then leave. Don’t be so dramatic about it”

Or you could say, “He’s a thoughtful person, and appears to add to the discussion and to the community... I don’t contribute to reasonable people abandoning this place”

I’m personally spending way more time in a group chat of friends. We talk pinball 24/7, and nobody spends time here. This is a group of hardcore collectors. Pinball maniacs. We all eat, sleep and breathe pinball... but nobody can stand the world’s largest pinball site?! That’s a problem. Is it wrong to attempt to address a problem?!

Perhaps it’s naive. Perhaps it’s futile. I thought it was worth raising the discussion though.

I also know I could avoid most of the drama by avoiding the new pin threads. However, that’s the pinball I’m most interested in!

Pinside is full of incredibly helpful information. There are community members who do nothing BUT contribute to the knowledge base, and make the community better.

I want to enjoy this place more, and be a part of the discussion here, so I’m trying to address the things that bum me out.

That’s all.

Thanks for the input robin

It’s not a pinball problem, it’s not a Pinside Problem. It’s an internet problem.

Anonymity, or the close approximation of it is the problem.

People say things here they would NEVER say to anybody’s face. It makes them feel badass or something. It’s gross.

Real Life:

Person A “Want to play my pinball machines?”
Person B “Sure! I love pinball!”

Internet

Person A “Want to play my pinball machines?”
Person B “Dude, it looks like a clown had diarrhea on your playfields. You’re an idiot for spending so much money on BM66. I will never buy a NIB Stern. WOZ sucks.”

Real Life

Person A “I’d like to introduce you to John Borg”

Person B “Wow. Pleasure to meet you John. I’m a big fan of many of your games. Would you mind signing my MET translite?!”

Internet

Person A “I’d like to introduce you to John Borg”

Person B “Borg is a fu$&ing hack recycling ideas on every pin. He hasn’t made anything good since Tron... which also sucks btw. I wouldn’t piss on him if he wasn’t on fire.”

Real Life

Person A “Dude, it’s really not cool to SAY that.”
Person B “Oh sorry, my bad. I hadn’t considered that. I meant no offence by it. I get it. I’ll stop saying it.”

Internet

Person A “Dude, it’s really not cool to SAY that.”
Person B “Lighten up Snowflake!”
Person C “Bunchnof Candy-Assed SJWs around here trying to take the balls out of my man cave. F#%k ‘em if they can’t take a joke”
Person D “They said the same thing in a thread 10 months ago. Go get your skirt dry cleaned, Nancy! Let the Men discuss this”

What gets said here would rarely be said in person. It just wouldn’t be socially acceptable to be so negative. Nobody would put up with it. So, why is it ok here?!

Yes. That’s why I said Anonymity or the close approximation of it.

Loads of people are on Facebook under pseudonyms, or simply don’t feel the social responsibility of an actual encounter. They see their “opinion” come up on the screen with just as much importance as everybody else’s. they don’t consider the effect at all. This doesn’t occur in real life.

I have literally never had a bad personal experience in the hobby. Tournaments, shows, purchases, sales, Barcades, conversations etc etc. In 20 plus years of Pinball collecting, Nobody has ever said anything rude to me. Nobody has ever insulted me. Nobody has ever called my opinion worthless... not once has this occurred in the real world.

People in the real world are civilized. Civility is not a bad thing.

Ya, that’s kind of my point.

I’m not saying the hobby doesn’t have assholes... I’m saying nobody in real life tolerates an asshole, aside from other assholes!

I communicate here the same way I would in person.

I understand that not everybody takes or likes that approach. However, I think that if everybody TOOK that approach we’d be a lot better off.

You proved 2 things last night...

There is a first time for everything, and miracles really can happen.

Well that’s just like... your opinion, Man!

I’m not a Stern Cheerleader who will praise everything they do, but I do advocate for perspective occasionally.

When there is a rising chorus of “Everything at Stern is broken. Do not buy a NIB pin. You’re an idiot if you do. Until they solve (insert issue here. Ghosting, dimpling, code, Decal bubbles, cabinet splitting blah blah blah)

I feel the need to say something like “Ya, unless you like really fun pinball machines like ST, TWD, MET, Aerosmith, and Star Wars... definitely do not buy a new Stern!”

I happen to know and like a lot of people at Stern, so in some cases I’m merely advocating for civility towards people I care about.

Sometimes though, I’m genuinely shocked that people get so worked up over small cosmetic issues. Things like that simply don’t effect my enjoyment of the game.

When my WOZ was delivered there was a chuck missing from the upper side of the cab head. I have no idea if it was damaged at the factory, during shipping, or while the guys moved it in to my house. A 1 inch by 1/4 inch piece of wood had splintered off of the top right side. The delivery guy pointed it out to me, and said, “What do you want to do?!”. I said, “I couldn’t care less”. My machines are packed in one inch apart. I will literally never see this flaw, so I don’t care about it.

Loads of people here would advocate for refusing that delivery over a small cosmetic chip. I think that’s ludicrous.

I’m buying a piece of commercial vending equipment. It’s not supposed to be perfect. I understand that prices have gone up, and everybody (not just Stern!) is testing the limits of the collectors market... that doesn’t change the nature of the beast. It’s still a pinball machine.

What would it have cost JJP to address that concern vs what it cost me to not give a shit about it??!! Returning the game to my distro, who might have to sell it at a discount, and then sending me a new machine. All the time and logistics of that. The cost... for what??!!!

There is no point in arguing the apostrophe in Addams Family. You are objectively right!

I struggled with The Predator project. I know that was a huge nightmare thread. Not looking to reignite any flames or bad feeling there... but here was my struggle.

A friend asked me to check out the pin at TPF. I think it may have been the second public showing of the machine. Maybe first time with “final” artwork.

I spoke to KK at the show, and I played the game. I thought Kevin was a nice guy, and clearly very passionate about the project... and I thought the game was a mess.

So, I told everybody I knew privately that I had serious concerns about the game, and major doubts that the project would ever see completion.

I didn’t want to wage a campaign here slagging one guys passion project though. There were no indications at the time that it wasn’t going to work out fine for everybody involved. I just thought the machine played very poorly, and looked sort of amateur hour. People here, and people I knew thought it was awesome though. I didn’t want to rain on anybody’s parade.

So, with hindsight, it would have been helpful information to some Pinsiders on the fence... but the last thing I want to do is slag somebody trying to make a go of it in the Pinball Business.

Similar situation with... dare I say it... JPOP. In both cases the cheerleaders were all over anybody who cast any doubt on the project... it just seemed like a dumpster fire that wasn’t worth standing around, and didn’t effect me.

Now, new Stern Threads and JJP threads is where my main interest in Pinball lies. Those are the machines I get most excited about. So, I go there for info... maybe that’s my biggest mistake. The only ACTUAL info there is usually what’s already on Stern’s website and Facebook etc.

However, when I go there, and the overwhelming chatter is “Don’t even consider GOTG with Lonnie on code. Plus the call outs are the worst thing ever created”... I think, “Jeez, that’s just a drag. That machine looks really fun to me. I wish people weren’t so consumed with negativity. What makes people so negative about something so fun?!!”

So then you say, “Price is the problem”

Really?!

We used to buy pins for $3500 and sell them for $2000-$3000 used.

Now we buy them for $6000 and sell them for $5000-5500 used.

Or we buy them for $11,000 and sell them for $10,800 or $11,800 used?!!

I think a lot of the price negativity is about people expecting to buy something, play it for 3 months to a year and then sell it at a profit??!! Where else does that exist?! It’s set up a deeply strange expectation.

I ceratinly think it’s what’s encouraging all the nit picky cosmetic stress.

It’s also what’s contributing to code concerns, I think.

If code isn’t amazing at launch, then people can’t insta flip pins for cash due to demand.

I think it’s all wrapped up in this strange value proposition.

Maybe that’s a lot to chew on?! I think I’m getting at something though.

Yes, prices keep going up, and people keep paying those prices... but resale value is also going up.

So, I think I tried to say too many things with that last post.

The first issue is that I struggle with badmouthing pinball projects because people’s livelihoods depend on it. I’m not against fair criticism, but bashing a project is just not something I would do.

Plus, there were plenty of people bashing both projects! So, I just stayed out of it publicly.

Perhaps this is more realistic for Pinside?!...

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