So which is it? Is a contest always bad no matter the prize or if the prize is good enough you're willing to throw your work away by entering and not winning? You state exactly opposite arguments trying to prove your point. This a a very small time t-shirt promo. To some its worth their time, to others its not. But you would never enter a "contest" since they are blatantly disrespectful to anyone who does not win. Unless it's for a lot of money then working for free is fine if you don't win?

and $100- $200 is the level of this "competition"

Yes, within a week of the closing of the 2013 Expo.

Why do you think Rob Berk was at the VFW Showcase? To see how it's done or maybe it was * An A-M-A-Z-I-N-G coincidence *

Thanks to the seminars, Stern Pinball nearby, A Hercules (the pinball is a Cue Ball!) Expo is the best all-around show.

TPF wants a word with you

At least three professional artists have come into this thread explaining how people with your viewpoint have it wrong. With all due respect, you claim to not have any experience in this line of work, but you're trying to tell us about our business. I'm not sure any of us repeating the difference between cheap labor in the guise of a contest, RFP work, and a legit contest -- is going to change your mind at this point.

Tell you what, though. I need my brakes done. PINSIDE CONTEST! I have two cars that need their brakes done. I need 8 auto-mechanics to come to my house and pick a wheel. Perform a brake job on each wheel. The winner of the contest will be paid the equivalent of parts, not labor, for the one brake he did. The rest of you GTFO my property.

...annnnnnnnnnnnnnd GO!

Great idea! You forgot to mention that your car is a race car and you'll keep all your winnings.

For an amatuer contest the $100 is likely just "OK" at best.
If seasoned artists want to bite on the terms and conditions you are giving away your work and rights so place your name in the image sublime at the minimum, or something really hidden and funny as viewed in a mirror.

Asking for charity design graphic work that will be reproduced and for sale at a paid admission for profit event.....
Gotta love capitalism.

Maybe the lucky winner can print & deliver the first 50 shirts also.

You know... I see both sides of this thread.
But I'm not feeling a lot of love from "expo" to fellow pinheads. So much so; that I'm kindof with the boycott expo crowd.

In you example everyone who did the brakes would be paid. Mike said any used designs get paid. I've got multiple contractors coming to my house to look at electrical upgrades I want to have done.every last one who wants the job will come here and quote the job based on my specs. They will spend their time and effort to have a chance to have me hire them. They will need to have documented plans which take time to prepare. The ones I don't choose will have done a lot of work for nothing.just like unused shirt designs done a lot of professional time and effort wasted

I just don't understand why a few pinsiders always seem to jump in Mikes ass everytime he post something here!!! Ryan's conversation was with ROB BURKE not Mike. Mike on this is mostly the messenger on the shirt thing considering Burke is not on Pinside

Mike in conversations with myself has even said he thought the prize was too low, before this thread was even posted!!!. Mike wants this to be the best Expo EVER!!! He had gone to great lengths to make that happen.

I just don't understand why everytime Mike posts something, it instantly gets bashed. Mike has done a TON for the hobby over the years and puts on one of the best pinball shows in the country for 30 years!!!

Just seems to me that he doesn't get the same respect as others do in his position. Shit just bothers me

You're proving that you still don't get it.

The contractors are just quoting the job. Like the RFP example they're pitching a proposal. Furthermore, they operate in an industry where everyone does 'no obligation free quotes' as a successful means of gaining customers.

Sure, they're doing SOME work. But they're not doing the whole job.

The more accurate comparison would be that in order to enter this contest, all you have to do is present an example of your work. But no, the contest is submit a complete design. Which is to say, asking the electrical contractors to do the whole job before even telling them if you want them to, let alone paying them for the work.

Wow. That's just so very not the point.

I think he's being rhetorically obtuse. I mean... Right?

Gotta be.

No, because your contest is a bad idea, that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and you insist on not getting it, just like calvin12. There's nothing to wait for, the process of scamming free labor from people is the problem, not the outcome. I think it's shitty and Expo is poorer for it. Take your $200 and a tshirt sale from someone that's not me I guess, because if you continue with this I won't support your business anymore.

Last year I went to Expo for the first time. I gave it press ( http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/10/the-custom-pinball-machines-of-chicagos-pinball-expo-2013/ ). I'm not some blowhard who hasn't even been to the show. But if this is what's behind it I want no part of it.

Maybe he should stop posting things that cause people to get offended? That would probably solve it. I don't know Mike, I've never "jumped in his ass" before, but instead of hearing the concerns he's just steamrolling ahead. So please don't act like this is some organized conspiracy against a poor innocent man. He can speak for himself, and has.

Fine, let people give estimates, show their portfolios, and "spend their time and effort" trying to get the gig if they want. But your contractors don't do the actual work until you've both agreed to it, and then you pay them and the people who didn't do the work don't get paid. Guess what? Doing the design is work. Just like electricians. Takes time and skill and experience and labor. We get it, you apparently don't, every example you bring up is the same thing.

Are you saying the work is great or asking everyone?

bbheadrub.gif

ffsake.gif

Art for me is simply a hobby, but I have only done free work for family, and those were actually gifts.

For some reason a lot of people think art should be cheap. We have an art festival in our city every year and the wife and I usually go. My in-laws went with us this year and were shocked at the prices, even items which were extremely good "deals" considering the obvious work done.

I've known a couple designers who have done some free work in hopes of landing an account, but never for just a one shot deal.

I think you meant were instead of we're (we are)

I fixed it for him Billy. We're not starting that up over here too. Heck, he's on your side in this thread, dont ruin it over auto correct! Lol.

Yup, at the festival we bought a very nice numbered print that was custom framed, and my sister almost had a heart attack when she found out we'd paid like $135 for it. I dont think we're taking them back next year.

If you're serious, why not do an age restriction on the contest? 12 years old and under.

I liked cal50's idea of giving the designer a piece of the profits.

I never disagreed with it being cheap labor, I actually agreed that it is exactly that. it is cheap labor, it is not *free* labor. Chosen design will be paid. unchosen, un used designs will not be. That is no different than the time and effort put into getting any other "job". Completely different story if This said that they will pay the winner and the non winners designs will not be paid but will still be used.

Mike > to answer your most important question...

YES, end the contest now. Stop with the silly nonsense.
Do the right thing by looking at a few electronic portfolios of work, solicit bids, select the artist you want, and pay them for their services.

This should be the same as any other contractor you use. (and no I don't mean the free labor of those that bring games to share so you can sell tickets to your show)

the contractors quoting the job will be spending their time (same as the artists who submit a shirt) to make a proposal (same as the artists) The quote will have to include the plans for how they will be running the lines and the and what they will be using along with drawings showing where new items will be placed (prep work like the shirt design) The un-chosen will be not hired nor paid for any of their any of the work they have done, nor will their plan be used (just like the shirts), The chosen design will be paid the agreed amount (just like the shirts), the chosen design is also subject to changes from what is submitted based on my input, just like the shirt contest rules except in this case the contractor will be making the changes based on my input to their design. In the shirt case designs may be changed after accepted as a basis but that will not be on the original artist to do. actually in this case the artists are getting a better deal than the contractors. Crappy pay, yes, but once they submit the design they are done.

This seems easy...

Hire a professional (like Ryan) to do the shirt...and meet his insanely low asking price.

Take his kickass design and sell shirts, posters, and whatever other promotional materials you want....profit, and enjoy.

STILL hold your contest for the 12-year-olds, or whomever wants to go for the $100 prize. Put that on a few shirts, posters, or whatever.

That way, you have an awesome shirt design by a professional...truly worthy of the 30th Pinball Expo, AND you get to still have a contest that will make some non-professional youngster happy. Everyone wins, and Expo is better because of it!

Pete

Meant to add this:

Well, this escalated quickly.

I'd spend a few hours dicking around in illustrator and pshop for $100 and to say i designed the tshirt....and i have a degree in graphic design. I just dont DO graphic design as my job, for a lot of the reasons i read in posts in this thread. Not getting paid for work done, work being stolen, etc. If they listed this as "Hey, amateur artists..." would it have made a difference?

Either way, contests are always fun. Submit your designs with a water mark over them for safety, dont see any harm in it.

Any ways, my $0.02, for what its worth. Ill be at the expo (work permitting) as always, every year. Its a Chicago institution.

exactly, chances are i'd buy Ryans and the contest one.

Now this is a great idea!

Issues are always resolved quicker this way versus shouting matches. Too many people go from 1 to 100 on the angry meter in one post without thinking things through. Solve problems, don't create more!

Yes I know, you didn't have to belabour the example while not addressing my already stated counterpoints to it:

• The contractors aren't doing the whole job in the hopes of being selected and paid for it, just a proposal/quote

• The proposal work they are doing is standard practice for their industry. They willingly offer this free service in order to get work.

Furthermore, you're crazy to think that artists are getting the better deal because they waste ALL of their time up front, rather than contractors who just waste some of it.

Both of your points are addressed. A true proposal is a lot of work, it is being done for free if they don't get chosen. I'm not talking about a "you want 2 can lights? that's $300" deal. According to some people here nobody but artists ever are expected to "work for free".

*In this case*, yes the artist is better off then the contractor. Once the shirt art is sent in if it is accepted, they are done, paid in full. If not accepted they didn't get the job, they are also done. The contractor still needs to do the work to an acceptable level to get paid in full after doing the front end work.

The shirt design is nothing more than a persons application for the job. This is not a multifaceted ad campaign. This is not getting $200 then being expected to do more after the fact. Any post acceptance adjustments are being done through Expo's people.

My old university had some statues put in a new building. The people who wanted the job had to submit designs of what they were wanted to do before being hired and paid. Only one was hired. There were drawings and models made by the artists, the ones who didn't get the job wasted their time and money with no payout. its part of the job.

This is the core misunderstanding / disagreement. For an artist, shirt design is the job. He's not submitting a proposal to manufacture garments.

(I know we're friends, but I'm with the artists on this one. )

I do get that, I'm for the artists getting paid too, check what I've said earlier, $100 is nothing if this is what you do for a living, but this contest wasn't aimed at pro artists. If they wanted to do it, they could. This was aimed at the "average" person. Its not "dear pro artists, please work cheap"

"Dear Pinball Enthusiast,

The staff of Pinball Expo is looking for your input and design
for a shirt that will be sold exclusively at Pinball Expo 2014"

you will get a better product if you back an artist and make it worth their while. If you make them compete for the chance to win a possible prize you will not get the awesome result that will sell out shirts and posters.

You also never know what will happen at a "judging" will it lose out to someone's kid sister? someone's best friend? too many variables. Why spend 40+ hours to lose. Have a separate art contest at expo for something else.

Pony up, and pick a horse.

-c

no doubt it will be better with a pro doing the work, its what they do.

You do have valid points calvin, but you're still illustrating that you don't understand the amount of work required to fully complete a t-shirt design. The fact that you compare it to a contractor's proposal proves it.

Look at the requirements in the OP. Photoshop and Illustrator-produced print-ready 300dpi artwork in a maximum of five colours … these are not requirements that an average person can understand and deliver. Heck, most design school students probably don't have a clue how to create and output artwork in 5 spot colours.

I'm over trying to convince anyone of anything, the facts are the facts, and only you can control how you feel about them. Clearly I'm not the only one who feels this way, and if Mike wants to piss people off that's his prerogative, go right on ahead and dig yourself in. calvin12 I think your examples are ridiculous and utterly off base, but I appreciate that you were at least willing to discuss it, unlike Mike who started the thread but is apparently unwilling to address the issues it raised.

At the end of the day I don't really give a F about a tshirt, and certainly not $100 bucks. What bothers me is the disrespect to the community, and specifically the part of it I identify with the strongest, that touches both my professional life and one way I interact with the hobby. And when the objection was voiced so clearly and politely the utter tone deaf response is baffling. This says to me that Mike doesn't really give a shit what people think, and isn't someone who's business I want to support. So be it. I'm sure he'll soldier on without my money or press just fine.

I hold out hope that the light will be seen and that Ryan will get the gig, in which case I'll withdraw my objection (for anyone who even cares), I'm not a vindictive person.

or in the instructions it clearly it can be hand drawn in 5 colors, which everyone can understand. The digitizing would be done by Expo in a hand drawn case.

Update:
It's been 24 hours since I had my brief phone-chat with Mike Pacak, at which time he told me that I'd receive a call back from him in, "2 to 8 hours." I gave him a follow-up call last night and a PM here on pinside in an effort to reconnect, but there's been no response. Based on Mike's last comment (after my attempts to reconnect), it seems as though Mike and Rob are sticking to their original plan of the $100 contest, which I will not be participating in. I think my wife said it best, "Trying to explain the value of art to them is like trying to explain the value of art to our landlord." Needless to say, I'm losing hope that this conversation will result in any significant change.

I'm saddened that Expo's founders won't soften and allow for a bit of self-reflexive behavior after reading through the countless examples of why this contest devalues art. I'm sure this thread is a difficult one to receive for Mike and Rob, but in between the strong opinions, there have been some down-to-earth suggestions for how to navigate this issue with a little more community sensitivity in mind. (See PMWolf's post above.)

Mike and Rob, if you do read this, I'm still here and willing to chat about a 30th Anniversary Expo design (with respect to my initially outlined terms), only because I think Expo, as a cultural event, is a worthwhile and significant one. It is located at the original epicenter of our hobby (although that's becoming increasingly diffused with every new company and boutique start-up) and consequently Expo is currently the most designer-rich event in our hobby. I'm choosing not to lose sight of that in the face of our differing opinions. So, had my wife and I not just closed on our first house last week (YAY!!!) and we still had the expendable income to attend Expo, we would.

I wish you both the best with planning your 30th anniversary show. Sounds like it's going to be a good one.

Sincerely,
Ryan Claytor

You gave it your best shot, Ryan. I know a guy having an event that same weekend who needs t-shirts, and is willing to spend money on quality work. I'll remind Terry to call you.

Ryan's way classier than me, you should totally listen to him even if you've tuned me out.

I really liked Ryan's PATZ design. The faces and all around gestures of the robots really caught my eye. I bought the nicer poster and hung it up. Never bought an Expo T-shirt as the designs never seemed to attract me.

Remember Expo really is all about the money, plain and simple.

Ryan, I don't believe there is anything illegal about making your own T-Shirts and selling them yourself via a forum. You could help with your families' finances if you know what I mean.

Paging "MATT McKEE"

Clearly what needs to happen now is Ryan needs to develop a shirt design for Terry (on contract) for the PBL open house this year.

Edit: Just noticed I glossed right over Yancy's post of the same variety.

Better yet, make it non event specific, I love PBL, I'd buy a PBL shirt if Ryan did one.

An EPIC start for Expo 30.

Epic fail, that is. Mike, Rob and calvin12 are the clueless trio and apparently don't understand why.

I still plan on attending Expo, but not going to buy a T-shirt or any other Expo merchandise if the designs are from this "contest". Maybe we should commission our own pinball T-shirt design that isn't Expo specific and sell it at a Expo.

That sucks you do some really good work. Maybe he will get back to you, hopefully.

I've repeatedly said Mike should hire Ryan. That has nothing to do with the contest.

Look at clientsfromhell.net to see what graphic designers & web designers go through. It makes me never want to do freelance anything ever.

The contest part is what gets you my clueless vote. Comparing it to an RFP was mind boggling. As someone who was involved in both requesting and responding to them in the computer industry for a good part of almost 30 years, I don't understand how anyone like you who claims to have experience with them could even make that comparison.

The original contest rules were exploitive and presumed that those here who had the talent (almost certainly graphics professionals or artists) would jump at the opportunity to give their time and talent for free. Everyone else in this thread sees that for what it is except you and Mike.

Respect breeds respect. Respect artists and designers.