(Topic ID: 197539)

Pinball Designers... Please listen!


By ASOA

2 years ago



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  • 175 posts
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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Jackontherocks
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    There are 175 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 4.
    #1 2 years ago

    Lots of new pins coming in the next upcoming year. Let's have a little discussion and hope they listen. Yea I know it's a long shot. But even if they don't it's a good topic. What are some things you hate that ruined a game? What are some things that make you love a particular game. What cool ideas would you like to see incorporated in your next pin? What kind of modes..scoring multipliers..everything you like and would like to see in the next big title? JP is rumoured what kind of layout and toys would you like to see in that game or what ideas would you have for a new Gardiens of the galaxy? What about the new ACDC Premium Vault? Tell us your likes and dislikes?

    12
    #2 2 years ago

    they should have never moved away from score reels and chimes

    #3 2 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    they should have never moved away from score reels and chimes

    They never should have added flippers.

    #4 2 years ago

    After playing SW I would say tame it down on the multiplier frenzy but that is probably a coding issue more than design.
    Ramps. Cool and unique ramps. Just love them.
    Add More magnets in strange places on the playfield or just put one on the center of the playfield on a certain mode. Creates unpredictably. Taf and GNR are great!

    18
    #5 2 years ago

    I'd like to get away from the whole stop n go select a mode thing. Let the board, inserts, and pinball dictate the pace of the modes and stacking.

    #6 2 years ago

    I wish they'd stick to the K.I.S.S. rule: Keep It Simple Stupid.

    21
    #7 2 years ago

    Actual bash toys. Not hitting a standup under a "bash" toy that activates the toy, and certainly not a "bash" toy on a spring.
    You hit the actual molded bash toy itself and it goes thunk and reacts in some cool way.

    And what Eskaybee said, About letting the playfield and inserts, etc dictate. I remember Gomez defending why Stern still used dot matrix instead of LCD screens, because "its about what's under the glass blah blah blah" and he was right. So why, when they finally put in an LCD display, did they abandon that notion. Now it is clearly (with Star Wars at least) more about what's on the display, than the mechanical elements and the playfield inserts/art. Basically, less digital, more analog.

    #8 2 years ago
    Quoted from dsuperbee:

    They never should have added flippers.

    They never should have used electricity.

    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from Eskaybee:

    I'd like to get away from the whole stop n go select a mode thing. Let the board, inserts, and pinball dictate the pace of the modes and stacking.

    I also think this post should include code ideas for pinball released recently with marginal codes . And then some articulate forum members send the collected data/ ideas/feedback to the designers . That is what Pinsider " Eskaybee " did with STERN STAR TREK and I believe Steve Ritchie listened. Corrcet me if I'm wrong but Eskaybee actually sent e-mail to Steve and my have even talked with him. Proactive
    #87 3 years ago
    OP

    SKB
    Eskaybee

    Pinside member
    US Hesperia, CA
    5y 100k 8,651 2 29
    Hey guys, news comes in from the man himself. Enjoy:
    "Tanio, myself and others on the team are reading the Pinside ST threads, especially “Star Trek= Work. Proposed Solutions Inside”. What we really like is that you are all conducting yourselves like intelligent gentlemen, carefully describing your feelings on how we could make the code more fun and exciting. We are taking in everything, and we’re grateful for your input. The ST problems you have described will be our focal points for solutions and creating fun, rewarding change is our goal.”
    “I read Pinside every day, and there’s usually a lot of hate mixed in with some constructive and interesting points. I saw no hate anywhere in this thread, and it goes a long way toward taking Pinside seriously. If you want your needs and concerns addressed, this is the model way to present your thoughts. Thanks.”
    Steve Ritchie

    10
    #10 2 years ago

    There are a few things on my wish list:

    I'd like to see more story-based games. Not just scenes from a movie shuffled into a random order like Star Wars, but gameplay that tells a complete story with a beginning, middle and end, where a player's choices effect their consequences. Getting a high score doesn't interest me - I'm way more invested in completing a quest or a story line.

    A departure from the standard fan layout. Any departure at all, really. Even a game with Bally-style reverse in lanes would be fantastic.

    A mechanical, interactive playfield toy. Think MM's castle and POTC's ship, rather than a passive sculpture like Sparky or Gene Simmons. It's been over a decade since we had a really good, innovative and engaging toy that's fun to interact with.

    Save Multiball for a special occasion. It should be something that's earned and able to be achieved once or twice per game. Looking at Star Wars videos, it seems like you're in a Multiball setting about 70% Of the time, which seems exhausting and frustrating.

    #11 2 years ago
    Quoted from TopMoose:

    Save Multiball for a special occasion. It should be something that's earned and able to be achieved once or twice per game. Looking at Star Wars videos, it seems like you're in a Multiball setting about 70% Of the time, which seems exhausting and frustrating.

    Seems like a brute force/lowest common denominator thing going on with Star Wars. "People like multiball, lets do lots of multiball, people will like that" "People love big scores, lets make sure the score is huge"

    11
    #12 2 years ago

    It could be argued that Brian Eddy cracked the code of what modern pinball players want with AFM and MM. As was said before, there is beauty in simplicity. I would like to see a back to basics approach with good quality hardware and an immersive play experience. Things are getting a little bit out of hand with rulesets nowadays. A classic pin should be easy to start playing with clear goals, but with nuances for the experienced player. Once games got "deeper" than say ST:TNG the casual player gets confused and will not pop quarters in the machine. This is the pinball slippery slope. I think for pinball to thrive again manufacturers cannot dismiss the casual player.

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    Seems like a brute force/lowest common denominator thing going on with Star Wars. "People like multiball, lets do lots of multiball, people will like that" "People love big scores, lets make sure the score is huge"

    Agreed. Also, the purpose of pinball has changed. It used to be "let's make a game someone can enjoy for 20 minutes while waiting for a table at a restaurant."

    Now it's "Let's make a game specifically for PAPA tournaments. And make sure it's so complicated and difficult to play that home users can't achieve the final wizard mode after a year or more of practice."

    #14 2 years ago

    The big companies have become " multiball" happy for sure. Multiball should be an achievement, not a given. When there are too many multiballs in a game the experience becomes convoluted and a sensory overload.

    #15 2 years ago

    Yeah, that is the one thing that's just 'too much' on Star Wars. Did we really need like 7 multiball modes? It's too easily exploitable IMO, removing stacking would fix that, but it would also make the game a *horrible* slog so there's no real viable way to fix it.

    It's the modern Stargate, really, in terms of the crazy amount of multiballs.

    #16 2 years ago

    I am really enjoying all the magnet action on DI. Would love to see more of it in future games.

    #17 2 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Did we really need like 7 multiball modes?

    YES

    #18 2 years ago

    Closest thing to a modern game doing what I actually want to see is Total Nuclear Annihilation, which is why I ordered one.

    I think it's fine that Stern does Stern games, there's a market for them, and plenty of people like their style. I just hope for more competition doing actually different things, and not just racing to see who can make a more expensive game. Dialed In seems pretty cool, but it's not really an answer to my issue with Stern titles like Star Wars.

    But props to JJP for trying, because what I really want to see less of are licenses. So boring. Create something new, something original, that's what I'm interested in. I don't need to hear my favorite movie lines because I hit the lit shot. Show me something I wasn't expecting, instead of trying to make everything overly familiar.

    #19 2 years ago

    Ramps
    Toy
    drop targets
    kick out hole
    Kick back lane
    No Magnets
    No more than 3 flippers

    #20 2 years ago

    Unfortunately Stern will never make an unlicensed theme. I believe Gary Stern said as much

    #21 2 years ago

    I agree with that there should be more new and unique ramps. I'm just a fan of them. I also agree to many multi-balls can be exhausting.

    It may have been done before, I don't know... but what about if machine could have an immersive/complex rule set BUT ALSO had an option for the player to select between game play before the start of the game:

    (1) casual / fun play / novice (simple rule set, many multi-balls, easier to complete modes, longer timers)
    (2) tourney / wizard play / expert.. whatever (full rule set, multi-balls EARNED, all modes active, shorter timers)

    I dont see that it would be that hard to program a machine to exclude certain things based on a players choice of game. It would also allow novice players, children and experienced players to enjoy the SAME game. Maybe even (in multi-player) you could even select which player plays which mode? That way you could play a game against your children and they would feel like they can compete. Even the high scores could be separated to avoid people selecting a harder rule set simply to try to get their name on the board, and not truly just enjoying the game play. Seems like it could add longevity to a machine for both HUO and location machines because you would want to master both modes.

    Just my 2 cents, and like i said it may have been done/tried before.

    23
    #22 2 years ago

    Said it before and got laughed at but I'll say it again.

    Skill level selections. Pinball is supposed to be fun and something you can do with your family that all will enjoy. I would LOVE seeing a game come out that the outlane post are built into a mechanical mech that will adjust based off the player selected setting. You select novice and the post moves in, you select normal mode they go to the middle and if you select tournament then they open up. This could even allow coders to make certain modes harder/easier in games adding to the fun of the game.

    You now have handicap in games which makes things more fun for all skills. You no longer have the good player spending all night on games because the game is set up easy and you also no longer have the novice player losing their balls immediately because the game is set up PAPA style.

    Just to many option for this that goes beyond the post. They can adjust flipper and sling strength as well based off setting too.

    Give me adjustable skill settings that can be change player to player PLEASE!

    12
    #23 2 years ago

    i would like stern to please change the electronic knocker sound with cow bell.

    that is all.

    #24 2 years ago

    I really like games with a third and maybe even fourth flipper. I believe the last 3 flipper pro game was ST. Having more flippers adds more shots and more interesting playfield layout.

    I also wish Stern did a better job with labeling inserts and callouts to better explain how to play. I guess deep code is what people want but it just seems so difficult to learn how to play some of their games when you only get a chance to play once in a while. In general, I just don't get why there are not 100's of different callouts in games. That has to be the easiest thing to code and memory storage is cheap. I also don't see why Stern cannot have an option on their new larger, color displays to explain basic rules like how to get to multiball and how to play out modes. Maybe even have a tutorial mode that cuts out the music and goes into detail what to shoot for.

    Art and general presentation is another thing I don't understand. It seems like every games should have top notch art, plastics, and such. That should be the easiest thing to do. I suppose there are licensing restraints but still doesn't explain why some Stern games look pretty bad and some look awesome. All arcade games should have an amazing look to them that draw people in to play. Home buyers will also line up to buy games based purely on pictures. Games that don't look good have to depend on gameplay to sell but not many people get a chance to play these games on location or at shows.

    #25 2 years ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    I would LOVE seeing a game come out that the outlane post are built into a mechanical mech that will adjust based off the player selected setting. You select novice and the post moves in, you select normal mode they go to the middle and if you select tournament then they open up. This could even allow coders to make certain modes harder/easier in games adding to the fun of the game.

    In practical theory, what you ask for can be accomplished in code via the "Keep Shooting" short ball time re-fire(s). There is no real need to incorporate the added expense, and ultimate mechanical failure of a feature to change the outlanes. You can simple write an algorithm to try to detect a good player vs a novice player. Or, as you suggest, allow a choice to be made at the start of a game removing the Bozo Ball feature and therefore somehow awarding higher values to the player. But, unless the Mode choice is Global for all players, obviously, scores will not be comparable between players.

    The cost of adding such a mechanical assembly to a game, would simply prevent the designer from incorporating another feature that may enhance the play on the playfield for all the players.

    #26 2 years ago

    I know the designers don't have a say in this, but for Gary Stern please diversify the themes.
    Everything seems to be a Marvel or Band theme with a huge movie franchise thrown in on occasion. TWD was such a breath of fresh air. I hope they give us something like that again. A Evil Dead machine would be perfect.

    10
    #27 2 years ago

    Yeah, it's been said to the point of being cliche... but more world under glass stuff. Want to see the ball do more unique things. More magic tricks... like the trunk in TOM or mist multiball from BSD.

    Would like to see more use of divertors to make shots into other shots. Seems like that was done much more in the past. Think Shadow. Ramps have become sorta formulaic.

    Would like to see modes that feel like they're telling a story... rather than just lighting different arrows.

    Agree about giving more meaning to multiballs and wizard modes. Make it clear on how I'm supposed to earn these things and make me earn it.

    Simpler rules! Lose this mode stacking tournament bullshit. It's tedious and not what pinball is about.

    #28 2 years ago
    Quoted from Frippertron:

    Unfortunately Stern will never make an unlicensed theme. I believe Gary Stern said as much

    Don't be so sure about this, I believe one may be in the works.

    #29 2 years ago

    I would love Stern to make some creative original themes. On a separate note someone mentioned Evil Dead. I think we have our best shot at that theme with Keith Elwin. He said it's a dream theme of his, so fingers crossed.

    #30 2 years ago

    I think mode stacking only works when it's simply done. Like the triple stack on BSD or collecting all the madness modes for multiball madness on MM. It's clear and has a big payoff. It feels like on a game like SW the mode stacking prevents you from understanding what each individual mode is all about, through storyline and what shots are needed for a given mode. It turns something that could be really fun and interesting by itself into duck soup. The modes end up lacking personality and things become samey.

    #31 2 years ago
    Quoted from Frippertron:

    Unfortunately Stern will never make an unlicensed theme. I believe Gary Stern said as much

    I mean, it is what it is, Stern has a product they pump, and licenses are the easiest way to do it. I own several, but I'm just bored with the entire concept now. I'm old enough to remember when having a licensed video game meant your game was trash and we looked down on it.

    But this isn't a "Stern" topic, so my wish is for competition that actually tries more ideas. Houdini is kind of a middle ground, so that's cool. I mentioned DI, the price is a tough pill to swallow there though, I can't recommend anyone spend that kind of money on a pin.

    Buy TNA! Show Spooky that unlicensed games with different ideas sell. We need more.

    #32 2 years ago

    Different lower third configurations. Scissor flippers, reversed in/outlanes, lower pop bumpers, ball-save gates and posts, make nudging matter.

    Different playfield dimensions. Longer, wider, taller, shorter, backbox play, something, anything different.

    Love the idea of moving outlane posts that could be set per player, or change per mode.

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rascal_H:

    Simpler rules!

    +1

    When i was younger and video games came out, i loved Centipede, Monn Patrol and other easy-to-understand-games. Hours of fun.
    Then came the time with oh more graphics oh more details oh more strategy. I lost the interest.

    So i feel today, played SW LE and played the best i could on a machine which was unknown for me. And lost the interest.
    I owned NBA, absolute simple rules, was the dark time of pinball, no money for deep coding. But it was fun, fun, fun.
    They recycled this flying ball in AS. Everybody loves this. So, maybe less deeper rules and some more toys with cool effects (IJ4 Trunk was also recycled in AS....) would be my wish.

    #34 2 years ago
    Quoted from westofrome:

    Different lower third configurations. Scissor flippers, reversed in/outlanes, lower pop bumpers, ball-save gates and posts, make nudging matter.
    Different playfield dimensions. Longer, wider, taller, shorter, backbox play, something, anything different.
    Love the idea of moving outlane posts that could be set per player, or change per mode.

    I remember reading that one of the B/W designers wanted to try a fan-shaped playfield layout - narrow in the front and wide in the back, to maximize shot efficiency. It would require a new cabinet design, but it sounds like a cool idea.

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    In practical theory, what you ask for can be accomplished in code via the "Keep Shooting" short ball time re-fire(s). There is no real need to incorporate the added expense, and ultimate mechanical failure of a feature to change the outlanes. You can simple write an algorithm to try to detect a good player vs a novice player. Or, as you suggest, allow a choice to be made at the start of a game removing the Bozo Ball feature and therefore somehow awarding higher values to the player. But, unless the Mode choice is Global for all players, obviously, scores will not be comparable between players.
    The cost of adding such a mechanical assembly to a game, would simply prevent the designer from incorporating another feature that may enhance the play on the playfield for all the players.

    Cost is not prohibitive. It can be done by a servos which bought in bulk are dirt cheap.

    I agree on the point difference but that doesn't fix the real problem. It's the time between balls that I'm hoping it can solve for. It's no fun to play with a group of people just to have one person play for 10 mins while the other 3 get 30 seconds on the game. It's an effort to make pinball more fun and to bring people together.

    #36 2 years ago

    Simply, I wish games had more of a focus and relation to the theme (licensed or not) they represent. Its starting to feel more and more like whitewoods get designed and whatever license of the month is available gets slapped on. I'm not saying the 'story' has to be deep but there is something to be said for games driven by an overarching or a few goals related to that theme. GB you collect ghosts. You kill zombies in TWD. HS and Getaway you are speeding up to get away from the cops. Having plalyfield 'toys' to match really helps, too. I mean, you can say what you will about Wrestlemania but its a wrestling game with a wrestling rink in it. Makes sense to me. Then you get SW and there a little figure on a spring?

    You'd think Star Wars versus anything (in any field) would be a no contest but I think a lot of the reason DI has been pulling its weight is because it has a simple story and integrates the gimmicks of the playfield into that story.

    Oh, and star rollovers. Man, do I love those things. I am tempted to buy a Strikes and Spares just so I can get all ten of those sweet rollovers.

    #37 2 years ago
    Quoted from deluge:

    Simply, I wish games had more of a focus and relation to the theme (licensed or not) they represent. Its starting to feel more and more like whitewoods get designed and whatever license of the month is available gets slapped on. I'm not saying the 'story' has to be deep but there is something to be said for games driven by an overarching or a few goals related to that theme. GB you collect ghosts. You kill zombies in TWD. HS and Getaway you are speeding up to get away from the cops. Having plalyfield 'toys' to match really helps, too. I mean, you can say what you will about Wrestlemania but its a wrestling game with a wrestling rink in it. Makes sense to me. Then you get SW and there a little figure on a spring?
    You'd think Star Wars versus anything (in any field) would be a no contest but I think a lot of the reason DI has been pulling its weight is because it has a simple story and integrates the gimmicks of the playfield into that story.
    Oh, and star rollovers. Man, do I love those things. I am tempted to buy a Strikes and Spares just so I can get all ten of those sweet rollovers.

    This! My favorite game is TOTAN, where you get to attack rocs, battle a cyclops, compete in a camel race and fight skeleton warriors and an evil genie. Compare that to ACDC, where you... Hit drop targets and shoot ramps. My point is that theme integration is essential.

    Also, +1 on star rollovers.

    #38 2 years ago

    Star rollovers are a real bitch with modern clear coat, the JJP "button" style does make more sense, even if they're not as cool.

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Star rollovers are a real bitch with modern clear coat, the JJP "button" style does make more sense, even if they're not as cool.

    Like the ones on WCS94.... those are fun rollovers

    #40 2 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Create something new, something original, that's what I'm interested in. I don't need to hear my favorite movie lines because I hit the lit shot. Show me something I wasn't expecting, instead of trying to make everything overly familiar.

    I agree 1000 percent. Unfortunately, stern is just following the money and knows that themes sell games. It's alot harder to make unlicensed games sell

    (Yes I do like stern games I own 3 of them but wish there were more original ideas)

    #41 2 years ago
    Quoted from TopMoose:

    Getting a high score doesn't interest me - I'm way more invested in completing a quest or a story line.

    I've been saying this for a while now, and completely agree. It seems like the next logical evolution as well. Like when arcade video games were all about the points, but then Mario came around and made it all about getting from level to level, world to world, to rescue a princess. Sure, there's a score just for the tradition of having it, but did anyone ever look at it? I sure didn't. I think honestly, Jersey Jack will be the one to bring that idea to the table if it ever comes to fruition. Seems like it could be their wheelhouse.

    #42 2 years ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    Said it before and got laughed at but I'll say it again.
    Skill level selections. Pinball is supposed to be fun and something you can do with your family that all will enjoy. I would LOVE seeing a game come out that the outlane post are built into a mechanical mech that will adjust based off the player selected setting. You select novice and the post moves in, you select normal mode they go to the middle and if you select tournament then they open up. This could even allow coders to make certain modes harder/easier in games adding to the fun of the game.
    You now have handicap in games which makes things more fun for all skills. You no longer have the good player spending all night on games because the game is set up easy and you also no longer have the novice player losing their balls immediately because the game is set up PAPA style.
    Just to many option for this that goes beyond the post. They can adjust flipper and sling strength as well based off setting too.
    Give me adjustable skill settings that can be change player to player PLEASE!

    Yes and yes! I wanted to set my met up difficult by my friends keep telling me the tilt is too tight, or I should move the outlanes in or the ball save is too short.

    It Sucks because i want my non pin friends to have fun and not feel pinball is too hard but when I set it up easy I beat the hobbit completely in about a week and then sold it.

    #43 2 years ago

    Why doesn't anyone just make a pinball unit about flowers? No themes, no rule set, no plastics or ramps or callouts. Just flowers. Simple, pure, undiluted and breathtaking.

    #44 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mfsrc791:

    I agree 1000 percent. Unfortunately, stern is just following the money and knows that themes sell games. It's alot harder to make unlicensed games sell
    (Yes I do like stern games I own 3 of them but wish there were more original ideas)

    Licenses sell. Well, they sell easier at least. And just being "original" isn't enough. Look at Full Throttle vs Alien. Leaving company woes aside, obviously one has higher interest.

    And honestly whatever issues Alien has, theme integration isn't one.

    But what if Heighway hadn't gotten conservative and backed off a truly original game for a more generic racing theme? Might have been a different story.

    Being original means you gotta work harder. There aren't video clips to fall back on. There aren't pre built characters. No movie lines, or band music to inspire you.

    But it also means there's no studio holding you back. No dumb rules about art.

    Before getting involved with Alien I was working on an original game theme. Who knows what I would have done, maybe it would have been built or maybe not, but I really enjoyed exploring my own ideas. My own way to do rules to integrate with original characters and ideas.

    Who knows if I'll ever do it. But I wish these talented people who are working on pins had that same freedom to show us how they'd do it without handcuffs.

    #45 2 years ago

    I want more surprises of not knowing where the ball is going to show up via subways with either staged balls or an under playfield diverter.

    #46 2 years ago

    Black Knight 3000

    #47 2 years ago
    Quoted from holmstarrunner:

    I want more surprises of not knowing where the ball is going to show up via subways with either staged balls or an under playfield diverter.

    I know Lyman preaches against that. I can understand that, as cool as it is, it's pretty player hostile in that until you learn it all you're going to feel a little helpless sometimes.

    It's all part of the eternal challenge: how do you welcome new players while still making an interesting game for experienced players?

    What if you staged the balls to randomly release them in add a ball situations?

    #48 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mfsrc791:

    Black Knight 3000

    OMG YES.

    #49 2 years ago

    I'm pretty new to pinball but I have been a gamer the better part of my life so I always think(dream)of a way to to play against other people with your pin across the map,internet baby. Think of all the online tournaments we could have man that would be fun. I also think more adventuress games with levels that have bosses to defeat to advance to the next stage (level). By bosses I mean every shot you make would take life from him/her and weakening till he/she is defeated and on to the next level/ stage.

    #50 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mfsrc791:

    Black Knight 3000

    Oh it is available. They called it GoT.

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