"I'll bet you $20 and give you 2-1 odds, then?"

Best response ever. I'm going to start using it.

I always tell 'em to come over to my house and try their luck against me. They usually wind up shooting pool in about ten minutes.

Never had anyone say that to me before. I get a lot of, "oh I didn't realize there was all this stuff to do on here."

Yeah I don't get the luck but I always get people who seem like their mind has been blown when I explain each game has it's own rule set.

Tell them to read this.

http://gizmodo.com/how-one-perfect-shot-saved-pinball-from-being-illegal-1154267979

There's your mistake.

There is, of course, much luck involved in pinball, and it's the Great Leveler in the game. Doesn't matter how good you are--if the stars aren't aligned, and you have a few mistimed bad bounces, you could be in for a very long day in a tournament. Likewise, complete idiots like me can have one epic ball that gets you a high score. Doesn't mean you're good by any stretch of the imagination--just lucky that one time.

Yes, I've heard that many times before. I tell them you might think so, until you watch someone play that knows what they are doing. I remember the first time I stood next to a world class player and watched them play. The revelation was - we are playing the same game, but they don't play the same way I do! I've learned quite a bit since then.

A very tight tilt makes it even. Well, maybe not even, but possible.

i have heard that question a couple times but it's pretty easy to dispel. i call my shot a few times, that impresses them, even if it's a wide ramp or a huge bash toy. just pick the easiest shot on the table and hit it a few times. then i show them a post pass -- that's super easy, but looks impressive in terms of demonstrating ball control.

i tell them i'm not even very good, and that watching the real masters dissect a table is amazing.

i explain my own personal #1 rule, which is always avoid intentionally ceding control of the ball. aimless flailing and randomness = bad. do that and you ARE relying on luck. when you hit a ramp, it will usually feed right back to a controlled flipper shot. that's good. when you hit a hole, that usually spits it back out towards the flippers for a slightly less controlled shot. that's fine if you know the tendencies of the kickout. pop bumpers send the ball out of your control. that's bad. orbits can be dicey.

i think maybe explaining those kinds of general concepts first goes farther than trying to explain a bunch of complicated table-specific rules.

Luck is a part of the game, but the better you play the less luck you need to win.

It's a combination of both skill and luck.

Then how do the same guys win PAPA and Pinburgh every year!?

Magnets in their pockets.

Poker.

Don't even know 'er.

Those guys sure are some lucky SOBs!

Telekinesis.

They don't. Skill will get you to the top ten. A little luck gets you to #1.

Pinball is all about ball control. Keep the ball off the slings, where there is no ball control. They can be deadly, such as in IM , XM and ACDC. Avoid shots up the middle until the risk is worth taking. I find there is a bit of luck involved, but a lot of skill. Miss shots and you rely on the luck of the bounce. Use skill and make shots, no luck is needed.

That Elwin guy sure is a lucky s.o.b.

Yeah except for true house balls. Those are the worst especially after an amazing ball one.

It is certainly a combination of skill and luck. That is what I both love and hate about pinball. I am in the top 150 on IFPA rankings. I'm totally convinced that pinball is about 30% luck- 70% skill. Unless your playing on a short flipper, huge outlane EM. Then it's probably about 50-50.

Any ADULT that thinks this, is not worth trying to talk to about such things.

Focus on starting a tournament or league in your town, rather than wasting your breath on those in the "general public" that has no interest in pinball at all. You will never convince them of anything in the world that they have not already discovered on their own. Most often because they are just not interested in our hobby.

couldn't disagree more. i've been asked the skill vs luck question a few times, and it's always been because they never really played pinball before. it's not like it was some deeply held unalterable personal conviction or anything. that would be weird. it was an honest question, easily answered.

I say "yep....just like poker, care to play either for cash?"

had some neighbors over on the 4th of July, I proposed a weekly poker group, and one of them said "oh, cool, I've always meant to learn to play poker" and about 3 of us were like "OH WE WILL TEACH YOU!"

Actually it's all ball bearings these days...

Luck is a combination of skill and practice.

With enough practice and skill you will begin to control the luck of the table.

Everyone can have a bad bounce that they equate to poor luck, but the most skillful players will have enough practice to deal with it.

They must have been watching me play.

Don't forget to check the seventh fetzer value. I think it's been stickin'

Over the past 18 years, there have been 9 different PAPA World Champions.

One Time Champion (6) - Joey Cartegena, Rick Stetta, Paul Madison, Jorian Engelbrektsson, Andrei Massenkoff, Cayle George
Three Time Champion (2) - Lyman Sheats, Bowen Kerins
Six Time Champion (1) - Keith Elwin

Three players, Lyman, Bowen & Keith, have more combined titles than the other six.
These three men destroy the idea that pinball is mostly luck. While a small amount of luck does indeed happen in pinball, the best players in the world use far more skill than luck to win multiple World Championships.

http://papa.org/papa-tournaments/papa-world-championships/

PAPA 1 - World Champion Joey Cartegena
PAPA 2 - World Champion Rick Stetta
PAPA 3 - World Champion Lyman Sheats
PAPA 4 - World Champion Bowen Kerins
PAPA 5 - World Champion Paul Madison
PAPA 6 - World Champion Keith Elwin
PAPA 7 - World Champion Lyman Sheats
PAPA 8 - World Champion Bowen Kerins
PAPA 9 - World Champion Lyman Sheats
PAPA 10 - World Champion Jorian Engelbrektsson
PAPA 11 - World Champion Keith Elwin
PAPA 12 - World Champion Keith Elwin
PAPA 13 - World Champion Keith Elwin
PAPA 14 - World Champion Andrei Massenkoff
PAPA 15 - World Champion Keith Elwin
PAPA 16 - World Champion Bowen Kerins
PAPA 17 - World Champion Cayle George
PAPA 18 - World Champion Keith Elwin

Marcus

These guys all cheat though, I see them shaking the machine and stuff. You're supposed to just flail both flippers wildly at the ball. The object is to just keep it in play as long as possible while doing this according to everyone I've spoken with about the issue outside of this weird community.

Absolutely this! Glad I wasn't the only one thinking it. Unless gaming somehow comes up naturally in the conversation, I never try to push it. Having the arcade video games comes up way more even though I also don't bring that stuff up.

I had somebody really put the press on me with Disney collectibles, all these little ceramic thimbles, cups and figurines. I tried to be nice, but couldn't even feign interest and also couldn't get away quick enough. I never want to be the guy doing that to someone that doesn't give a shit about pinball. lol

My point exactly. Everything has to come together for you to win. It's not just skill. I think all of these guys are on the same basic level, but it comes down to who had a good day and who didn't...and a lot of times when you're talking about that, you're talking about luck and chance. Has nothing to do with somebody's skill suddenly evaporating at one tournament. We all have those days when you know it's a pinball day or it's not. It doesn't mean you suck one day and you're great the next. When it's not your day, it's not your day.

Unless you make every shot you aim for, then there is absolutely luck involved. Thought the better you get at hitting your shots, and nudging to save the ball......the less luck you need

Yeah, I usually tell people.... Don't play against *me* -- Play against the *machine.* Play against *me*? You. Will. Lose.

It's not cheating until the tilt bob hits the ring.

I'm surprised by the "don't talk to people about pinball" sentiment expressed by a few in this thread. I bring it up with everyone I can, and have brought a few people into the hobby that way. The most common reaction is people being surprised and curious - and it only takes me a minute or two for them to realize that "wow, pinball is a thing".

Played my brother on my IM today. Guess which score was mine.

He refuses to trap the ball to aim for shots saying he's rather fate decide than stop the ball. Oh well.

image.jpg

And it appears he paid the iron price for it.

NO!

There's a difference I think. I'll bring it up if someone says to me "what did you do on the weekend?" which is common around the office I might say I picked up a pin, spent time working on one, had friends over to play pinball and the conversation goes from there if they ask questions about it. If they don't that's the end of it. I think when people say they bring up pinball it isn't a case of a one sided conversation where you just cram a bunch of info down their throat.

I have never had that said to me but I'd be happy to take their money just the same

Like everything else, the more you play/practice, the better you get.

You work with better people than me... If I brought it up, there would be nonstop singing of Pinball Wizard and The Accused references. Funny but a bit relentless. lol