(Topic ID: 22722)

Pinball Arcade - Star Trek The Next Generation Kickstarter


By jrolson

7 years ago



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  • 58 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by sylvan_glade
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There are 121 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
#101 7 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Evidently Farsight has found a way for people to build their business for them AND rake in the profits at the same time.

I think it is a stretch to say that fan-sourced funding builds a business for you. And it certainly doesn't equal 'raking in profits' before a product has even been made. A few high profile products have funded well past their goals, but that is because the project, and the rewards, are so compelling to so many people. It's a win-win if I ever saw it. But typically, if anything, Kickstarter is a risk for the backers.

Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

I'm not mad/angry, I just will never contribute because I think it's a bit sleazy,

Is everyone that funds a project with Kickstarter sleazy, or just FarSight?

#102 7 years ago
Quoted from accidental:

I think it is a stretch to say that fan-sourced funding builds a business for you. And it certainly doesn't equal 'raking in profits' before a product has even been made. A few high profile products have funded well past their goals, but that is because the project, and the rewards, are so compelling to so many people. It's a win-win if I ever saw it. But typically, if anything, Kickstarter is a risk for the backers.

Is everyone that funds a project with Kickstarter sleazy, or just FarSight?

Fair questions, I would say that if they used Kickstarter to get the basic program off the ground, and then maybe a few tables I might contribute...and agree. But now, with their success, it's sleazy IMO. Of course your free to disagree, and continue to contribute, but I won't. When a company says 'if we reach x goal, we'll release the table' it's a hostage situation, and a business model that I absolutely disagree with. If they believed in their product and have received many purchases they wouldn't need to rely upon those tactics...perhaps they didn't believe in that tactic early on, but they certainly do now...and that's even MORE sleazy IMO. Hell, if people want to contribute so I can get tables at a 'cheaper price', then so be it but it still doesn't forgive the dishonesty with requesting monetary compensation before they release a table.

#103 7 years ago

A hostage situation? Mister Fantastic couldn't stretch that far

#104 7 years ago
Quoted from accidental:

A hostage situation? Mister Fantastic couldn't stretch that far

Damn right it is, you just choose to ignore it. And that's cool, I don't argue with you...I just think you're wrong.

#105 7 years ago

Hmm ... Maybe a different analogy would communicate your perspective better than that of a hostage situation. Hostages have a right to freedom that was otherwise taken away with threats of violence. We don't have a right to STTNG on The Pinball Arcade that was otherwise taken away with threats of violence.

#106 7 years ago
Quoted from prock:

I, like many, started playing pins on locations and ended up buying a pin because of Pinball Arcade. Hard to argue about their business model. Whatever works.... works.

Quoted from frolic:

Hello, first post. I just wanted to say this is EXACTLY my case. I was re-introduced to pinball with Pinball Arcade on my ipad. That has now brought me here, and am now in the market for my first machine and eventual games room for my home. My four and eight year old sons have now been introduced to pinball as well.
I won't be part of their kickstarter, for various reasons already given in this thread, but I will buy the table when it is released, and will continue to explore this new hobby in the real world as well.
If a small % of Pinball Arcade users follow the same path as me, this could be a big deal.
Anyhow, glad to be here.

Very cool. I'm excited that my brother is now also loving pinball because of this game too. He never cared about it before, so I can thank Farsight for that.

#107 7 years ago
Quoted from accidental:

Hmm ... Maybe a different analogy would communicate your perspective better than that of a hostage situation. Hostages have a right to freedom that was otherwise taken away with threats of violence. We don't have a right to STTNG on The Pinball Arcade that was otherwise taken away with threats of violence.

There are many meanings of hostage, but the base meaning is holding something back based upon some type of compensation, I think the term fits. They're saying 'pay us 40 THOUSAND dollars (or whatever insane amount it was) and we'll do the table', otherwise they're not. That's BS, by now they should be able to pay the 40K AND do the table, because that's what a business is risk and reward, not reward and reward.

#108 7 years ago

I would but Farsight's customer service sucks so bad I refuse. I was on board til the MB machine was made and I lost all my paid tables and noone at google or farsight was willing to help. No refund nothing....up yours farsight

#109 7 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

You do realize that Farsite Studios makes the Williams Collection?

That was my whole point. The Williams collection did not have any problems on better quality TV's but the Pinball Arcade made by the same people does have problems.

#110 7 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

There are many meanings of hostage, but the base meaning is holding something back based upon some type of compensation, I think the term fits. They're saying 'pay us 40 THOUSAND dollars (or whatever insane amount it was) and we'll do the table', otherwise they're not. That's BS, by now they should be able to pay the 40K AND do the table, because that's what a business is risk and reward, not reward and reward.

Sorry Matt, I don't mean to argue with you I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from on this.

The Kickstarter ingredients are 'projects', 'pledges' (otherwise known as donations) and 'rewards'. While I see your point, I feel that it's an overly cynical angle on it to think if of these as 'hostages', 'ransoms' and 'freedom'..

I don't think there is any reason not to believe FarSight's pitch on these two Kickstarter tables.

The way I see it is the way they pitched it. They've already done the risk/reward analysis on these tables and come to the conclusion, upon completing the license agreements, that they would have to sell the tables for a price far higher than most people will pay in order to break even on the licensing fees. Not only is this a risk that people will refuse to pay it and they'll be out of pocket on the licensing fees, but it also means that the tables aren't available to the widest possible range of people — which directly contradicts their goal for making The Pinball Arcade in the first place. If they couldn't get the tables out to everyone, then they'd rather spent time, energy and resources on recreating tables that CAN be affordable for everyone rather than make a few elite tables for an elite few.

Kickstarter was an opportunity for people who also support FarSight's goal — of digitally preserving pinball and making it accessible to as many people as possible — to enable them to make these tables at a price that everyone can enjoy them, and even get a copy when it is released as a reward.

You certainly can't call FarSight sleazy for taking advantage of an opportunity that is freely available to them. If you were starting a business and a family member offered to help fund it, would you turn them down? And before you say this isn't the same thing because in this case FarSight is the one ASKING for money, remember that FarSight started this campaign because their fans were offering them money to enable them to bring these tables to life, and Kickstarter is a brilliant new model to make this happen.

One other point: if anything, Kickstarter is the best funding method for consumer-facing products like this. Kickstarter makes the investors the customers, and this leads to a customer-focused product, not an investor-focused product. The sleazy alternative would be an ad-supported model that monetizes the customer's habits and negatively affects the experience.

#111 7 years ago
Quoted from accidental:

Sorry Matt, I don't mean to argue with you I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from on this.
The Kickstarter ingredients are 'projects', 'pledges' (otherwise known as donations) and 'rewards'. While I see your point, I feel that it's an overly cynical angle on it to think if of these as 'hostages', 'ransoms' and 'freedom'..
I don't think there is any reason not to believe FarSight's pitch on these two Kickstarter tables.
The way I see it is the way they pitched it. They've already done the risk/reward analysis on these tables and come to the conclusion, upon completing the license agreements, that they would have to sell the tables for a price far higher than most people will pay in order to break even on the licensing fees. Not only is this a risk that people will refuse to pay it and they'll be out of pocket on the licensing fees, but it also means that the tables aren't available to the widest possible range of people — which directly contradicts their goal for making The Pinball Arcade in the first place. If they couldn't get the tables out to everyone, then they'd rather spent time, energy and resources on recreating tables that CAN be affordable for everyone rather than make a few elite tables for an elite few.
Kickstarter was an opportunity for people who also support FarSight's goal — of digitally preserving pinball and making it accessible to as many people as possible — to enable them to make these tables at a price that everyone can enjoy them, and even get a copy when it is released as a reward.
You certainly can't call FarSight sleazy for taking advantage of an opportunity that is freely available to them. If you were starting a business and a family member offered to help fund it, would you turn them down? And before you say this isn't the same thing because in this case FarSight is the one ASKING for money, remember that FarSight started this campaign because their fans were offering them money to enable them to bring these tables to life, and Kickstarter is a brilliant new model to make this happen.
One other point: if anything, Kickstarter is the best funding method for consumer-facing products like this. Kickstarter makes the investors the customers, and this leads to a customer-focused product, not an investor-focused product. The sleazy alternative would be an ad-supported model that monetizes the customer's habits and negatively affects the experience.

You choose to believe that and I choose go not, that's cool. But the fact is, the investors actually get NOTHING in return for their investment. Well, not exactly true, but not a very big return when you can just wait for the table or pack and pay half as much. I said before that I wouldn't think it was sleazy if and when they were first starting, but they certainly have the capital to re-invest at this point, that's what's sleazy to me. I have no problem with people who want to contribute to a vision, I just won't and I've been clear why.

Playing TZ or STTNG on a virtual device is NOT worth a donation when I can go play the real thing for .75 a game at a couple different places around me. Although, I would gladly pay a 5 spot if the tables were available on a virtual device, that's the big difference in our view I think. I guess lucky for me there are a ton of people that think otherwise.

#112 7 years ago
Quoted from Wickedquickss:

I would but Farsight's customer service sucks so bad I refuse. I was on board til the MB machine was made and I lost all my paid tables and noone at google or farsight was willing to help. No refund nothing....up yours farsight

I still have a major issue with the leader boards (two games are swapped and my scores don't match), and there are a lot of bugs in the games IMO, right through flippers etc. But, for the money, I think it's pretty good. Although, I really want a Windows version at least when the new Microsoft Surface devices come out, let alone Windows Phone.

#113 7 years ago

I will donate by continuing go buy their tables at 4.99 a pop. Other than that, unless they will provide something extra for their supporters who go above and beyond, good luck is all I can say. Nothing for free in this world, plain and simple.

#114 7 years ago

My point Matt is I can only play free versions after I purchased the starter pack and the first 2 add ons....MB comes out and I lost every machine....and I can't upload them...I try to and the program shuts down.

#115 7 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Playing TZ or STTNG on a virtual device is NOT worth a donation when I can go play the real thing for .75 a game at a couple different places around me. Although, I would gladly pay a 5 spot if the tables were available on a virtual device, that's the big difference in our view I think. I guess lucky for me there are a ton of people that think otherwise.

Bully for you. Not everyone has those tables near them. There isn't a publicly-available, fully-functional TZ, STTNG, MM, CFTBL, or, frankly, ANY of the Pinball Arcade tables anywhere near Los Angeles. The closest guarantee for some of them is down in the San Diego area.

Edit: Also, assuming that the tables are only going to be priced at $5 is a stretch. Of the presently-available tables, only two (Monster Bash and CFTBL) have secondary licensing issues*, and both of those are the same licensor - Universal. Universal LOVES to get their Movie Monsters into as many media opportunities as possible, because it keeps them relevant without Universal having to spend a dime. As a result, their licensing fees for the Movie Monsters are extremely low. I'd be willing to bet that they licensed for both of those tables as a combo pack, and the licensing fee was under 5k. But we have no way of knowing that, short of someone leaking a confidential contract.

*Sorry, I forgot RBION. Ripley's is known for being rather lassiez-faire with their licensing.

In contrast, both Twilight Zone and Star Trek are major properties, and the licensing is tight on both. Trek, in particular, has lots of tertiary licenses - the likenesses of everyone whose face is on the table. TZ, in contrast, only has one major tertiary license - the estate of Rod Serling. Both of those licenses are huge, compared to the licenses for games like Medieval Madness and Funhouse.

#116 7 years ago
Quoted from Nekojin:

The closest guarantee for some of them is down in the San Diego area.

There isn't a STTNG and CFTBL in the wild down here. However, SD does have a lot of pins.

http://www.pinballmap.com/sandiego#

#117 7 years ago

Farsight isn't putting a gun to anybody's head.

If you want to donate then do so. If not, then don't. Simple...

#118 7 years ago
Quoted from jarjarisgod:

Farsight isn't putting a gun to anybody's head.
If you want to donate then do so. If not, then don't. Simple...

But they made a smart choice and avoided financial risk by taking an opportunity that presented itself with a new project funding model. That's worth getting up in arms about because REAL businesses should take risks. Wait …

#119 7 years ago

Edit: Oops, the post I was responding to wasn't a NEW post. Never mind.

1 week later
#120 7 years ago

Goal has been reached. Congrats!

#121 7 years ago
Quoted from Wickedquickss:

My point Matt is I can only play free versions after I purchased the starter pack and the first 2 add ons....MB comes out and I lost every machine....and I can't upload them...I try to and the program shuts down.

Man that suckS! Did this start with the new software update or was this somehow triggered when downloading the newest map pack. I played TOTAN after the software update and noticed no changes. Did not try any others

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