(Topic ID: 250744)

Picked up a Williams Stripes and Solids (1971)


By RecceDG

13 days ago



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  • 29 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 days ago by RecceDG
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#1 13 days ago

So it mostly works!

Known issues:

1. The 3000 pt rollovers (skill shot and outlanes) are intermittent. If you tickle them quickly with a finger (or a ball rolls over them) a motor will run in the cabinet but no score. Hold it down a little longer though, and it'll score 1000 - and keep counting +1000 as long as it is tripped. All 3 of these rollovers behave the same;

2. In 2-player mode, the 100 pt score reel appears stuck. Loud relay buzz from the head unit until ball drains;

3. In 2-player mode, seems to occasionally lose track of which player is up;

4. The "1-Up, 2-Up" lights don't always trigger;

5. The score match replay feature works, but is stuck on "80"; and

6. Rarely, the Player 1 score reel doesn't fully reset at start (reads 60000).

Plus the usual cabinet repaint, backglass replacement, and LED conversion.

#2 12 days ago

sounds like a good cleaning of switches and contacts will resolve most if not all of your issues. the link below will help.

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair

#3 12 days ago

Best way to do this is one problem at a time. So #1: Since all 3 ROs are affected, those switches are likely ok, but give them a good check anyway. They should make solid contact and be nice and clean. Then check the switches on this relay for the same thing. It is also possible that score motor sw. Impulse-C needs to be cleaned, so loosen the sw. stack screws and check that. Also, don't run amok cleaning everything or you can create new problems. And do you have a high-quality schematic scan you can post? IPDB does not have it.
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#4 12 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

don't run amok cleaning everything or you can create new problems

Agreed, and I upvoted your post, currieddog

#5 11 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

And do you have a high-quality schematic scan you can post? IPDB does not have it.

I haven't lifted the playfield yet - is it normally pasted inside the cabinet? If it is, I will.

The manual on IPDB has a lot of clues in it, but there is stuff missing too - like the score motor pinout isn't there.

I suspect that the 3000 rollovers not scoring 3000 is due to a switch on the score motor not pulsing (impulse cam switch C) which is probably a cleaning or an adjustment.

Same deal with the 2-player 100 score reel - I think that might be an end-of-stroke switch not opening, which is another cleaning/adjustment.

#6 11 days ago

Had a heartstopper last night when mid game, ball drained and... nothing happened. Completely unresponsive to all inputs. Lights still on, but that's it. Per the troubleshooting checklist, lifted playfield and manually rotated score motor a little, and it took off and game became playable again.

No wiring diagram in cabinet, just a sign explaining how to remove score motor. Bummer.

So lacking a wiring diagram....

I think the way the rollover works to score 3000, the switch activates the score motor (which works) and a cam on the score motor would pulse the 1000 pt relay 3 times. Because you typically either get 1000 points or nothing, I think the switch driven by the score motor is stuck CLOSED. This explains why holding the RO switch down rapid-fires the 1000 point reel - the 1000 pt relay energizes, the score reel advances, and resets for another cycle when the score reel EOS switch breaks the circuit.

As for why sometimes you get nothing at all, I think the RO switch gap may be a little too open, meaning that the time of contact when a ball triggers it is long enough to trigger the score motor, but not long enough to energize the 1000 pt relay. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, as the 1000 pt relay would be energized by the score motor closing the circuit. With the score motor pulse switch stuck closed, the length of the pulse to the 1000 pt relay is determined by ball speed/switch dwell, so now sometimes you can get enough time to run the motor but not enough time to energize the relay.

..I feel like I'm missing something though. If all the rollover switch did was turn the motor on, then then every time the motor cycled it would add another 3000 pts (3 x 1000). But it can't be the RO switch that energizes the 1000 pt relay (by design) because it would require the RO switch to be held down long enough for the score motor to cycle, and it clearly does not.

So something needs to energize the 1000 pt relay and hold it until the score motor turns it off. And that is... the 3000 pt relay? Yes. Every time the score motor rotates, it *tries* to score 3000 pts by tripping a pulse switch 3 times, but it doesn't actually do so unless the 3000 pr relay is energized *too*.

So what turns off the 3000 pt relay? It can't be RO switch dwell for the same reason.

It has to work:

1. Rollover switch fires 3000 pt relay
2. 3000 pt relay closes circuit to 1000 pt relay, in series with a 3-lobed cam on the score motor
3. 3000 pt relay closes circuit to score motor, activating a cycle
4. Something holds the 3000 pt relay energized until the score motor has cycled - and whatever that thing is, it is working.

Therefore, impulse cam switch C is stuck on.

How's my logic?

How do I identify "impulse cam switch C"?

#7 11 days ago
Quoted from RecceDG:

How do I identify "impulse cam switch C"?

Last one or two of the stacks that make up the score motor. Lettering starts at the bottom. The schematic, which you need to buy, shows it and what each sw. does. Snippet is from a Ding Dong, but all Williams follow the same pattern.

On your logic: sw. A on the 3000 relay keeps it energized
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#8 11 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

The schematic, which you need to buy, shows it and what each sw. does.

From whom?

#10 10 days ago

Holy crap that PBResource guy does not make it easy to order from him. No credit cards, no PayPal. Email sent while he is on vacation is dumped with instructions to re-send when he gets back....

Fixed the Player 2 100 point score reel and by so doing, restored 2-player mode. It turns out that the Player relay has an A-B switch for each of the score reels, and the Player 2 100 point switch was not making good contact. A little cleaning and a little bending of the switch reed and I eventually got it right. I also took the time to clean 50 years of crud off the score reels themselves which looks much nicer.

Several 2-player games showed no evidence of losing track between which player was up, so maybe that is knocked on the head too. The lights are intermittent, but the main player selection logic appears to work.

Is it normal for EMs to have a "shoot again" feature for when a player shoots but scores nothing before draining?

#11 10 days ago
Quoted from RecceDG:

Holy crap that PBResource guy does not make it easy to order from him. No credit cards, no PayPal. Email sent while he is on vacation is dumped with instructions to re-send when he gets back....

Ooops, should have mentioned that ... you could try Marco.

Quoted from RecceDG:

The lights are intermittent, but the main player selection logic appears to work.

Could be the Lock relay and/or Game Over relay M/B sw. (for player up, yes?)

Quoted from RecceDG:

Is it normal for EMs to have a "shoot again" feature for when a player shoots but scores nothing before draining?

Williams Ball Index relay will do that.

#12 10 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

you could try Marco.

...

Link? I'm new enough around here to not know who "Marco" is.

Quoted from currieddog:

(for player up, yes?)

Yes. The "1 Up" "2 Up" lights. They generally work, but occasionally won't. The next cycle will normally turn them on though, so I suspect you are right that it is a relay switch that is the issue, especially given that a relay switch was the culprit for the stuck player 2 scorereel.

#13 10 days ago

https://www.marcospecialties.com/

Try the middle two sw. on the Lock relay for the lights.

#14 9 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Try the middle two sw. on the Lock relay for the lights.

OK, losing it ... first thing I thought of this morning was that the Lock relay sw. would involve the whole backbox. Check the M/B on the Game Over relay.

#15 8 days ago

Learning a whole new set of skills.

Out of nowhere, the Player 1 1000pt wheel started not counting up when the 100pt reel rolled over to 0.

Ok... that's the rollover switch on the 100pt reel.

Got some 99% alcohol and some q-tips and started cleaning switches. Pulled lots of crud out, but the swab forces the contacts apart during cleaning and I had to re-set the switch gap a few times to go from "not working" to "mostly working" to "seems OK now".

I have a proper leaf switch adjustment tool coming.

The 100pt chime has gone intermittent too.

So after this weekend, here is where I'm at:

1. Player 1 works fine. 100pt reel advances properly and rolls over to the 1000pt reel too;

2. Player 2 works fine. 100pt reel no longer jammed (although this was the player relay 100pt make/break switch, not a score reel problem);

3. Score reel faces are clean;

4. Playfield glass is clean;

-----------------------------------

5. "1 Up" - "2 Up" lights intermittent (although less so than it was?) Will check make/break switch on game over relay, as suggested;

6. 100pt chime not chiming;

7. 3000pt rollovers not scoring 3000pts;

8. Match score not advancing;

9. Occasionally Player 1 10000pt reel does not fully reset (probably leaf switches on score reel);

10. 2 lights dead on playfield

Main effort is getting my hands on a proper schematic so I can trace problem switches explicitly instead of deductively.

Thanks for the help so far. It is good to see that the machine responds to logic and methodical thinking - although boy howdy the line between a functional leaf switch and an N/S leaf switch is *very* fine.

#16 8 days ago
Quoted from RecceDG:

6. 100pt chime not chiming;

Check sw. C, and if not that, the coil on the chime box. Did you check that Impulse sw. for the 3000?

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#17 8 days ago

I discovered a bad solder joint on the chime box last night. I'll be resoldering it shortly.

> Did you check that Impulse sw. for the 3000

Not yet. On the list.

#18 7 days ago

Resoldered the loose wire on the chime coil, and now I have chimes!

Marco didn't have a wiring diagram, so I guess I try PB Resource again tomorrow.

#20 6 days ago

Made contact with PB Resource. He has a schematic. I'll mail out the order ASAP.

Oddest vendor I've ever worked with... but that schematic is worth its weight in gold.

Cleaning switch C on the impulse cam changed nothing.

It's weird - hold down that rollover, and it goes 1-2-3-4-5-pause-1-2-3-4-5-pause for as long as I hold the switch down, and each pulse lines up with the impulse cam. But I can also tickle the switch, the motor runs, but no scoring. Something isn't latching? And there must be a switch elsewhere on the score motor timed with a cam that lines up with 3 pulses that either sits in series with the impulse switch or de-energizes the relay that actually runs current through the impulse cam switch. Without the schematic though I can't tell which one it is.

I did fix the match unit - the pawl that advances the spider was pushed off to the side and not engaging the teeth. I cleaned the circuit board the spider slides on, but it is still a little draggy (or maybe the return spring is just weak). Maybe I'll pull the spider off and clean/polish the contacts?

A clue on the intermittent "1 Up" light - per the manual, it is routed through another spider ratchet thingy that advances 2 steps in single player and 1 step in 2 player. When a ball drains and the light is working, you can see the light go out then come on again as the spider rotates through the "2 Up" position. When the light doesn't work, it comes *on* as it ratchets forward. So either the ratchet lost a step that time, or the spider is a little loose and sometimes doesn't fully make full connection (my bet is on "lost a step"). I'll examine the manual again and see what else would be affected if it lost a step - that would be a clue.

I suppose there is a video someplace that talks about cleaning/rebuilding these spider-ratchet things?

Chime is fixed. Sometimes it would misfire, but I taped a little pad underneath the striker so as to raise it up a little into the solenoid coil, and that fixed it.

#21 6 days ago

Oh, new high score of 76k

#22 6 days ago
Quoted from RecceDG:

Cleaning switch C on the impulse cam changed nothing.

Be interesting to see what else is involved once you get the schematic. Can you take it to Staples when you get it, have it scanned and saved as a PDF and post it here? $2. Bring a thumb drive.

#23 4 days ago

So after cleaning the contacts on the 3000pt relay, I'm pretty sure that it is not being energized properly by the score motor. It runs the score motor and then immediately clicks off - unless you hold the rollover switch down.

There is undoubtedly a switch on the score motor that holds the relay on until 3 pulses have passed that is not closing (stuck open/dirty contacts) but I'm not sure which one it is.

I cleaned the switch on the extra ball relay that runs to the lighting in the backbox and the playfield, and now the extra ball lights come on nice and strong.

#24 4 days ago
Quoted from RecceDG:

So after cleaning the contacts on the 3000pt relay, I'm pretty sure that it is not being energized properly by the score motor. It runs the score motor and then immediately clicks off - unless you hold the rollover switch down.

Try doing a jumper from Imp-C to the sw. on the 3000. You could have a cold solder, bad wire, etc.

#25 4 days ago

That's not the problem - that part works.

Basically, the impulse cam on the score motor has 5 pulses per revolution. Switch C pulses in time with the impulse cam through the 1000 point relay, giving a 1000 point pulse.

When the rollover switch is closed, it energizes the 3000pt relay, which runs the score motor and closes the switch that connects the 1000pt relay to the impulse cam. But it is clearly supposed to *stay* energized long enough to score 3000 points - which it does not. Instead, the 3000pt relay switches off when the ball passes over the rollover switch (which is why you get score of between 0 and 2000 pts, depending on how long the ball dwells on the switch).

Timing is a function of the score motor, so there is clearly supposed to be a switch on the score motor in parallel with the rollover switch that closes when the score motor starts turning and opens after 3 pulses of the impulse cam, tied to the 3000pt relay energizing circuit. That switch should be on a cam that lines up with the fourth pulse on the impulse cam (which should make the cam easy enough to find) but which switch?

The answer will be on the wiring diagram - or I can poke switches until I find it.

#26 4 days ago

It could also be that not all of the pulses are getting thru.

#27 3 days ago

Well now I've done it.

I had a bunch of LEDs show up today, Yay!

So first I went through and replaced all the general illumination bulbs. I discovered one bad socket, but all the rest worked - and the better illumination is really nice.

But it also revealed just how weak the incandecents were - so the next LED to go in was in the center thumper bumper. That worked great.

I have 2 red and one orange - the reds went into the "holes score 2000" lights, and the orange went into "same player shoot again". Then I did all the playfield lights for the player 1 holes.

Power up the machine, and man alive do those inserts look better with LEDs in them - and they all powered up too!

So far, so good.

So I put the glass back on, started a game... and now getting a ball into a pocket does not power off the associated light nor light the light in the backglass. It *does* score the points (so it runs the score motor) and it *does* eject the ball, but you cannot progress to the 8 ball.

So, into the manual to look at relay pinouts, playfield up and power on to try triggering things and see what happens.

In the manual, there are 2 big relay banks - one drives the player 1 ball lights, the other drives the player 2 ball lights. These relays are mechanically latched, like a suitcase latch. At startup, a big bar comes down and resets all the relays to "locked". When an individual relay fires, it "unlatches" and turns off the playfield light and turns on the backglass light. It also closes a switch in series to all the other player ball lights and the 8 ball, so when all the balls have been unlatched, the 8 ball light comes on so it can be hit for the extra ball and the change of score to 2000 points per hit instead of 500.

If I manually unlatch a relay, it flips the lights as expected. If I unlatch all the relays in the bank, the 8 ball lights. Trigger the 8 ball, and the extra ball lights and the "holes score 2000" lights come on (LEDs nice and bright). Trigger any hole, and it score 2000pts like it should. Sink the ball, and it unlatches the 2000pt lights and scoring, and a big reset bar comes down and mechanically re-locks all the ball relays, and the playfield lights come on and backglass lights go out - so all the logic behind the hole relay banks is working fine. All that is missing is the electric de-latching of individual balls.

Each ball hole has a little plunger with 2 leaf switches on it. 1 leaf switch runs the score motor and awards points. The other appears to fire the ball coil unlocking relay. Aha!

Now here is where it gets weird.

There are 2 holes on the playfield that have 2 balls associated with them, meaning you have to hit the hole twice to clear the hole on the way to the 8 ball shot. These lights always go in sequence, meaning that if the hole has the 1 and the 5 relay associated with it, the 1 will always clear first, then the 5.

If I manually unlock the first relay associated with that hole, tripping that hole a second time *will electrically unlock the second relay associated with that hole and flip the lights*

WTF?

So a single light hole or the first light of a double-light hole does not respond to its energizing switch, but the second light of a double-light hole *does*.

There are also a pair of relays - one called the "1-7" relay, the other the "9-15" relay - that are responsible for shifting to which bank of ball relays is in play depending on if Player 1 (Solids) or player 2 (Stripes) is up. Those relays are under the playfield, so it is possible I bumped one of them trying to get the insert LED bulbs in. But they both appear to be working, in that the lighting for the inserts switches correctly when the player up changes, and they are wired basically "1 switch per hole" so it is incredibly unlikely I'd knock them *all* out of adjustment. It seems much more likely that I somehow interrupted power to the relay energization switch in each hole somehow.

I really really wish I had the wiring diagram right now.

#28 3 days ago
Quoted from RecceDG:

I really really wish I had the wiring diagram right now.

It should answer many questions. I had to read and re-read your last post a number of times and still not sure I got it.

#29 3 days ago

Well I figured it out.

There are two small metal pins in each hole, and they use the ball to bridge the circuit. I guess this is so that a ball that skips through the hole doesn't trigger progress on the target sequence - the ball must sit in the hole to activate it.

If you trigger the hole with a finger, it will score, but not advance the sequence.

I'm *positive* it was not working with the ball earlier... but it is now. So problem solved.

I played about a dozen 2-player games back to back with no issues.

Here is the updated to-do list:

1. Figure out the 3000pt rollovers (will need wiring diagram)

2. Finish LED replacements for bulbs (remaining LEDs ordered)

3. Fix bad playfield GI bulb socket

4. Rebuild flippers

5. Repair/replace noisy lock relay coil (loud hum/buzz)

6. Replace backglass

7. Replace playfield glass (the current glass is pretty scratched up and the better illumination makes it more obvious)

8. Repaint cabinet

9. Powder coat legs

10 Repair playfield paint

Progress!

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