Highlands Ranch, CO
Are there patents still in place that prevent other manufacturers from replicating the pinball 2000 platform? The potential for this system is just mind boggling. I would LOVE to see this concept rise again.
(Topic ID: 37658)
I'm afraid you get back to, how much interest will there really be ? How many could you sell.
Nucore posted on RGP some time back about doing new games and possibly Wizard Blocks. I figure they had the best shot, and didn't do it.
So anyone else would have an even bigger hill to climb.
I'd like to see it happen, I just don't see it though.
LTG : )
someone already modified demo man with that sort of interface, so it can't be too difficult if a hobbyist was able to get a basic interface. Maybe if someone finishes a mod like this and releases it (like color DMD), it will at least spark an aftermarket.
it's just that everyone is losing their heads over the color DMD concept and it is SO far below what pin2k is capable of. It kind of amazes me that so many people have forgotten where pinball was heading. pin2k was fairly successful and I think it would have done well with a couple more games under it's belt. Imagine a game like tron with full screen video reflected on the playfield. What about a Dragons Lair pinball using animated scenes? with the 2.1 sound and synchronized light show. Amazing to say the least. AND not replicable on a home console.
I bring this up because I showed a friend my RFM today and his jaw hit the floor. He is 21 and said he has never seen anything so cool. this spoke volumes to me.
I know it is probably wishful thinking. But a new 'holopin' would be a NiB game i would be interested in having.
Anything based on a PC (such as Pin2000) is doomed to failure.
Already owners of these things are having massive problems due to the rapidly changing face of PCs.
That's why Nucore was born in the first place.
Forget basing ANY pinball on a PC - just waiting for disaster.
Quoted from Homepin:Anything based on a PC (such as Pin2000) is doomed to failure.
Already owners of these things are having massive problems due to the rapidly changing face of PCs.
That's why Nucore was born in the first place.
Forget basing ANY pinball on a PC - just waiting for disaster.
every solid state pinball ever made is a computer. the moment you put it in your house. it becomes a (p)ersonal (c)omputer. I have a 32 year old firepower "computer" that works just fine. I really don't think that was the issue.
Quoted from Anim8ormatt:every solid state pinball ever made is a computer. the moment you put it in your house. it becomes a (p)ersonal (c)omputer. I have a 32 year old firepower "computer" that works just fine. I really don't think that was the issue.
No it ain't - pinball machines are built using 'embedded processors' NOT PC's (Personal Computers)
The EXACT issue is that motherboards (and pretty well every other part of a PC) changes every few months making anything based on a PC obsolete before it is even sold.
Embedded processors however are found in almost every industry and go on fo ryears.
Don't misunderstand the term "PC"
Kamloops, BC
RFM is a cool idea and I like the serviceability, but both of the Pin2k games kinda suck IMO...I couldn't get rid of my RFM fast enough..
I would have loved to see them make some more games...
But this topic has been discussed 534566 times, and I can say it will probably never happen..especially since Nucore doesn't seem to be wanting to do it now..or gave up on it..
Quoted from Homepin:No it ain't - pinball machines are built using 'embedded processors' NOT PC's (Personal Computers)
incorrect. just because the computations are spread accross the board. does not make them any less a computer. Sorry.
Also. who says you would have to base a new pin2k concept on an off-the-shelf set of components? that is just what Williams did. Hook it into a jamma board or some other component, i don't care. that is all beside the point.
All you would need is an interface that can read all the switches and drive the display. simple.
Quoted from tomdotcom:RFM is a cool idea and I like the serviceability, but both of the Pin2k games kinda suck IMO...I couldn't get rid of my RFM fast enough..
I would have loved to see them make some more games...
But this topic has been discussed 534566 times, and I can say it will probably never happen..especially since Nucore doesn't seem to be wanting to do it now..or gave up on it..
my question is. Why aren't' the major manufacturers looking at it? My thoughts are because it is perceived as "what killed williams" even though it wasn't. NuCore was a tiny segment basically out of a garage selling components for existing machines. Their market was limited from the start and they didn't have the capital to finish wizard blocks. Also. wizard blocks, while novel, has kind of a limited appeal. I would like to see X-Men, The Matrix, or hell, even WOZ!
Stern survived making cheap machines for years and I am thankful for it. But to
Quoted from Homepin:No it ain't - pinball machines are built using 'embedded processors' NOT PC's (Personal Computers)
The EXACT issue is that motherboards (and pretty well every other part of a PC) changes every few months making anything based on a PC obsolete before it is even sold.
Embedded processors however are found in almost every industry and go on fo ryears.
Don't misunderstand the term "PC"
Embedded APU's would easily be able to handle the type of rendering needed for a Pin2K type game. Also your argument of embedded processors vs PC's is really just semantics at this point.
The misunderstanding here is that Pin2000 WAS based on a standard PC (read - home computer) mainboard and this is where 95% of the problems arise.
As I have said, these things go obsolete even before they are sold.
That's no good for a device you want to keep for 20 years.
All earlier solid state pins use an embedded controller approach and this is why they are still FAR and away more easily repaired than a Pin2000
Quoted from Homepin:No it ain't - pinball machines are built using 'embedded processors' NOT PC's (Personal Computers)
The EXACT issue is that motherboards (and pretty well every other part of a PC) changes every few months making anything based on a PC obsolete before it is even sold.
Embedded processors however are found in almost every industry and go on fo ryears.
Don't misunderstand the term "PC"
There's no reason Pin2K had to be based on a PC. There are now all kinds of embedded processors/FPGAs that could support the software and video requirements we're talking about. Not to mention standards for USB and video requirements that are supported across several generations of PCs.
But, Homepin's distinction between embedded processors and PC's is correct.
RFM and SWEP1 are very affordable and available. No reason to knock off something that isn't hard to get.
Quoted from Homepin:The misunderstanding here is that Pin2000 WAS based on a standard PC (read - home computer) mainboard and this is where 95% of the problems arise.
As I have said, these things go obsolete even before they are sold.
That's no good for a device you want to keep for 20 years.
All earlier solid state pins use an embedded controller approach and this is why they are still FAR and away more easily repaired than a Pin2000
fine, use whatever you want, my question is in regards to the CONCEPT. not the components.
I.E. the reflected holographic interface on a pinball playfield. Why is that dead? you can't argue that it isn't fun and attractive.
Quoted from Anim8ormatt:fine, use whatever you want, my question is in regards to the CONCEPT. not the components.
I.E. the reflected holographic interface on a pinball playfield. Why is that dead? you can't argue that it isn't fun and attractive.
I don't remember the name of the project but there was someone playing with similar concepts with video on the playfield surface itself.
There are all kinds of possibilities for advancements in pinball, but I believe the current market is driven primarily by nostalgia, and I'm not sure many businesses are going to want to risk innovating.
Quoted from Anim8ormatt:I would LOVE to see this concept rise again.
Me too!!! I love the concept and think it could have been the ultimate, if given enough time to be refined.
Quoted from rancegt:I believe the current market is driven primarily by nostalgia, and I'm not sure many businesses are going to want to risk innovating.
That is a great insight, you're probably correct in this.
Maybe, just maybe, in ten years or so, I'll get my new holopin. Heck, Maybe I will develop it!
Quoted from Bowman9:So... just because something uses a video display like a monitor it is PC based?
Does that mean JJP's Wizard of Oz is a PC too?
Thank you! My point precisely. use a laser disk for all I care (not really, that would be awful)! Just get that video on the playfield and have it controlled by a pinball!
I agree with the sentiments of the OP BUT my points were that anything based on a PC (such as Pin2000 which proves my argument) is doomed.
Innovations "LIKE" Pin2000 as a concept - GREAT!
If JJP is using a PC mainboard then I have very bad news for them - 10 years and it will be the scrapheap for those machines unless someone like Nucore comes along....
Quoted from Anim8ormatt:Thank you! My point precisely. use a laser disk for all I care (not really, that would be awful)! Just get that video on the playfield and have it controlled by a pinball!
I remember when they based games on laser disk. Dragon's Lair and Space Ace were both pretty cool for a while. On pinball, that would mean the video starts and you have to make the right shot. Then if you miss, you die and it's the next ball. Hey that would suck.
Modern computing power is so much more capable than it was when they were developing Pin2K. There are all kinds of options for ball tracking, video, rules, etc. that are ignored right now. If you gave Jeri Ellsworth and her team at Valve the project, I have no doubt they could blow your mind.
Quoted from Homepin:If JJP is using a PC mainboard then I have very bad news for them - 10 years and it will be the scrapheap for those machines unless someone like Nucore comes along....
What is nucore made out of?
Uhhhh.....
Quoted from Homepin:The misunderstanding here is that Pin2000 WAS based on a standard PC (read - home computer) mainboard and this is where 95% of the problems arise.
Actually the real problem was pinball 2000 was not based on a standard motherboard and processor. They used a specialized processor and motherboard that had a very short life. Adding to the problem was the prism card. Which was really just and audio card and mass storage (of sorts.) I'm not blaming wms for this approach because they had to use what was right at the time. If you create a system that can use any mass storage and an open source os a product's sustainability will be extended. Arguing that embedded systems are forever is also an invalid argument. When people decide to stop making chips that becomes a problem.
Quoted from Anim8ormatt:NuCore was a tiny segment basically out of a garage selling components for existing machines.
Amazingly accurate 
Quoted from Anim8ormatt:Their market was limited from the start and they didn't have the capital to finish Wizard Blocks.
This however really wasn't the case. The roadblock with wizard blocks was two parties holding the same patent. Without going into great detail it was the owners of these patents that led us to abandon the project. We had everything lined up including a BOM, plans for using a real manufacturer and even a heavy hitter to finish the code. You can't ever underestimate the greed and/or egos involved in pinball politics. After 2 years of pain and suffering fighting to get Nucore out I wasn't ready to go down that road again.
Quoted from Homepin:If JJP is using a PC mainboard then I have very bad news for them - 10 years and it will be the scrapheap for those machines unless someone like Nucore comes along....
Contrary to what Jack originally said (no pc) their system is based on pc architecture but I think they went the correct route. Using a general mass storage device and an open source OS. If JJP dies the protection will be somewhat of a mess but not impossible to bypass. Using Linux will allow hackers to create a much simpler Nucore-ish product. Again, assuming JJP is nowhere to be found.
Any chance of Nucore/Pin2k picking back up again at some point? Or do you see these patent issues basically a complete roadblock and will never get resolved?
With how small the pinball market is, I am really curious how big of a job it would be and how much money it would cost to secure the rights to all the IP there is out there. I mean all the IP: the rights to the B/W, Pinball2000, Capcom, everything that is basically out of production.
I guess the rights holders made good money on the virtual pinball applications for cell phones and what not . . . but can't see any other way for them to monetize the IP . . . I bet it would be cheaper than most people think to acquire it all. The only question is why would someone bother to do it.
Well, Chessiv just commented on it (and he would know), the patent owners are just being plain greedy.
Quoted from TigerLaw:With how small the pinball market is, I am really curious how big of a job it would be and how much money it would cost to secure the rights to all the IP there is out there. I mean all the IP: the rights to the B/W, Pinball2000, Capcom, everything that is basically out of production.
I guess the rights holders made good money on the virtual pinball applications for cell phones and what not . . . but can't see any other way for them to monetize the IP . . . I bet it would be cheaper than most people think to acquire it all. The only question is why would someone bother to do it.
Some rights changed hands recently and the rumor is it was in the order of "millions"
(I can't quote on my phone). Homepin, I would be surprised by this. Oftentimes the value of transactions is grossly exagerated. That said, perhaps the possibility of pinball phone apps and electric versions of the game is driving the value up that high . . . that would be easy enough to deal with, allow the current patent holders to own the electronic rights to the games but sell the rights to allow real machines to be made.
Having new MM's really made would only increase the machines popularity and drive more people to buy the phone apps that are apparently making all the money for the IP holders.
Quoted from chessiv:This however really wasn't the case. The roadblock with Wizard Blocks was two parties holding the same patent. Without going into great detail it was the owners of these patents that led us to abandon the project. We had everything lined up including a BOM, plans for using a real manufacturer and even a heavy hitter to finish the code. You can't ever underestimate the greed and/or egos involved in pinball politics. After 2 years of pain and suffering fighting to get Nucore out I wasn't ready to go down that road again.
That really sucks. You guys provided a great service. Really bummed this couldn't get off the ground.
Quoted from Bowman9:So... just because something uses a video display like a monitor it is PC based?
Does that mean JJP's Wizard of Oz is a PC too?
They are running linux and it's not chip set tied and they can get by with a basic video drivers also the driver / IO board is linked by USB and USB will be hear for a long time Hell PS2 ports are still on some systems.
P2k will likely never get off the ground again without Chuck and or Dons help. They know the system better than the people who designed it.
Quoted from rancegt:Modern computing power is so much more capable than it was when they were developing Pin2K. There are all kinds of options for ball tracking, video, rules, etc. that are ignored right now. If you gave Jeri Ellsworth and her team at Valve the project, I have no doubt they could blow your mind.
It's not about PC power that holding it back it's the costs of the playfield and games with rules as deep as TSPP is pushing a little to far for the setting. In less you want a pinball game to take 30min -1 hour+ to get to the finale mode.
better ball tracking will need more hardware to tell the CPU where they are. Also the pinball hardware tends to fail / get out of 100% working order over time. On the pc you don't really have stuff failing the like that.
Quoted from AkumaZeto:P2k will likely never get off the ground again without Chuck and or Dons help. They know the system better than the people who designed it.
at this date it should be redone from the ground up and not be tied down to the small rom / flash , cpu power and ram limits of that time.
Say what you want regarding love of the game/hobby/bidness(sic) model; It's all about the money. Gary does it for money, Jack is doing it for money, Same with the botique producers. Pinball 2000 does not offer a business case that shows a reliable chance of a profit.
Quoted from MrBally:Say what you want regarding love of the game/hobby/bidness(sic) model; It's all about the money. Gary does it for money, Jack is doing it for money, Same with the botique producers. Pinball 2000 does not offer a business case that shows a reliable chance of a profit.
Sad, but true.
Quoted from MrBally:Say what you want regarding love of the game/hobby/bidness(sic) model; It's all about the money. Gary does it for money, Jack is doing it for money, Same with the botique producers. Pinball 2000 does not offer a business case that shows a reliable chance of a profit.
Well, the first one, rfm, made 22 mil on 7k machines. At today's prices, ou would be looking at 59 million. All you need is a good game! Gomez is at stern. I wonder if he'll ever make the case or even has interest.
Quoted from Anim8ormatt:Well, the first one, rfm, made 22 mil on 7k machines. At today's prices, ou would be looking at 59 million. All you need is a good game! Gomez is at stern. I wonder if he'll ever make the case or even has interest.
Interesting stats. I think the home use market would buy them in loads (but the hone use market for NIB is still so small. We need to triple the number of NIB buyers in my view to really stimulate companies taking big risks like running a new pin2k esq game, but the hobby continues to grow.
I wonder what the last machine was to sell 7k units? AC/DC may get there one day.
Quoted from Anim8ormatt:Also. Wizard Blocks, while novel, has kind of a limited appeal. I would like to see X-Men, The Matrix, or hell, even WOZ!
Wizard Blocks doesn't excite me but I would buy it to support the cause. I would love to see some sort of Haunted House or Horror theme on Pin2K! If only I was stupid rich to make it happen! 
Quoted from centerflank:I love my p2k, just about done refinishing RFM!
Looks fantastic!
Quoted from centerflank:I love my p2k, just about done refinishing RFM!
Very nice!! This pin is on my short list.
Let me chime in here as someone who is replicating the system from the ground up:
As Chuck had said, Pin2000 was based on a very specialized hardware architecture commonly seen in set-top boxes and such. You don't see factories putting out tons of ASIC chips in the quantities that they put PC motherboards out in. The best thing to do is to do what Chuck and Don did, and base the system on a commonly used software platform that is fairly architecture independent. Through the modern linux systems available today, this is pretty trivial to do. So its a bit dramatic (and quite frankly the opposite of where the market is headed) to say that basing a pin control system on a PC is "doomed." If Stern (the makers of their own embedded control systems) tanks, who will make your boards? You've had industry support for AMD/Intel based systems for YEARS.
Another thing: Stop trying to think that you have to use existing software (IE: reverse engineer Pinball 2000) just to get a new platform off the ground. There are so many higher level languages to put out quality game software and frameworks at a fairly rapid pace now. Pinball 2000 didn't use standard 3D display architecture because their hardware capacity was so limited, so they had to pre-render all the image sequences. So really all you see are 3D sprites on a screen rather than a 3D mesh.
My entire system which you see in DM2K took about two months to build single-handedly from the software up. Why? It's based on modern hardware and the system has a BROAD support community. What does this mean for the potential business owner? You don't have to train someone on your proprietary architecture, you can also hire in people with experience in game engines like Allegro, Unity, XNA or Ogre, or whatever. Trust me, it makes business sense to do this, that's why almost EVERY manufacturer out there right now is doing it. That's why your cash registers run Windows, that's why your check-in terminals at the airport run Linux, that's why slot machines run Linux... yeah, it's worked out well so far. It might not be "purist" pinball, but its a business-sound decision for the future of a hobby with as tight of a profit margin as pinball has. Driver boards are another story, those usually just have to be made, but the components on driver boards are readily replaceable and are still being put into the market since they're just common electrical components. My argument here strictly refers to software/CPU control systems, as that's where my experience is.
I'd love to see this get off the ground as I'm personally a big fan of the system. I'm a big fan of what Chuck and Don have done, and I think its a shame that NuCore fell through (and it wasn't because it was PC based). However, its time to stop thinking that we have to base things on Citrix or ASIC to see new "innovation", that's like saying I need to put my game software on floppy disks because that's how good ol' WMS did it!
Just my two cents, and I love the thread. You guys are passionate people with a TON of varying skillsets! Get out from behind the keyboard if you can and start the re-innovation in pinball if you can!
-- Jimmy
Quoted from Compy:Let me chime in here as someone who is replicating the system from the ground up:
As Chuck had said, Pin2000 was based on a very specialized hardware architecture commonly seen in set-top boxes and such. You don't see factories putting out tons of ASIC chips in the quantities that they put PC motherboards out in. The best thing to do is to do what Chuck and Don did, and base the system on a commonly used software platform that is fairly architecture independent. Through the modern linux systems available today, this is pretty trivial to do. So its a bit dramatic (and quite frankly the opposite of where the market is headed) to say that basing a pin control system on a PC is "doomed." If Stern (the makers of their own embedded control systems) tanks, who will make your boards? You've had industry support for AMD/Intel based systems for YEARS.
Another thing: Stop trying to think that you have to use existing software (IE: reverse engineer Pinball 2000) just to get a new platform off the ground. There are so many higher level languages to put out quality game software and frameworks at a fairly rapid pace now. Pinball 2000 didn't use standard 3D display architecture because their hardware capacity was so limited, so they had to pre-render all the image sequences. So really all you see are 3D sprites on a screen rather than a 3D mesh.
My entire system which you see in DM2K took about two months to build single-handedly from the software up. Why? It's based on modern hardware and the system has a BROAD support community. What does this mean for the potential business owner? You don't have to train someone on your proprietary architecture, you can also hire in people with experience in game engines like Allegro, Unity, XNA or Ogre, or whatever. Trust me, it makes business sense to do this, that's why almost EVERY manufacturer out there right now is doing it. That's why your cash registers run Windows, that's why your check-in terminals at the airport run Linux, that's why slot machines run Linux... yeah, it's worked out well so far. It might not be "purist" pinball, but its a business-sound decision for the future of a hobby with as tight of a profit margin as pinball has. Driver boards are another story, those usually just have to be made, but the components on driver boards are readily replaceable and are still being put into the market since they're just common electrical components. My argument here strictly refers to software/CPU control systems, as that's where my experience is.
I'd love to see this get off the ground as I'm personally a big fan of the system. I'm a big fan of what Chuck and Don have done, and I think its a shame that NuCore fell through (and it wasn't because it was PC based). However, its time to stop thinking that we have to base things on Citrix or ASIC to see new "innovation", that's like saying I need to put my game software on floppy disks because that's how good ol' WMS did it!
Just my two cents, and I love the thread. You guys are passionate people with a TON of varying skillsets! Get out from behind the keyboard if you can and start the re-innovation in pinball if you can!
-- Jimmy
Well said. I do love the work you're doing and trust me, you wouldn't want to work on original pin2k code running on xinu.
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