(Topic ID: 225145)

Phoenix - No Sound


By MaxAsh

1 year ago



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  • 32 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by Robotworkshop
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#1 1 year ago

Hello All - starting in on a new project, a Phoenix (Williams, 1978, System 4). Going to be some work, but I think I can get it back to life, as it's already closer than my last project was at the beginning. Here's where I am so far!

- Game boots to audit, but the quick on/off switch trick gets it into Game Over/Attract mode. Early win there. Batteries were ancient and leak-threatening, so they're pull and the reason for the audit thing. NVRAM or remote battery installation will fix that.

- All displays look great, which is a good start.

- Can credit up and start a game, but ball doesn't kick out. Side drop targets don't reset (I know the center ones don't at the start of a game). All Driver-board solenoids are dead (no pops, no slings, no target resets, no outhole kicker, etc.) Flippers work though, but I know those are independent of the driver board.

- Scoring seems to work, testing various rollovers and such score points as they should.

Boards are mostly clean. Some corrosion, but only right below the battery in the one empty socket that's there. Everything below that looks good so far. There has definitely been board work on both the MPU and Driver, since I see multiple socketed chips that were not sockets when the board was produced. Some are newer-style sockets too, so I'm guessing relatively recent. Some new transistors and such too.

I found (2) ICs on the Driver Board that were socketed since production, but neither chip was fully inserted (one entire side of legs was out, which was odd). Properly socketing didn't change anything. Fuse didn't appear blown, but I will check it more thoroughly and pull all of them soon. 40-pin interconnect is original, so that's getting done ASAP. Suggestions welcome on what to check if I find fuses and all that good, but still have nothing coming out of the driver solenoid-wise. I'll try the solenoid test in the menu as well and report back.

Not sure what's up with the sound. Speaker crackles and such when I mess with the volume, so I think that part is fine. Going to have to look closer at everything sound-related. I don't know much about System 4 sound aside from they often need cap kits... but usually when I've done that in the past it's been to kill a loud buzz/hum. Would a cap kit also help with zero sound output I assume?

#2 1 year ago

Does the test button on the sound board do anything? The sounds during gameplay are triggered via solenoid transistors so if there was a driver board issue that would explain both.

Checked voltage at the coils?

#3 1 year ago

Hey zacaj!

I did all the early inspection at the pin's current location, so I didn't have all my tools with me. I'll hopefully get it home and get it looked at closely shortly. Good point about the sounds through the driver board.

As for the test switch, not sure, I'll check that and report back. I didn't even notice it was there, but just looked up a pic and I see it's located at the top right corner of the sound board.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

As for the test switch, not sure, I'll check that and report back. I didn't even notice it was there, but just looked up a pic and I see it's located at the top right corner of the sound board.

It should play through a variety of sounds on repeat if you click it

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It should play through a variety of sounds on repeat if you click it

Yep, just like the Gorgar you helped me fix recently . I looked for the test switch when I was checking out the game initially, but missed it I guess. I expected it to be where the red toggle switch is for the tone/sound change option. Definitely going to try it asap. If it ends up producing sound, I'll know that almost all my problems are relative to that Driver board.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Yep, just like the Gorgar you helped me fix recently

You need to get yourself an avatar!

Quoted from MaxAsh:

I expected it to be where the red toggle switch is for the tone/sound change option. Definitely going to try it asap. If it ends up producing sound, I'll know that almost all my problems are relative to that Driver board.

Besides from the layout, this sound board is thankfully quite similar to the gorgar one, plus it has (iirc) metal jumpers below the sound data connector that you can ground for testing, instead of needing to track down resistors

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

You need to get yourself an avatar!

Done! haha

Besides from the layout, this sound board is thankfully quite similar to the gorgar one, plus it has (iirc) metal jumpers below the sound data connector that you can ground for testing, instead of needing to track down resistors

Ah, that will be nice at least. Hoping to have it here and under my review in the next day or two. Couldn't haul it home right away, but plan to shortly!

#8 1 year ago

zacaj

Okay, the game is here and I'm working on it! I've changed the topic to just "No Sound" because the Solenoid issue seems to be fine now (there was no 2.5A fuse in the fuse holder). I replaced it and everything is working again, no issues, no fuse blow, nothing locked on. So for now I'm going to just focus on the sound issue.

So I pressed the sound test button, nothing. When I adjusted the volume knob, the potentiometer is definitely dirty and crackly, but I hear speaker hum when I crank it up loud, so I'm thinking the speaker itself is okay for the moment. I tried both the normal game sounds and the "tone" sound option with the toggle switch, neither does anything in game or using the test button. Suggestions welcome... on my last project (Gorgar) I had test button sounds. I've got nothing here currently.

#9 1 year ago

I'd guess it's probably not booting then. Swap the PIA and CPU if unsocketed, see if anything changes. Replace any old sockets, etc. Check for activity on the CPU pins if you've got a logic probe or scope.

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I'd guess it's probably not booting then. Swap the PIA and CPU if unsocketed, see if anything changes. Replace any old sockets, etc. Check for activity on the CPU pins if you've got a logic probe or scope.

Thanks zacaj

Regarding the PIA/CPU comment, do you mean on the MPU, or the sound board itself? The CPU IC1 on the main board is a 6800 and socketed. The only PIA I see on that main board is one labeled PIA Display Output and it's not socketed.

Looking at the Sound Board, I see IC3 (MC6820 PIA), so I wasn't sure which you were referring to.

Should I check for voltages and such on the sound board first? I haven't worked on a completely dead sound issue before on this era Williams.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Thanks zacaj
Regarding the PIA/CPU comment, do you mean on the MPU, or the sound board itself? The CPU IC1 on the main board is a 6800 and socketed. The only PIA I see on that main board is one labeled PIA Display Output and it's not socketed.
Looking at the Sound Board, I see IC3 (MC6820 PIA), so I wasn't sure which you were referring to.
Should I check for voltages and such on the sound board first? I haven't worked on a completely dead sound issue before on this era Williams.

All referring to sound board. It should be able to enter the test mode completely independently of the rest of the game. Has its own rom, cpu, pia. Basically a simplified mpu, and can be troubleshot the same way.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

All referring to sound board. It should be able to enter the test mode completely independently of the rest of the game. Has its own rom, cpu, pia. Basically a simplified mpu, and can be troubleshot the same way.

Ah, gotcha okay thanks! The 3 large ICs on the bottom IC1, IC2, IC3 are socketed, and listed as follows:

IC1 = MC6802 MPU
IC2 = 7641 512 x8 EPROM
IC3 = MC6820 PIA

I didn't note that IC1 was a 6802 when I first looked, now I see it. Any particular activity I should be looking for with the probe? Or just something going on in general?

Thanks again for clarifying. Going to dig through my chips to see what I have, but I'm betting none of those on hand of course haha.

EDIT/UPDATE - Had a spare new 6802, swapped it into IC1, no luck there. Looks like I'll need to consider the 6820 PIA next? I only have a 6821 lying around sadly.

#13 1 year ago

Tested some voltages... I'm finding -12.2 where I should on -12V unregulated. For +12V unregulated I'm seeing around 10.8V. I can't seem to find +5V yet. I tried on the + side of C27, but got nothing. Going to dig around more.

#14 1 year ago

Iirc 6820 and 6821 are compatible? I've never paid attention to the difference.

Check for activity on the data lines of the rom. Even if the pia is still bad if the cpu is good you should see data.
C27, 28 should have 5v, as well as pin 24 of IC2, among others. If not could be your 5v regulator is just dead.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Iirc 6820 and 6821 are compatible? I've never paid attention to the difference.
Check for activity on the data lines of the rom. Even if the pia is still bad if the cpu is good you should see data.
C27, 28 should have 5v, as well as pin 24 of IC2, among others. If not could be your 5v regulator is just dead.

From what I saw on Marco, looks like 6821 is the suggested replacement for 6820, so I'll give that a try next.

Found the 5V where I should now, so it seems good. I was looking at the wrong side of the capacitor for some reason. Fail me. It's there on C27, C28 and pin 24 of IC2. So it looks like I'm back to the ICs.

#16 1 year ago

I had (2) spare 6821s. One was new I believe, the other from another game that ended up not being the problem with that repair, so it's probably good too. Neither one worked though, so that's interesting. That being said, these are all SCANBE sockets, and the IC3 socket looks like it's practically lifting from the board when I remove chips, so I'm thinking replace that one at a minimum. I think I have one spare socket still... should get some more.

#17 1 year ago

zacaj Okay, I received my Cap Kit and new sockets to replace the SCANBE ones. I have two questions before I get started:

1) So the kit I ordered was for Sound Board Type 1 based on my research. It came with (6) caps. My question is related to capacitor C27... it's joined with C28 in the diagram and on my board. The cap kit doesn't include a replacement for C28. Do I re-use that? Or does the new cap I received for C27 remove the need for C28 altogether?

2) There appears to be jumper wires running on the back of the board between certain EPROM positions. I see a tag inside the cabinet that talks about EPROM jumpers being required for this game, so I'm assuming they're factory. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I can post some pics if it's helpful. Please let me know!

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

zacaj Okay, I received my Cap Kit and new sockets to replace the SCANBE ones. I have two questions before I get started:
1) So the kit I ordered was for Sound Board Type 1 based on my research. It came with (6) caps. My question is related to capacitor C27... it's joined with C28 in the diagram and on my board. The cap kit doesn't include a replacement for C28. Do I re-use that? Or does the new cap I received for C27 remove the need for C28 altogether?
2) There appears to be jumper wires running on the back of the board between certain EPROM positions. I see a tag inside the cabinet that talks about EPROM jumpers being required for this game, so I'm assuming they're factory. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I can post some pics if it's helpful. Please let me know!

Probably normal. Pic of front and back to be sure.

#19 1 year ago

if you have the sound board with one fuse it needs modified to work with a 6821. I think they forgot a pulldown resistors on CB2 or something and it causes only the 6821 to act up. The diag button makes noise, but it does not respond to inputs from the main cpu/driver. The flash manual has information on modding the one fuse sound board to work with a 6821. Page 21

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Probably normal. Pic of front and back to be sure.

Here are some pics. Note that the 6802 chip is a military grade one my friend gave me (they make them where he works), hence the fancy gold/ceramic chip and such. The 6821 on the board is one of the spares I had around. If barakandl is correct, then there may be an issue with it. I can always put the original 6820 back on too.

Phoenix_Sound_Type1_1 (resized).jpgPhoenix_Sound_Type1_2 (resized).jpg
#21 1 year ago

you have the first generation sound board with one fuse and a few design mistakes that got fixed with the red wires. Please download and review the flash manual if you dont have one. Check around page 21. Otherwise you may be spinning your wheels just doing stuff. It looks like you need to solder together p39 and p40 of the pia at the least.... can't say thats the only issue tho as that usually only makes the sound board not respond to the cpu/drive stimulation but the NMI button produces sound.

The ceramic package CPUs have better temperature ranges... I think that is it. They are long obsolete still can and do fail. Specially if zapped by over 5v or negative voltage. I was told by someone at Rochester Electronics they where going to spin up more 6800 series stuff (be they would be crazy expensive). Not sure if that is true...

The red wires on the back of the board.... looks like it could be impaled by a lead and shorted out. Seen that happen.

Break the sound board into three sections.

The power supply. +12v, -12v, +5v all must be good.

The computer. Is the CPU running? Check the E pin for 0.85mhz clock. Put a logic probe on the PIA ports that service the digital to analogue converter. Push the diag button and monitor. Does the PIA start doing work when sound plays??? If so the computer is problem running.

The sound amplifier. If the computer is running but no sound you probably have an analogue failure. You can send some noise through the amps to see if they are working.

If you wan to just take the easy way out. You can buy an entire new replacement from http://nvram.weebly.com. The trace routing errors are all fixed and they generally produce cleaner / better sound than the worn out originals do.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

1) So the kit I ordered was for Sound Board Type 1 based on my research. It came with (6) caps. My question is related to capacitor C27... it's joined with C28 in the diagram and on my board. The cap kit doesn't include a replacement for C28. Do I re-use that? Or does the new cap I received for C27 remove the need for C28 altogether?

C28 is a small ceramic capacitor. C27 is a larger electrolytic capacitor. Electrolytics dry out with age and thats why they need recapping. Ceramics generally are fine and can just be ignored.

I've had those red wires on the backs of all my williams sound boards. Seemed to be a factory 'hack' because they couldn't route a trace or something.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

C28 is a small ceramic capacitor. C27 is a larger electrolytic capacitor. Electrolytics dry out with age and thats why they need recapping. Ceramics generally are fine and can just be ignored.

zacaj When you say the ceramic C28 can be ignored, do you mean I don't need it anymore, or just that I can re-use it when I replace C27 and solder it similar to how it is currently done? I'm assuming re-use, but want to make certain!

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

zacaj When you say the ceramic C28 can be ignored, do you mean I don't need it anymore, or just that I can re-use it when I replace C27 and solder it similar to how it is currently done? I'm assuming re-use, but want to make certain!

ignored as in don't replace it, just leave it

#25 1 year ago

barakandl - Thank you for all the information. I'll check out the Flash manual and items you suggested first. I'll check those wires just in case to make sure nothing is shorted or impaled too.

Regarding power, I verified that I had -12V, +5V on the legs of a couple of the capacitors per the schematics. My +12V was around +11V, but where I checked it was listed as "unregulated" so I believe some variance is okay. If that's too much of a gap, perhaps that could be an issue.

The computer. Is the CPU running? Check the E pin for 0.85mhz clock. Put a logic probe on the PIA ports that service the digital to analogue converter. Push the diag button and monitor. Does the PIA start doing work when sound plays??? If so the computer is problem running.

The sound amplifier. If the computer is running but no sound you probably have an analogue failure. You can send some noise through the amps to see if they are working.

If you wan to just take the easy way out. You can buy an entire new replacement from http://nvram.weebly.com. The trace routing errors are all fixed and they generally produce cleaner / better sound than the worn out originals do.

I may need a little guidance on doing this exactly right, as I'm not the best with the Logic probe (zacaj could tell you from my Gorgar thread I'm still learning to use it haha).

As for the replacement board, that's actually my backup plan. I figured I would cap this board, replace the sockets and try a few spare ICs I have lying around. If that doesn't fix it, then I would probably just go ahead and order a new board, rather than spend more money on additional components trying to chase down a problem. Right now I'm at $17 attempting to repair it. I don't really want to spend much more than that, especially not with a perfect replacement option shipped at $100. It would be silly to get too much deeper into trying to fix the original if I'm not certain of the issue.

I'll try everything I can that's been suggested and go from there. I'll be back asking some logic probe questions I'm sure this evening. Thank you!

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

ignored as in don't replace it, just leave it

Okay, thanks. When I replace C27 I will simply use the existing C28 and solder it back on with the new C27 cap.

#27 1 year ago

zacaj barakandl Cap kit done, not a big surprise it didn't fix the issues. Tomorrow I guess I will tackle replacing the two 40-pin SCANBE sockets to see if that does anything. I may stare at the 80 solder points for a bit and just order a board instead, but we'll see. I do like a challenge, and I've done plenty of these now. That doesn't mean they're fun though!

I'll probably try to figure out some of barakandl's suggested tests first though, since I have it hooked back up at the moment.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

zacaj barakandl Cap kit done, not a big surprise it didn't fix the issues. Tomorrow I guess I will tackle replacing the two 40-pin SCANBE sockets to see if that does anything. I may stare at the 80 solder points for a bit and just order a board instead, but we'll see. I do like a challenge, and I've done plenty of these now. That doesn't mean they're fun though!
I'll probably try to figure out some of barakandl's suggested tests first though, since I have it hooked back up at the moment.

The digital to analogue converter chip, MC1408L i believe, is connected to the 6820 PIA. When you push the diag button on the sound board some/all of these pins should become active or pulsing with a logic probe. If that happens the computer is at least mostly running.

When you replace the IC sockets it will give you a chance to do / check the mods in the flash manual. You don't have to change the jumpers. It appears you are using a masked PROM and the flash manual is talking about a ROM or something with a 2716 pinout / operation.

Pages from Williams_1979_Flash_Manual-2 (resized).png
Pages from Williams_1979_Flash_Manual (resized).png

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

The digital to analogue converter chip, MC1408L i believe, is connected to the 6820 PIA. When you push the diag button on the sound board some/all of these pins should become active or pulsing with a logic probe. If that happens the computer is at least mostly running.

None of the pins on MC1408 seem to react on the probe when the diag button is depressed. They simply stay high or low. Not a good sign it would seem. Going to keep doing some testing, but I might just go ahead and order the new board. I've ordered a bunch of other stuff from barakandl over time, and it's all great. I'm a big fan of the NVRAM too.

I can always continue to repair this one, and either use it down the road in another project, or sell it to recoup some of the cost once I get it repaired. I'd prefer to get the game fully up and playing to enjoy it, while continuing to repair the old board for the sake of my own tinkering and the hobby haha.

#30 1 year ago

barakandl - just wanted to say thank you, the new board works great! Simple plug and play, hooked it up and it worked immediately. Only comment I'd have on it is that the sound was defaulted to "chime" and not the more modern sounds. SW2 had no jumper connector on it. I had plenty of PCB jumpers from various computer motherboards, so I threw it on there and it worked great!

zacaj - thank you as usual for all your help as well. I'm going to keep working on the old sound board since I have this machine to test it in for now. Hopefully I can fix it and have it as a future part, or sell it if need be. For now, I'm just happy to have a working sound board in this nice Phoenix!

Time to move on to the other stuff... new rubber rings, leveling some cupped inserts, cleaning and adjusting more switches, rebuilding some flippers. Fun stuff!

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

barakandl - just wanted to say thank you, the new board works great! Simple plug and play, hooked it up and it worked immediately. Only comment I'd have on it is that the sound was defaulted to "chime" and not the more modern sounds. SW2 had no jumper connector on it. I had plenty of PCB jumpers from various computer motherboards, so I threw it on there and it worked great!
zacaj - thank you as usual for all your help as well. I'm going to keep working on the old sound board since I have this machine to test it in for now. Hopefully I can fix it and have it as a future part, or sell it if need be. For now, I'm just happy to have a working sound board in this nice Phoenix!
Time to move on to the other stuff... new rubber rings, leveling some cupped inserts, cleaning and adjusting more switches, rebuilding some flippers. Fun stuff!

OK great to hear. I normally send the board out with the jumper shunt in for the advanced sound mode. I must have forgotten to do so on that PCB. Interesting to me is the Lazerball I use to test the sound boards must not have a chime mode with the sound 2 ROM as it was playing the same advanced sound effects when I tested it. I will have to check out to see what games / ROMs have a chime mode.

11 months later
#32 7 months ago

Did you ever get your old sound board working? I was looking at the Phoenix manual for a friend and found a note in the manual that the test switch on the sound board for Phoenix does nothing or isn't connected. While that test switch normally works on the Williams sound boards apparently it doesn't on this board in this particular game.

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