I would say I'm too cheap for that, cheap isn't the right word though. I just like to make and get deals. I'm not sending the pin back but I got get something. I want to find out if the person is going to become my guy from now on. He hooks me up with something and is cool about it you pretty much have my business for life. I get nothing and maybe I try someone else next time. It doesn't have to be big, give me a bit of a break on an accessory, throw me a t-shirt, I gotta get something. I like deals that both people are happy, making a huge hassle and swapping a pin, shit like that I don't need.

I was only wondering this week if Pinside has become more negative?

I can only speak from experience but suddenly the ignore button has become my best friend as opposed to something I never, ever used.

your criticism is always someone else's bashing. It's how it works.

You bring up a good point about the larger trend of people that bubble themselves up surrounded by like minded groups, and close themselves off. It's something I ponder a lot in light of the world's greater problems and something I actively try to avoid for myself.

How can "the real world" compete against a bubble? Of course your bubble is going to be a nicer place for you to be. But then we now have a society of bubbles, and really hardened opinions.

As a reasonably high profile Pinsider, basically my policy has always been to post my thoughts, but then accept that people aren't all going to agree with me, and be ok with someone else having the last word. Considering how many times people have contacted me privately to say they enjoy and appreciate my posts, my positions would absolutely be lessened if I was just repeating myself endlessly to try and argue over someone. So I "win" by not falling into that trap.

A few things to consider on this. In today's secondary market everyone is obsessed with games being perfect. Most people are looking for perfect restored game or super clean HUO games. Games with ghosting, insert issues, bad decals, cabinet damage, etc all take a big hit when resold. Many people live above their means and cannot afford to take big hits on games or they have limited space so when they want something new they have to sell a game. To those people the type of damage that you brush off becomes a problem real quick. I would also say that due to who you are and your relationships with the companies if you ever had an issue that did bother you stern or jjp would take care of it. Others have spent a year + waiting on replacement playfields hoping stern will make it right (which they mostly do) or they get half assed fix kits from stern that do not fix the issues.

As for all the negativity I just try to be critical when I think it's deserved but move on when needed. It's just a hobby and me not liking a new game doesn't matter. Unfortunately in todays world there is not genuine open debate anymore, everyone is right about everything and their minds are so closed off that nothing could change their opinions. The internet gives people the ability to spew constant nonsense and hate with no consequence. My general rule is don't type something you wouldn't say to someone's face.

In general pinside is mostly fun threads and there are tons of good people helping each other out. If you want to see people acting terrible go follow you local, regional, and state politicians on Facebook. They could post a pic from a charity event raising money for children's cancer research and there will be 5000 posts telling them to go die from cancer. It's absolutely horrible the things I see people post. I follow them to keep up with local issues and changes and it's the absolute worst. People can just be horrible when they think there are not consequences. I'm sure your music accounts get a small taste of that. Same thing with college football these days. Kids and coaches get death threats if they do not win or make a mistake.

The situation with negativity on Pinside is a difficult one. On one side you have rising prices and quality control issues which will automatically garnish heated conversations, and on the other end you have people that are enjoying the newer games and are happy just to have a company still making them. There seems to be no middle ground unfortunately. Are you a hater or a fanboy? There is no middle ground where people can agree to disagree.

This is one of the biggest problems on Pinside. It will start off as a genuine conversation and then it turns into a Pinsider trying to be a crusader to save face no matter how heated the conversation gets. It often leads to name calling or you don't know shit and I do mentality. There is also tons of judging(jealousy) going on. There are so many sub-cliques on Pinside like EM guys, DMD guys, Collectors, Tournament players, Operators, Distributors, Veterans, and Rookies. We all love pinball and have tons of passion but prejudices and judgement towards others is really prevalent on Pinside. This type of behavior often comes across as a person being smug, or full of themselves. A sense of entitlement also comes into play when they post an opinion that they consider to be the right one. Nobody needs to "win" that is the problem. If we can learn to agree to disagree and have a conversation without name calling and throwing insults, it would make a world of difference. I do not think forming clique groups will help, and I do not personally think the ignore feature works either because you are always wanting to know what the ignored person said so you can follow a thread properly. People defend the whole thumbs system and I do like giving thumbs up to people but the thumbs down is driving a lot of these 'like minded bubbles'. I have said this before but-(I always get thumbs down because of it) I think if Pinside eliminates thumbs down(which is a negative not positive) it will help. Everyone has a right to express an opinion whether right or wrong but the negativity and gang up mentality is toxic. Thou shall not judge

Someone has been watching the Orville...

Screenshot_2017-12-02-09-05-34 (resized).png

Agree in that a lot of people react to thumbs down as if they have been punched in the face!

It is just supposed to mean that you don't agree.

But, in my view it creates a playground mentality.

The trouble is that all social media websites are designed to be addictive and one of the ways to achieve this is by creating 'social validation feedback loops'.

People post more and more and then check again and again to see how many likes/thumbs up they get.

So, I also am not a fan of the thumbs down as it creates unnecessary antagonism.

You nailed it on the head with one simple sentence-Agree 100%

Get rid of the added validation and get back to talking about pinball.

I personally have fallen victim to the whole negativity because of quality control and pricing increases. Listening to the majority of people reiterate negative comments hundreds of times and all of the sudden they become facts instead of opinions. I have literally been brainwashed into the toxic negative cycle. I am making a resolution for 2018 to really try and be more positive. I am going to try and make a conscious effort to be kind and if I don't have something positive to say-leave it out. I am not saying I want all unicorns and rainbows but I love pinball and I am here for the long run and I have to start seeing the positive aspects of this hobby. If we can't see the positives of this hobby what are we here for? Certainly not for social validation

Yes and thumbs up create unnecessary comments in order to increase social validation.

Robin my recommendation is to try getting rid of all of the validation-it may be a bigger part of the problem than you think. Can we not talk pinball without validation? Just curious

I find that ones personal day, relative to work, family, or more so Politics, creep into attitude
in posts these days.

My observance is a critical armchair look, where I am not overburdened with work, and in general, hoping we dont bring the personal trappings of drama from Facebook.

Perhaps unintentional, by the social validation, and the need to repetitively post, drains the emotion on a thread to
a downward spiral.

Seriously, if you are someone that knows you have repeatedly posted Stern Sucks, Stern code Sucks, JJP Sucks,
This game sucks, over and over, maybe you might recognize that the value you get yourself from doing this
is at the expense of Joy of others.

Doesnt mean one is wrong, or that your opinion shouldnt be heard, but the droning, and ganging up on,
is a by product of social media mentality, and in other forums, the pure size of input dilutes it, but here its like
"Oh, No" Arts saying his LEDs are great, So and so is raving again why GB sucks.

If we are aware that we are droning on, maybe, without any offense meant, we can adopt a type, wait a few minutes, re-read, and then post, giving our thoughts a chance to decide on, if we wish to post this, or am I simply repeating myself.

Great weekend Guys!

I've heard many on pinside argue that the solution is for us all to just write positive things and forgo criticism, debate etc. (if you can't say something nice, then just say nothing at all).

For the record, I want to state that I strongly disagree with this. Yes, this would make pinside a nicer place, but at great costs as we would then forego the benefits of open and free discussion (China is very nice since every thought you can't think there is inaccessible to you and you are forbidden to criticize).

The solution is not to stop criticism and debate but for us all to learn how to conduct all types of discussion more respectfully and be more mindful of our human predisposition to tribal polarization.

It also helps to understand the way the brain works in that down voting from a logical perspective is no big deal at all.

But the brain works in a way that if it perceives a threat, the fight/flight system is activated which is not logical at all.

I know that if I get down voted, I instantly feel like retaliating.

That is not a logical response but most of the time we act on emotion and pre-consciously.

I come here to talk pinball and the the more 'social media' like this site becomes, then I have less and less interest being here.

I am not saying if it is not positive, not to post. You can give constructive criticism in a manner that is appropriate, it is the guys using you are being a **&*head and you are a *&%^hole for thinking that way that is not positive. You can still critic without being obtrusive.

I agree with this but it is better for people to say why they don't like a game, code, QC, etc etc than just hit the downvote button.

I criticise Stern code a lot because I want better code and usually I try and say what could be better. As opposed to Stern sucks etc .

I agree.

Yep, my big gripe as well. The internet "leveling" of the proverbial playfield requires consumers to be MUCH more savvy about who they are listening to.

Here is my idea to drastically reduce the negativity on Pinside. Get rid of all validation except number of years on Pinside which will help determine if a pinsider is new or has been around(more of a trust factor issue). Also keep verified pinside account info. Get rid of the social validation aspect of it by eliminating the thumb ratings system.

Now before I get a bunch of thumbs downs.....just listen. We can keep thumbs up but there will be no record taken and nobody's avatar will be attached-it will simply be a I agree or that is cool thumbs up and stay anonymous. If you agree or think something is cool-give it a thumbs up. But to try and post a rebuttal or inappropriate comment in hopes of getting a thumbs up will be useless. Use thumbs ups for the right purpose and eliminate the social aspect. Meanwhile eliminating thumbs down and people jumping on band wagon's. If you disagree-you will have to actually make a post stating why-way more productive. Imagine making a post and not having to go back to see who thumbed up or downed you. Just talking pinball sounds good to me personally.

Good grief I don't know how to quote properly, sorry.

first off robin. Thank you. For all you do. Pinside is amazing!

I do not see pinside as negative.

Any more than the rest of the world, is negative, too.

(Perhaps terribly so.)

I love pinside. for a hundred reasons.

I think that most discussion of pinball is important.

I can filter through what I see myself. Decide if it's relevant. It might be. It might not be -relevant to me.

Thank you for the excellent excellent website.

Pinside is what YOU choose to make of it. Just like anything in life.

You can choose to participate in "Club threads" or other like minded threads which are docile, informative and overall greatness. The BM66 club thread is awesome for example.

You can also drain threads and ignore people you don't want to listen to. Simple.

So you can live in a bubble or jump in the more contentious threads and make your point. You argue back and forth and then hug it out later, like "life".

The problem with some folks is that they take everything so personally, like a thumbs down. So what.

And of course its hard not to ignore one's political stance, which clearly seeps into the words and language people use, so that sets up somewhat of a "hate barrier" with each other.

Social media sites control voting differently.

One method is to remove social voting.
Another, is that they stay anonymous.
A third way is upvotes show voters Avatars, but down votes do not.
Yet another way on a prominent site is to tally only upvotes, with ID,
but negative votes are not tallied at all, it just stays "red" that someone disagreed.

Indeed, some of us, do take this personally, which is understandable.

Does anyone think any of these changes might help?

Be nice! It works even when others aren't doing it.

I once got a fortune cookie fortune that was so brilliant that I scanned it, blew it up and put it on the wall. It read:

"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."

Words to live by!

Example: "______ sucks. Designer sucks. Play sucks. If you like it, you suck."

Unintelligent response: "You suck worse. Henceforth I will down vote everything you post. Your mom sucks, too."

Intelligent response: "How unfortunate that you have such a negative viewpoint. Perhaps you would like to expound upon that with some specific criticisms. Maybe you'd feel better telling us what you think sucks about it."

The beauty of the intelligent response is that the instigator will likely go away after seeing his bait remain untaken, and if not, there is a chance of steering the discourse back towards an actual discussion.

Turning off down votes helps, too! Who gives a crap how many others "don't agree" (as if) with you?

Your opinion is objectively wrong and thus your account should be frozen.

it would be a real shame to lose the thumbs up / thumbs down feature. i don't think you guys realize that 80% of the posts here would be "YEAH I AGREE" or "NO WAY DUDE" without them. plus it incentivizes better posting. to me, it's worth the tradeoff of occasional abuses. hurt feelings are gonna happen either way. people can form grudges based on posts just as easily as thumbs. if you take away the thumbs, the "me too" and "no way" posts will replace them and still cause the same grudges.

I'm always surprised by the way people talk online vs how they talk in real person. It's like some people lack the "object permanence" most of us developed when we were toddlers: I can't see the person, so I eschew respect and the accountability to treat them like a human being. I never hear these people jumping up at Stern, JJP, or Spooky public events and yelling "your games suck! It looks like they came out of your garage!"

Respect. Love. Humility.

I realize this was in jest, but please note what was quoted was not even an opinion. All four statements were objectively factual. One could not argue that he does like it, or that he has always liked it, or that he does want one, or that he does care about it!

You could say that there's no apostrophe in Addams, though!

I kind of see both sides. I think it does help hold some accountability but it can also create blow ups over nothing. The good thing is if a thumbs down bothers you pinside allows you to turn them off. Most people that get upset about them are to obsessed to be able to not know though.

The thumbs up/down system is ok, it’s the people that abuse it that makes it bad and unfortunately we have a lot of people on here that love to abuse it. When you get 45 downvotes for no reason other than a little clique on Pinside doesn’t like you then yeah that tends to piss a guy off and it makes him want to retaliate. I could care less about a thumbs down here and there but when a person is doing it to you constantly for no reason other than to piss you off and get under your skin, it does make it personal. It’s a system that creates negativity period and there’s nothing good that can come out of it. It either needs to be done away with or start disciplining the people who abuse it. My vote is to just do away with it because it’s stupid and childish anyway. It’s kind of hard to complain about negativity when your system encourages it.

There probably are users who don't know you can switch them off. I just think thumbs down don't really add to people trying to get on and discuss all sorts of topics. But it is what it is.

And I agree it's funny that no matter how fed up people are about an issue, in 'real life' they say very little. I vaguely remember all the threats against Kevin Kulek and yet when he was spotted at a pinball event, no one even spoke to him!

+ Stress, Alcohol, Meds, Recreational, tough day, and it really is about coming
on Pinside, and putting your best foot forward.

Objective criticism becomes over the top bashing when it’s done over and over again by the same people in every thread

Namely Stern threads

It’s also disappointing when I see people “bash” Spooky for what they think is “garbage junk”. It’s not right

Most people that have been around awhile know the reality. The new folks don’t and you are crossing the line and affecting the livelihood of a small business.

It all goes back to the need for some insecure people needing to justify what they bought as if everything else is shit. Trying to tell people how to spend their $$$, what to think and/or how to act is no bueno

As someone that hasn't gotten involved in threads about new games until recently, and being someone that didn't read many threads other than market threads, tech threads, or club threads I had been isolated from most of the negativity.
I see a recurring theme in all social media causing rancor: current events. Current events are always hotly debated. The need to be right is time sensitive. There are always debates in historical topics such "greatest of all time" arguments, but people usually aren't as hateful in them. This applies to not just politics and religion, but hobbies as well.
My opinion is everyone is wrong (myself included).
My outlook on everything sounds negative on the surface, but it's an outlook about learning. What am I missing from the point of view of the person I disagree with?
In the case of these forums the current events are new machines and how we spend our money. Economics in hobbies usually get very contentious.
So when it comes to these new machines, anyone that is being aggressive is wrong, because truth is not absolute. What is true to me is not necessarily true for someone else. People enjoy different things. This is easy to understand. What else though? Different businesses have different business models. Different regions have different economies. Different cultures have different accepted practices and rules.
Saying company X should do something because company Y does it is not an absolute truth because of those factors.
Without going into detail, there is currently an issue going on with a current pinball company that I don't agree with. I don't want to say I'm absolutely right about the issue, because there are too many things I don't know about the company's business strategies and financials. What I think should be done might bankrupt the company for all I know. I use this as an opportunity to learn more about the situation and make informed decisions for my benefit. The flip-side of this is a company should use feedback from social media to update strategies to protect themselves from internal weaknesses and external threats. If we disregard everything we disagree with, we will not grow more, ourselves.

The more I get involved with pinball the more I hear people in real life talk about how bad it is. As others have pointed out, pinside is what you make of it. I don't let other people determine how much I enjoy something, unless someone is purposely attacking me specifically. Even then, I don't mean just negative responses, but someone making a pattern out of harassing me.

Which is not only bad for Pinside/Pinball, but our country. Tribal politics is evil...there is NO justification for hating someone because they don't follow the same religion and/or politics.

Stern threads have turned into a hate fest, can't be a fan boy, and JJP threads are a love fest. A little objectivity would be nice!

Either way, nobody is going to take away my pinball fun factor! Getting ready to mount the AFMRLE topper and fire it up.

Unwillingness to provide direct honesty of the present and confront the errors of the past, leads to mistakes in the future regardless of subject. This includes the pinball industry, manufacturing, and collecting. If there is no education and discussion, actual reality goes unchecked. There is nothing wrong with an informed opinion, but this requires research. However, one liner attempts at "bazingas" by trolls are not educational, beneficial, and requires little thought.

I have avoided thumbs down period. If I do not agree with someone's post then I post what I have a problem with if I feel passionate about the opposition.
Some things I just let go of. I don't agree but I don't feel its worth posting my disagreement. I think Pinside should not get rid of thumbs down voting just alter it so you cannot just thumbs down. This would reign in the down voter (just to take a stab someone) You have to explain yourself in order to thumbs down vote. Thumbs down has evolved from the thumb to the middle finger!

If you take away the thumbs feature I'll just replace it with this:

joanna-krupa-thumbs-up (resized).jpg

Now that's an Idea!

Couldnt agree more!

Thumbs Up! and Thumbs Down! and Go Away!

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Long before that, in a more PC time, someone said:

Opinions are like watches;
Everyone has one
and everyone believes theirs is correct.

But, of course, that was way back when everyone knew what a watch was : )

You mean an Apple Watch right?

Thumbs? What thumbs?

No.

MapleSyrup good post and agree with some of your thoughts.