Something like the P3 system.

Caveman, Baby PacMan/Granny and the Gators did faie.

Mr . Game was cool.

Pinball 2000 really expanded the platform, I've owned both titles.

Today's technology could be even more striking, but I think Stern, Jersey Jack Pinball, and American Pinball won't pursue it. Not to say someone else would not go for it , but I think that ship has sailed for good.

Lin made a home brew one.

Wasn't Full Throttle/Alien (original) supposed to be something like that? Swap the inserts in the cabinet and put a new playfield in?

I think the Pepper's Ghost hologram display is the bigger topic at hand. Off the top of my head, Dialed In does that on a small scale IIRC. Considering the game's close similarity layout-wise to Lawlor's "Wizard Blocks" PB2K prototype, it seems to be a pretty clear inspiration even if not exactly the same.

I agree, it would have been nice to see what they could have done with the platform beyond the known games they had planned out (wizard blocks, playboy etc) but its done. Honestly i wouldn't want to see anyone else try it either. Williams had the benefit of the videogame division as well to aid in development too. I also wonder if WMS/SG still retain the rights or patents on the design and would shut anything down if anybody attempted to mass produce something

I doubt Stern or JJP would attempt it... they're doing very well with their machines plus toppers alone.

I’m waiting for Pinball 3000

Hello no...

How about they just focus on trying to make great playing games and not gimmicks or trying to cram as much shit as possible on a playfield?

Pinball has gone in the wrong direction for years since a huge part of the buying base doesn't care how they play as long as it has tons of lights and other shit.

Most JJP games look like the "the Homer" car from the Simpsons.

Yes...and also the Ecto Goggles on Ghostbusters Premium.

I think if someone could revive Nucore (or the modern equivalent) then I think Wizard Blocks would sell well to existing P2000 owners.

Reviving the platform itself would be too risky, I think.

I think the first company that manages to offer AR with their machine will score big. With AR they can virtually put "things/monsters/whatever" on the pf sort of like Pinball FX3 does.

Imagine squashing a mini Trex walking on the map in JP. Vehicles driving around, super heros flying under the glass, etc.

The biggest drawback of course is the cost of AR gear and that only folks wearing it will see the effect. I see AR more of an add-on for now - if someone comes out with it.

AR remains a scarcely adopted novelty. Nobody wants to put on goofy glasses to play pinball.

I just don't see it happening. Not worth the time and expense for a pinball company, they would lose money on it.

Yeah I don't think pinball needs to be "evolved" into something new. It's blowing up already, just make games that are strongly themed, have character, cool mechs, lots to do, fun to shoot, etc. The formula is already there.

Evolution/change is inevitable, otherwise we’d still have numeric displays for the score. Who the hell looks up at the LCD while the ball is in play? Nobody. Yet here we are with all games having LCD displays and fancy animations in addition to the actually useful info.

Display technology in pinball has constantly evolved for about 70 years.

It's not really "innovation," it's evolution. From light scoring to LCDs, it's just a slightly different way of conveying scoring and gameplay information to the player.

Pin2k on the other hand, and other radical departures from pinball as we know it, have generally been unsatisfying and unsuccessful.

It's just not why people play pinball. They may clamor for the vague, formless concept of "innovation," but really what they want is just to play pinball, more or less as they've always known it.

Don't really see any need for it to come back.
I guess you could make it not suck as much...but do I want to pay more for a game to exist so people can just type "Peppers Ghost" more?

That's what the folks at Gottlieb thought too. How well did that thought process end up for them?

The problem is with older pinheads unable to have any sort of vision on where pinball could go. "Change is bad". However to attract new younger demographics it will have to evolve. These companies aren't in it for just 1-2 years. There in it for the long run to make a profit. Making your product stand out is the best way to ensure longevity. Just churning out the same'ol same'ol eventually leads to extinction - although Stern seems to prove that wrong lol.

We'll see how sales go in the next year with the price of gas&food and interest rates going through the roof. I'm certainly not going to claim some sort of bubble burst but I have to say the prices on used games have seen an "adjustment" over here in the last 2 months. Hell a Rush Prem NIB sat for a month and it was being sold a few 100s below cost.

Um, they made Caveman?

Which of course, was a disaster.

And before that, they went Super outside the box / innovation and served up Challenger, an even bigger disaster.

People just don't want shit like that.

They were the last company to go SS. "People don't like change". they stuck to EMs way too long. They never really recovered after that. Cutting costs led to shit games that led to lost revenue that led to cutting costs. Gone.

I'm not saying that pinball HAS to change right now. But I'm definitely open minded and curious to see what will come out.

That's a pretty weak argument. They continued on for 20 years and died out pretty much when everybody else did.

Gottlieb had a number of reasons for going out of business three years before Williams did. Being about a year behind the other companies in the late 70s move to solid state wasn't anywhere near the top.

So regardless, we are getting sidetracked here. Are you suggesting that Stern abandon what they are doing right now in favor of going completely innovative and serving up a video/pinball hybrid, to avoid Gottlieb's fate?

Below which "cost?"

Proprietary technology, weak unlicenced themes, etc. They became irrelevant long before they closed the doors.

The cost of picking it up at the distributor at MSRP (+tax). Don't forget we get taxed to death in Canada. 13-15% tax on these things depending on which province you're in. The lucky bastards in Alberta only pay 5% but that's the exception.

Lawlor utilized a mini version of the tech on DI for the theatre spinner, it looks fantastic. Lin's Haunted Cruise looks fantastic. Those pin 2K cabs are freakin enormous and heavy. If one could have lighter cab, more efficient PC processing power. There is a use for it and I'm sure modern technology can make it more cost effective / efficient on a larger scale. Also, I still like the idea of an interchangable playfield and feel there is a market for it. There was discussion on a different thread.

Not really. Fun games sell. Gimmicks that don't add real value get killed by consumers. If the market were clamoring for a gimped layout with a hologram in the back, we'd have gotten another one in the past 20 years.

The back box is really the issue with size. Moving from a CRT to a flat panel, preferably oled, would eliminate most of that size and weight.

AR remains a scarcely adopted novelty. Nobody wants to put on goofy glasses to play pinball.

Only at a bangerjay pinball party.

I think you’re right, it’s so many things. The bad deal with Mylstar. “Raven,” because the execs thought their fans wouldn’t notice it’s a Rambo ripoff. The photo backglass, which screams out they were too cheap to pay an artist. The pressure on developers to rush out games in a fraction of the time the folks at Bally/Williams had. The inferior sound, displays, etc. The overall feel of the machines felt cheap, cheap, cheap. They made better licenses and machines in the 90s, but you’re right. They were irrelevant by then.

My vote is no, Pin2000 should not be resurrected. Granted, Williams never gave it a chance, as the execs were all too ready to pull the plug on pinball and go full bore into video slots, which were rising in popularity (and in turn, profitability) at that time.

Sales were improved, but there was no way it was bringing the industry back to a new golden age. As Pat Lawlor and George Gomez argued in internal Williams meetings, Pin2k wasn’t really a game changer. It essentially gave the player a different place to look, and not much more.

RFM had the better theme, but it was still fairly redundant of AFM. Episode I - yeesh. Lucasfilm’s restrictions and top-secret eyes-only approach really hamstrung the development team.

Surprised no one brought up the Stranger Things projector. That’s a great idea. Hope Stern tries it again. It could be something special with some more refinements.

I think dynamic art in general has a lot of potential.

Still hoping to see someone use mini OLEDs as insert lenses (and the P3 is neat. Maybe trying too many different things at once for most pin enthusiasts)

I think the hologram is a neat effect on DI and Ghostbusters. I think there’s too much of it on Pin2k games and it kinda obscures what you’re actually aiming for.

Less is more

1) Pinball has used unlicensed themes (rip off as you put it) since day one. A number of people are unaware simply because what was in the public eye then is forgotten today. I can't even begin to explain the trucker and CB craze of the 70's the leads to Bally Night Rider.

2) You think the BG art on Raven is bad? Perhaps you have never seen a title called Flash.

3) Gottlieb got a double kick in the nuts when their lead solid state designer picked up and left 6 months into the program with all the hardware and software and they had to get in bed with Rockwell.. who screwed them.

Gottlieb largely went into decline because Gottlieb Sr. retired and no one in the family wanted to run the show. I'd say before that Gottlieb was king for 20+ years and no one could lay a hand on them. They were the benchmark in the industry.

Kudos to Bally rising to the top in this period, some of the titles they produced in early 80's are high water marks in pinball to this day.

On topic: I think Pin2000 tries to straddle the line between pinball and arcade game is neither fish nor fowl. Williams themselves stated Star Wars empathized to much on the video game aspect and it cost sales. I don't watch displays while playing so all the flashy LED/LCD is lost on me.

A color DMD display is fine as far as I'm concerned, display is strictly secondary to what is happening on the playfield.
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