Does it matter?

Probably a safe bet comparing the payment schedule to really seeing the WOZ delivered.

$500 - NOW

$1000 February 15, 2013

$1500 May 15, 2013

July delivery of WOZ

He is not expecting his WOZ till Summer. Therefore he would pay $3000 for Hobbit.

But they are $3,000 refundable dollars. Where is the risk?

I'm sorry, but this payment up front business model by JJP is b.s. I cannot believe that people accept this as being reasonable. People on this forum seem to really sh*t all over Stern for everything they do wrong (I admit I whine a bit about them too with respect to their release of information), but at the end of the day, Stern does not take my money prior to me having a pin delivered to my door. Let alone 2 YEARS BEFORE!

And JJP hasn't even delievered the first WOZ machines!

I am all for competition and options. And the advancement of pinball. But this payment 2 years upfront based on promises is crap.

What if 1 year from now, the economy craps even more. And JJP declares bankruptcy. Do you think you'll be getting your $4500 in deposits back? Good luck with that.

I don't see how its the pinball community's responsibility to keep JJP a liquid company. Your money should be earning interest in your account until your pin is ready to be delivered. Not earning money in JJP's accounts and keeping them afloat.

Should JJP go under

95% of all businesses go under in 5 years or less.

That is one of the biggest issues. I back JJP and applaud their efforts, but posted this in another forum to articulate my concern which I know is shared by a few others:

1. Individuals with faith in JJP and his vision fronted money for the
WOZ. Distributors seemed to get in later after demand was validated
and JJP expanded his business plan - because understandably he needs
them. Smart business.

2. Individuals should get games first and know first about game #2.
JJP business model is not like Sterns. Stern does not ask us to pay up
front for games as individuals - they rely on distributor network.
JJP asks for buyers feedback and loops us into design process - partly
because smart approach by Jack partly because we help pay up front for
the games. Thus, my point - different model and we should know
first. If JJP is evolving (understandably) and moving to a
distributor model to grow, then tell us and set our expectations AND
change the purchase model of having to pay up front in installments.

3. If I put down $500 now for Hobbit which is refundable - understand
to save my spot - get it. If I don't want/need to pay in installments
but will pay in full when game is delivered or on assembly line with
firm delivery date for my specific game why can't this be
accommodated? The goal of installments is to help buyers space out
payments to afford. But, if I have the money and can afford why do I
have to pay so far in advance for my game? Reading it, see it doesn't
make sense - just sounds like I'm funding development of next game.

I see how you are getting it now. I think you guys are off on the WOZ dat but I have no facts. I think a lot of people will have WOZ by the Feb payment date, that means $500 by my guess.

You are.

I just talked to Jen...I am in too.

Yup. Not an issue for you?

It's turned into a kickstarter for each pin. Not sure if that is a sound business.

Thst

That's your opinion. I have my doubts.

We all manage risk in our daily lives. I'm personally comfortable with this level of risk.

I look at it as: No one "needs" a pinball machine.

If you spend $7500 on a game, and the company goes under and you lose your money, it will hurt, but you won't die, because that $7500 was your "fun money".

Not for some people... Lol.

I don't want to die Vid.

I'm in too.

Go JJP.

Pinball is rolling. Hey, I started in the hobby back in 2001 when B/W DMDs were all the rage and Stern was about to throw out Monopoly with Pat Lawlor as the designer and it was exciting to have Stern making a comeback of sorts (can't say Striker Extreme and High Roller Casino and Golden Cue were getting a lot of people excited).

Go Stern too as I hope everyone does well in this business. Sure, we can nit-pick the fine details of how things in the business work but I like the big picture overall here. At least we have choices.

You would not spend your only savings on a game you might never get, would you?

Or your kid's collage fund?

If you have $7500 to risk, it probably comes out of the money you would normally spend on a boat, snowmobile, motorcycle....your fun money.

If $7500 is A LOT of money to you, and you would jump out a window if JJP went out of business with your cash, DON'T buy the promise of a pinball machine.

One day when you are old, need help changing your diaper, have no sex life and everything hurts; you will wish for death.

Understand your POV. Mine is $7,500 whether fun money or not is still a nice chunk of change. Is it a risk - yes. What I question is why do I (we) have to take that risk? I already helped Jack fund the first pin to get his company off the ground. That model disturbs me when I really don't get preferential treatment over a disti. I know the response, then don't prepay for the Hobbit and keep your money until after. I'd prefer to see Jack modify his business model to that where he takes the risk back on. It's called business. He's smart if he gets all of us to pay up front while he uses that cash to build a disti network and floats our cash. But wow, we are desperate for new pins.

I will tell you this, if Stern adopts this model the hobby is messed up.

I will NEVER need help changing my diaper!

So when the Hobbit is released, are we saying that there will not be any option to purchase if you didn't pre-order/pre-pay?

I actually really like the payment option. It is great.
What I don't particularly like is that I fully paid for WOZ a year ago and now need to make a deposit for the next game if I want it. That is what leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As a business owner, I don't think I would have any clients doing this tactic. I feel forced to make a decision or else no game.

I'd have to sell a pin or two to afford TH and with the delays seen during WOZ I'd rather have my games than play speculator. Plonking down that much cash on nothing other than title gets me back to how I felt about Sterns LE selling model.

That is exactly the point - Jack is smart.

He used everyone's money to start a new company. He did not take on investors who would end up owning him (or kicking him out at some point), he used you. You assumed the risk, but do not own a percentage of the company. Brilliant business move.

For the second game, Jack is even smarter.

Now there is a tiny window of opportunity that has magically opened before anyone has taken delivery of the first game they paid for. A "hurry up" to plow more cash into his business - again without you buying a percentage of the company.

I like Jack just for his business sense.

Pre orders and deposts 1.5 years out is getting a little nuts. I will give it whirl this time more to support Buddy as a distributor. But no matter what the next title is I am not doing it again.
Rag on Stern all you want but they ask for a reasonable deposit and very close to the game being done, then payment to ship. 1500LEs ? 1.5 years putting out cash? That is a crazy train that is easy to hop off of.
Look forward to a WOZ and hopefully a Hobbit but at that point its normal business or move on.

Of course not. There will be plenty of regular editions to buy. This is to get in early for LES and pricing.

I LOVE the business model and payment schedule.......and it appears there are plenty of others that either like it or don't care or just put up with it and I suspect a host of others that pay it just so they can bitch about it and will do so non-stop until the game comes out!

Either way, it is what it is, embrace it baby cause it ain't changin.....

Some awesome pins coming out over the next two years!

The problem I see is that Jack will charge LE price for the standard model when the time comes. Mark my words, peeps.

Congrats to the guys that are getting a pin/theme they want. Personally, I'd rather wait and see if Dennis Nordman can get the ball rolling with his idea. The way I see it, pinball is booming again(at least compared to recent years) and anything is possible these days.

Couple of things....I am reading alot of people talk about "no risk" your money is refundable. I kinda read the payment plan that only the deposit would be refundable...I may be wrong but that point should be well defined.

Second, has any of the WOZ preorders received "the email" from Jack yet? I have not so I am wondering if I missed it or if it is still forthcoming.

I have to admit, I will be sending in my deposit at a minimun....buy some time to see how this develops.

Love the attention to detail and quality of WOZ...have faith it will play awesome as well.

You nailed it. This is what most are missing. But tip of the hat to Jack.

Change can start by casting a simple pebble in the water causing ripples. This too can still change if enough people speak up. Have installment as an option not mandatory.

Be careful my friend, the recession started because of poor loans in housing and people overextending. Blind trust is a crazy thing. All it takes is one start-up pinball group to take pre-orders and go under and whammy. Again, if Skitb can accomplish their model why not JJP? (See vid post above)

Hey, if you can piss away $7K I have a charity you can donate to.

I received my email around 2pm

No email yet. You don't have to wait for it to call Jen or Katie and place your deposit and grab your spot in the production run. I did it this morning.

I'm waiting for the email from company ABC "Our next game will be Harry Potter - $7500 not a penny more, target 4Q 2014 - just $1000 gets you in line for it. Send your first installment to Nigeria because paypal takes too many fees"

That is a common misconception.

People who get risky loans have to buy PMI insurance to protect the mortgage company should the people default on their loan.

I'll add this to my earlier post...

If anyone wants to work a 'trade' thier WOZLE spot for game #2 I'd like to talk to you. I sense there might be some people who bought a WOZ that only have so much space for so many games or so much money to spend and it's either one or the other. If you like #2 better, I'll take your WOZLE off your hands. I have a number of people who missed out on WOZ and want one that.

Joe Newhart
PinballSTAR Amusements
570-357-0042
[email protected]

From your posts, I respect your intellect. However, watch "Too Big to Fail" if you haven't already. I may have summarized shortly for posting space, but in a nutshell that was one of the first dominos to fall. Risky & creative loans and loosened requirements.

I'm blaming lax regulation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/money-power-wall-street/

sorry repeat post

Let's be honestly - this isn't exactly a new idea. Pre-ordering has been used from everything from retail to cars to music (Marillion in 2000). Usually you need an automatic built pent up demand, which obiviously he has. I'm not saying it isn't smart to use, just that it isn't anything visionary.

I will state Jack is smart if he is still making pinball games 10 years from now.

I for one will speak up and will do so with my voting dollars. I had planned on being in for JJP#2 and esp if it was the Hobbit but based on this pay up front and wait A LONG TIME or pay more later and not get the LE, I will pass. (the only thing that would get me excited enough to give JJP any interest free loan at this time would be if Pat Lawlor was making his triumphant return). I think this business model stinks for those that fronted the first project and stinks for those that are expected to front the second also. If I was in on WOZLE I would be very disappointed at the thanks JJP is offering to his interest free investors which are yet to recieve their 1 share of the company purchased.

So who wants to sell me some sweet B/W pins at wholesale prices so you can go pluck down for THLE

Sheesh! No one is FORCING anyone to buy this machine. Don't like the plan, move on.

Exactly. For me, JJP doing The Hobbit is a great combination. I was on the phone this morning with Jen locking in the same number as my WOZ ECLE and cheerfully making my deposit.

+1

One of the most accurate things in the thread.

The hobbit is going to be a huge brand over the next 18 months.

Hoping #617 is available. =F

It stinks for the buyer, because they are assuming all the risk, but it is a brilliant move for Jack.

Like he says; no problem for me, but is a problem for you

Same with WOZ, Jack knows what he is doing. I do not see a problem with the way he is doing it. It is almost like buying a gift card that you have to wait to use. I am pretty used to it with my boys and video games. If you prepurchase a game yo can get one reserved instead of trying to get one when they are released. They also promise a special gift like a special map package or something like that "for prebuy only." Then after the release you realize that you can get all that crap anyhow.

It is a great way to increase sales and lets people make payments long term, I just wish Jack was not so far behind right now.