I'm certainly not going to equate virtual pinball with innovation regarding the real thing, but this very feature has already been implemented with Future Pinball and it looks drop-dead incredible. Too bad the platform is virtually dead (pun intended) and of course 3D rendered playfields can only be so detailed.

Ok, that is seriously, insanely awesome.

Right. If someone can hack it into Future Pinball, imagine what Zen or Farsight could do if they gave it a shot.

Software, not hardware, is the future of pinball.

Software makes or breaks a pinball game... I'll give you that.
BUT; the physical world is what makes Pins fun. Gravity, fiction, interaction.

I have ZERO interest in a 100% or even 80% video game.
Multimorphic is about as close as I want to get to a video game. If I want a video game; I'll go play Borderlands : Pre-Sequel on my PC.
I want to feel, hear, and see the ball actually interact with my shots.

I also just noticed in the second video you can see the backbox reflection in the playfield clearcoat!

The issue I have with the P3, at least as of March this year, was that it did NOT play or feel like a "legit" pinball machine. It felt like a toy. Having the big open bottom half of the playfield was part of the issue to me, the other part was mainly the flippers. They feel "wierd" and shots are not at all where you would expect them to be. They almost feel like 2" flippers off an EM, but pointy and with 50v dc current. It's really hard to explain properly without laying your hands on it, but suffice to say, it's a very different experience. And that's fine...but I'm probably going to be more inclined to buy two more sterns than a P3.

I totally agree. I'm new to the realm of pinball; sure I played every so often as a kid/teen, but it didn't occur to me until recently that it could be a real hobby or that I could own my own pin. I've always been a gamer, mostly on console, and I've seen and played a variety of pinball games in different virtual forms. While I agree that virtualizing or making pinball digital has its own merits and that there is a market for that, it will never satisfy the way a real pin does.

Virtualization may be a new branch of pinball, but (IMHO) it's not an innovation for the physical game.

Maybe.... but today's "pinball" isnt even pinball by historic standards....

I think those original pinball'ers would be shocked at the inclusion of flippers!

And no scoring reels? SHOCKING!!!!!

Hey Frax, I played the P3 about two weeks ago. I playtested it a few other times too.

Don't AC/DC and WPT have big open bottom halves on their playfields? I can't think of other modern layouts off of the top of my head that have an open layout as such, but I don't see why this would be an issue. I'm still not used to the scores being below the flippers but that just means I need more time on it to adjust.

Obviously, they are not Stern flipper mechs as you can see the mechanism through the clear plastic. The coil is housed below the apron, and while you won't be able to use the coil to exert a magnetic force on a ball that is sliding up the other trapped flipper, the P3 flipper mech as is currently setup expands the slingshot rubber slightly, such that you can slow the ball somewhat as it traversing the inlane with that flipper that it is heading towards. Also, I've been able to do a live catch with them, which isn't my forte, but I can do drop catches, which are kinda my thing.

I was able to hit all the ramps easily enough so I don't think flipper strength is an issue. Not sure it matter how many volts are going thru the flippers really as long as you can hit the ramps. At the last P3 open house, there were some 12 year olds who told Gerry that they weren't hitting able to hit the ramps, so Gerry put me on the spot and asked me to hit some ramps while on the overhead camera. The kids gathered around as I started to show off a bit. "nice shot!" "whoa!" "good job!" I told them, "eh I could have done better" Then I tried to hustle some money out of them and asked if they wanted to play multiplayer (just kidding).

Anyway, I think every system's flippers are different, takes me a ball or two to adjust sometimes when I go from say Gottlieb System 3 to Williams EM.

Hey Frax. You seem like an experienced pinballer, and you clearly know your stuff... But I couldn't disagree more with your comments about the P3 flippers. I spent a lot of time on that machine at TPF, and I was really impressed by it.

The flippers took a few moments to get used to... But I find that to be true with every single machine I step up to! You flip a bit, and then adjust. Same as stepping from a modern Stern to an older Williams/Bally or Gotlieb pin. They all feel a little different. The P3 felt in no way inferior to me... Just a little different.

I think the LCD playfield opens up some very exciting possibilities. The openness of the bottom is actually a fairly common design element to many of my favourite games... The difference is the P3 "open" area will actually be interactive! There some pretty cool possibilities there.

Everybody is of course entitled to their opinion, I'm not trying to disrespect yours... I just wouldn't want people to write this machine off based on your remarks. I'd encourage people to give it a try. I played hundreds of games at TPF, and the P3 was one that got me genuinely excited. I'm looking forward to seeing it again.

Sorry, Frax. I'll have to respectfully disagree. The argument that it didn't play or feel like a legit pin... based on having a open bottom half of PF... doesn't make sense. In addition to what Brian said, there are a LOT of other very highly regarded and sought after pins that have a wide open bottom half. AFM comes to mind. How mind-blowing cool would it be to have AFM's wide open PF space be an interactive screen that interacts with the ball with dynamic graphics rather than solid/flashing/unlit PF lights? That's what P3 brings to the table.

"It felt like a toy"
Depends on your definition of "toy," I view all pinball machines as toys. They don't do work -- they are indeed toys that provides us all with awesome entertainment experiences and a means to have fun and/or compete with our friends. But if "toy" is associating the P3 with the likes of the Zizzle or Stern's "The Pin," then once again, I couldn't disagree more. The P3 has the same size and physical functionality of a full-sized pin, with 2014 technology integrated.

Flippers --
They had plenty of strength and pop to make all the shots and do all the usual flipper techniques (dead bounces, live catches, drop catches, etc). Plus, they're fully adjustable.
Yes, they do look different, and my first fear was that they wouldn't be as responsive (in terms of lag between when you push the button and when the flipper fires). But I found no lag, and just a different feel between P3 and other modern pins. I find that there's a different feel between Stern and Bally/Williams, and between Stern and WOZ. Even more so with "modern" Gottlieb's.

But I find there's more "shots not where you'd think they would be" due to Super Bands vs. regular rubber than differences in mfr flippers (other than Gottlieb's).

The basis for my opinion (in case anyone is interested): I have played the P3 on 6 separate occasions, dating back to 2012, and most recently this month. I do not have a P3 on pre-order, nor am I affiliated with Multimorphic. Admittedly, I am a fan of the P3 platform, and excited for its continued development and eventual commercialization.

The main problem inherent to P3's interactive video playfield idea is that the shot you're aiming for isn't the final trajectory of the ball. For example: in TZ, if you aim for the clock shot, that's where you look at on the playfield after you've flipped the ball up to it. Your eyes are anticipating the ball's location after it ricochets off that target. In P3's game, the ball travels past the target your eyes are focused on and once you've recognized you hit that target, it's a search for where the hell the ball went. Those super quick milliseconds can do things to your brain that some people will have a problem with. Some people will be able to adjust to it, others won't.

At least that's what my impression was from playing it. Great ideas and a great use of new technology, but like every single pinball machine ever made, probably not everybody's cup of tea.

well the original pinballers would have been shocked *by* scoring reels.

I'm sorry to hear you have this issue. That's certainly an interesting and -- at least from what I've heard -- a unique perspective.

But plenty of people (myself included) don't from the same issue given the popularity of numerous classic pins with star/button rollovers that you intentionally shoot for. Oh, and WOZ, too. It has middle-of-the-playfield button rollovers.

I do agree that P3 won't be everyone's cup of tea. I know of quite a few people that vastly prefer classic pins or EM's and don't care for modern pins. It's safe to say the P3 may not be for them. But for anyone that also appreciates or exclusively appreciates modern pins, and has been wanting modern pin manufacturers to try truly new and innovative things, then P3 will be right up their alley.

Rollovers are static and sometimes not even lit.

P3's screen targets are full animations with a depth of field beyond that of the playfield.

True, they're not completely different, but pretty far apart in reality.

Real story is pinball will stay pretty much the same until there is a bigger market. Everyone want a cell phone but not everyone wants a pinball or has room for it. Pinballs are not overly complex. The chips used for the software , scoring , rules etc are off the shelf and cheap. Its the small market that keep the price up. Stern is basically almost a mom and pop operation.

I dunno about WPT, sadly, nobody seems to want to sell me one at the right time or trade me for Jackbot. I'd love to find out. I get what you're saying though...the difference is that at least from what I recall on the P3, and my memory ADMITTELY is not the best in the world(!), it felt there was like NOTHING to shoot for on the sides of the lower playfield with Lexy. It's probably just a code/design issue, or me, because realistically, there's no reason why you can't give players something to shoot for on the edge of the screen, but I just don't remember it occurring much. The other thing is kind of how some people feel about virtual pinball... the physical interaction between a rubber band and a standup or a drop are not the same as the devices present on the P3. Yes, it's totally nitpicking on my part, but they're going to have to deal with a lot worse than me when this thing actually gets out there, especially at a 10k price point.

Flipper strength was totally NOT an issue. Agree 100% there. As far as using coil magnetics to slow down the ball....SERIOUSLY?!? Is that why people flap the flipper like that? I always thought it was just creating extra friction via vibration to slow it down..LOL. Kinda cool that the slingshots try to emulate that either way, if it's intentional. Definitely didn't notice that in the very dark room of the TPF after-party though alcohol haze LOL.

I didn't have the tracking issue from what I remember, but again.....alcohol. =P

ah, there are targets on both sides that correspond to the buildings on the playfield. Hitting both will light another lock at the 8-ball spinning lock mechanism, and that's how you can get an 8-ball multiball going. You can opt to start a multiball earlier, but the jackpots are worth more with the more balls that you have locked.

How I play the virtual targets is that I try to make sure I have a shot lined up behind it. On some modes, the targets are moving so you want to wait until they are lined up. I like to see them near an orbit shot or the right scoop. If you shoot up the middle, you risk a center drain off of the targets in the middle. On some modes, the scoring is set up such that the virtual targets give you an added bonus to other main scoring objectives. The crate mode is one where you have to line up the shot with the available scoop in order to exit the mode and you open the crates to find more scoring opportunities.

If you get a chance to see the innards, there are subways and VUKs designed to work with swappable playfields. I figure that and the ball tracking sensors play into the price. Thing is that if you ask them to open it up while it is in their booth, other people will walk by and presume that there is something broken with the prototype.

Yep, I told Gerry that a player may be able to exploit the slingshot thing and trap the ball more easily and maybe have a chance to have a repeatable shot but most rule sets are designed to subdue that. I know they are thinking about removing that, so you should let him know if you have an opinion or reason for one way or the other after you play it. I don't think it would be an issue the more I think about it, doesn't seem that easy for a player to control, but they may be thinking about increased wear on the slingshot rubber or some other mechanical reason. In the latest hardware iteration, they added the ability to adjust outlane post placement.

Pinball Innovation hit its peak in the 90's. From now on its just gonna be just gimmicky stuff keeping things fresh for the most part.

Good stuff, Brian. I think maybe I was just too sloshed and it was too late in the day for me to function. I'm not sure there's any better hope of that not being a repeat issue this coming year, but we'll see, LOL. I want to try and hang out and play more this year, and not spend the entire weekend in the tournament area. Really the only thing I'm missing from my "TPF Tournament Experience" roster at this point is an A division top-3 finish for state champs. I'm pretty smokin' happy with my 1st place C EM and 2nd place A EM finishes as-is.

People throw around the word "innovation" where I work like it has magical qualities. Our (B2B) customers just want quality products that make their customers happy. They don't care whether it's revolutionary or not. In fact they would prefer intelligent evolution. Sadly, we are led by people who only care about the New New Thing. Sorry, but this thread got under my skin because I live this every day.

The implication in your message is that 'innovation' is bad. Innovation (new ideas) can potentially move an industry forward by helping it grow. If new ideas result in interesting gameplay features, easier serviceability, better value for your money, then they're clearly not bad. Whether that results from iterative improvements ('intelligent evolution') or largescale / revolutionary changes doesn't really matter.

There are many historical examples in many industries of revolutionary change being hugely successful, just as there are many examples of it failing. The reason it usually fails is because the inventors were solving problems that didn't exist (though sometimes doing that is successful too). In the pinball industry, there are a quite a few problems with traditional machines that, when addressed, could make buying, servicing, and playing pinball machines a more enjoyable experience. There are countless Pinside threads highlighting them.

I agree that innovating just for the sake of innovating is pointless and a huge waste of R&D resources (time, money, expertise, etc). At least in the case of the P3, every single new feature we developed (and there are a lot of them) directly addresses gameplay, serviceability, aesthetics, and/or value.

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Hi Gerry. I'm just saying that focusing on innovation to the point of ignoring everything else (i.e quality, schedule, cost, performance and usability) is bad business. Sometimes the answer to a customer's problem is working smarter and harder for a few months, not a new system that will take 2 years to produce and deliver. None of that really applies to a company like Multimorphic, because you're starting from scratch with new customers. Small start ups do have to "innovate or die". What bugs me is when big companies ignore or even lay off off employees who may not be particularly innovative, but are excellent at quality, customer support, and improving existing designs. It creates an ugly "us vs. them" work environment. The fact that I have 22 patents doesn't mean anything, because I'm working on a "legacy product" and there's a stigma attached to that.

I completely agree. 'Quality, schedule, cost, performance, and usability' can be helped by new ideas or hurt by them. It's not always clear-cut though. Many new ideas help in certain areas and hurt in others.

Each company has to decide what tradeoffs ultimately work best for them. For example, many of our ideas improve performance, quality, cost, and usability but have had long development schedules. The good news is that we're reaching the end of the development process, and the benefits from our efforts will soon become evident.

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Thanks, I'm looking forward to getting my feet wet with PROC. It will happen when all my other projects are all done or sold.

What about 2 or 3 series machines..as example only: Sherlock Holmes...collect the series with a ramp that connects to the other machine for 2 players..to 3 players in the series.
That would be Awesome! Same game on 2 or 3 machines. Perfect for LOR ..gotta have the connecting ramp/tube somehow..,leave that to the engineers.

We have talked a lot about this potential with our FAST hardware. The topic often steers towards multiplayer games in smaller cabinets where the kids can play together/against each other (imagine a 2-player tetris vibe). A single FAST Controller and some networked hardware between the machines should do the trick. Look forward to trying this concept out sometime next year.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

This is actually one of the smartest innovations I've heard in a while, I just have no idea how it would be implemented (but know it exists). I'd be curious how a camera would do in various environments (smoky, dark, bright light glare). The idea of eliminating perhaps 50 switches is like $150 in savings alone, not to mention the labor and miles of wire. Also switch positions could be moved around easily, perhaps sections of the playfield (with only artwork) could trigger events.

There was a project in the early 90s out of Florida State University using video to track the ball's position and where it was expected to be. The results weren't spectacular but they do admit that the efforts constrained by time and other reasons. The use of more modern processors and more affordable higher resolution cameras will improve on their results. Multiballs were a major challenge if I recall correctly.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

switches are relatively cheap and reliable. Camera's can have accuracy issues. it its about the PF looking down its easily blocked.

Not the same thing but very similar. It's a proof of concept that the ball can indeed be tracked with a camera.

^^^ This, and the latency of registering a switch hit. If someone succeeds in tracking a 4-ball multiball with a camera, SkyNet can't be far behind.

Make sure your glass is clean, there is no glare, and you only want to play camera upgraded gottlieb street level games!

Any switch activity outside of the cameras eye is also a challenge. Below ramps, below upper play fields, in lower play fields, etc. In my opinion, the form factor of the game is not ideal for mounting a camera to monitor play field activity. It's certainly a fun concept, but not something that makes sense in a commercial pinball game.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

The 'challenges' are nothing that engineers can't solve over time, and the cameras could also be used to:
- allow for theremin-style flipper interaction
- adjust attract/tilt response based on situations
- show operator who broke what
- adjust game rules/settings based on player stance, etc.
- send head-tracking audit info to developers, operators, PAPA, whoever...

Progressive/learning rules are definitely the future, but like most human plans, it'll be implemented before it's really ready and totally be 'Terminator-pin'.

IMHO, that is the #1 area in need of improvement. We need a more consistent way of dialing in tilt settings. The plumb bob is outdated and crude. EVERY league night, there are bad feelings about tilt settings being too conservative. I would love for that to be a non-issue.

Great now we can play doubles with the computer..good thing it can't nudge.

They aren't really the problem. It's not really "How to make it happen?" as it's "Who's going to pay for this?" and then there's the practicallity of it. Penty of things are possible but just not practical. Everything you put in that table is something that's going to break and cost money. The fancier it is, the likelier it breaks and the more expensive it is. Bad selling points.

It's like saying cars need innovation. No, they don't. WHat they need is dependability, simplicity, ease of use and ease of repair. I'm all for innovation in these areas in both cars and pinball. Sadly, innovation today means connectivity and electronic bling - two things that I'd prefer to reduce in my life.

that's why I drive toyota, dependable and simple.. no car of today is going to be ease of repair, unless you're simply replacing complete components (there is no repairing parts).

And cars ALWAYS need innovation. Look at the new ford mustang that's coming out, 310hp out of a 4-cylinder engine that still gets 32mpg. Back in 1992 you were lucky to get 230hp out of a v-8 that got crap gas mileage.
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/09/19/2015-ford-mustang-quick-spin

Electronics have got way cheaper in recent years. No reason pinball should not advance.

BTW, HP and MPG are generally proportional and not inversely proportional as your comment would suggest. It's the driving style that generally decreases a performance car's fuel economy. The cadillac northstar is a perfect example of an efficient V-8 and the design is almost 25 years old.

I'm going to agree with "affordability", shame the zizzle project lasted maybe two years because of a couple bad decisions like: "custom" flipper buttons-switches that were too wimpy instead of using better reliable and available arcade buttons, glitchy controller that burns down the popcap solenoid, lack of parts and support.. zizzle might have really become something cool if they hadnt baled out.
I get it that affordability is going to also mean somewhat simplistic, can be good bad or both..

reading this thread an idea just popped into my little brain, something I hadnt seen that might be a kinda neat innovation, what if all the solenoid hardwares were made to be surface mounted? flipper and slingshot solenoids hidden under the sling plastics, surface mount popcaps with solenoids in the bodies, pop (up!) targets instead of drop targets that drop back down when a row is completed? that might sound kinda silly by itself, but if all that kind of hardware were mounted on glass or something like a scratchproof-ish plexi, it could sit over a TV monitor for all kinds of changing pf artwork and effects.. AND, it'd be possible for the same pf to play a different game that has different rules and associated artwork, even though the physical shots would be the same. 1/8" maybe 3/16" might be enough room for bolts screws sruds or whatever and mechanical linkage and wiring if done really tight-tidy, surface mount components like that could give some more freedom for multi-level pf's too for not needing to hide longer mechanical linkages. as an innovation the surface mount hardwares might open up for some new creativity?

What you are talking about here sounds a lot like what Gerry is making with his video game pinball platform. Check it out at multimorphic.com

Aaron
FAST Pinball

fast.. had no idea someone out there already thinking doing close-similarly, pretty cool.
looks like the only difference or possible originality being to go surface mounted integrated hardwares like self contained popcaps, pop(swing)UP targets instead of drops. they might be started on those or planning already, or really like the ideas. self contained surface mount popcap wouldnt be incredibly difficult to "invent", same for swing-UP targets that could get caught mechanically or magnetically to be released by a solenoid or countering electromagnet, whichever. theyed need to be light and swing outwards for a ball not to get stuck behind them maybe. the popcaps I'm envisioning could also maybe be "portable", line up the contacts and plant the mounting screw(s) so it could be positioned differently. same for popUP targets or standup targets if they were surface mountable productions, a fairly easily changeable pf configuration.

Reminder: I'll be presenting a seminar on "Innovations in Pinball - Moving the Industry Forward" at Expo on Friday (Oct. 17) at 9am.

We'll discuss why MFGs should innovate and also why they shouldn't. We'll discuss some of the challenges that face innovators. We'll also discuss various innovations and how they can improve experiences in buying, servicing, and playing pinball.

Hope to see you there.

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Can someone record this presentation?

Here were my thoughts on the matter (and many others):

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/im-not-really-complainingbut-wow

Only problem is when it goes under the PF or multi-ball as stated. A combination of things may work. Perhaps the pinballs themselves could be different colors or something for the camera to track.