Probably a little of both... some are really into it and like the commodity aspect as well. Not sure any of this should matter. Bottom line: its all a risk. If someone wants to tie up some cash and take the risk in hopes their 'commodity' increases in value... cool!

I know more than one person around here that pretends really hard to be a pinhead, but at the ended of the day cares a lot more about making money off their "friends" and the community.

There are lots of flippers and retail guys who like pinball, but at the end of the day they are in it for the money and it's a commodity for them.

I guess it just depends.

And while JJP and Stern see all the people paying $10K plus for pins, they will continue to raise their prices.
If Stern would be smart they would only make Premiums and Pros to weed out all the "investors/flippers".

A lot of us do this when we buy stocks and bonds. Tie up cash in say Enron stock hoping to get a lot more money later. You could buy a basic transport car with the money now but hope to get an exotic car later. Those who did that with Enron may have had to settle for a Huffy instead of a Schwinn though.

I have gone the buy a brunette now route in the past with satisfactory results. Actually, it was more like rent.

Why on earth would Stern want to weed out the investors and flippers??? Look at the stir they caused for Mettalica. Look at the stir they are already building for Star Trek. I bet there are now a lot of people primed to buy an LE the moment it is announced because they don't want to be shut out. When you build a new product and it is seen as rare and desired right out of the gate you have a winner of a formula. Thank the investors and flippers for that, and the price.

Personally there is no way I'd buy a machine to have it sit in a box. Crack that puppy open and play it!

Stern has already stated they can't survive on selling LEs only. Collectors want the best model. If the best model is only the Premium, in theory they would sell more.
Some are so pissed about MOPLE they refuse to even get a premium or pro.

I can tell you that I have purchased >$5k items that I planned on using (Home theater gear mostly) that never got installed due to not having the space or did not want to risk damaging the item and as time went by I decided I could not keep it or would never be able to use it. I assume a impulse Pinball purchase like this does happen some of the time but I would say 75% is speculation on the NIB machines collectors/users are selling.

Yah. I do know a guy who guys just about every LE but then waits to see if it's any good or not before opening it up. He would rather sell it NIB for less of a loss than open it up and find out it's a flop and sell it HUO.

Those guys are the exception though I agree.

I have a Metallica LE on order, and I plan on opening it. However if someone wants it for $12,000CAN send me a PM and it's yours.

That is fine if you order one for yourself. Tony and Jimmy on the other hand order multiples from multiple distributers for flipping purposes only. Pump and Dump scheme.

This argument breaks down however as the number of people speculating increases. One or two people speculating can be called a "risk" since they are not significantly affecting the supply. However, if enough people speculate, then they create their own shortage and hence, are artificially manipulating the market.

If you have ever found yourself wanting to go to a sports game or a concert and cursing the fact that you will have to pay a scalper an exorbitant price in order to do so, then you might see what I mean.

Speculating is not necessarily a victimless activity.

I keep hearing the argument, "sometimes the game flops and the LE hoarder takes a loss."

At the end of the day, I don't care if the hoarder wins or loses. As long as games are being hoarded, the pinball fan loses. By the time the hoarder is taking their loss, they are selling the game for what it's worth so it's not a "win" for the buyer. But when the game is released, and you either can't find one or have to overpay, that sucks.

LoL -that's brilliant a company will give up millions in sales to "weed out" a few McCarthy listed pinball bad apples that spend on their product to make a new pinsiders with 3 points happy. Will do.

I'm new to this hobby and it didn't take long to figure out it's not about the love of the game.
It's the love of making money on my old tired machine so I can afford the next new one coming out. If people are willing to pay the inflated prices this practice will continue.
That said there are genuine pinball lovers that are in it for the love of the game and do understand there are others like them out there. You can find decent machines at decent prices you just have to be patient and make contacts with the right people.
This hobby is like any other hobby. There is people that are in it for the money. There are people in in it for the passion of the game(like myself).
Oh I just got confirmation of my 6 Metallica's. One for me and 5 to sell to eventually pay for my one!

LOL, If we were dealing in food and water I could buy this argument...

Who are you to decide if that's fine? Who are you with no points joined for this thread? Calling out individuals while hiding? Poor taste.

Every business model looks "greedy" or "get rich quickly" until you personally do it. Pinball hobbyists like to buy cheap, fix up and sell high. The topic of people buying NIB for 7K and more is very different form that fixer upper world.

People that have multiple NIB or high end games laying around must have the ability to have 20K or sometimes much more in inventory. People that can afford that without flipping pinball machines have no desire to go to all the effort. So those that do it, work hard it.

I'll take specualtors all day long over (some)retailers selling junk as high end product.

What Will I do today?

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Your from Moscow, Ohio but it sounds like you grew with true Moscow mentality

My son & I got into the hobby about 4 years ago and we love bringing broken machines back to life. Anyone who thinks fixing up machines and selling them at a profit is a good way to make money is sadly mistaken. If you consider purchase price, parts, time, etc there is no real money to be made fixing up machines. You could make more sweeping floors or flipping burgers than you can bringing these machines back to life.

As far as new in box machines - lately there has been a trend in most of them going up in value but that has not always been the case. Look back at some machines that have tanked. Get it right and you could make a bunch of money but get it wrong and you could take a huge hit. Does it make sense to take that chance if you have extra cash around - everyone has to make that call for themselves but again logic says it is risky.

As far as the "flippers" making money. I buy most of my machines from a local flipper. I would prefer paying him to deal with driving for a machine then having to drag it out of someones basement while dealing with their dog & kids in the way. The first year I was in the hobby I wasted a lot of fuel and time running for machines and once I got to the sellers house machines where not as nice as they said they were - etc. Now I just head to his place & pay a little more to do things the easy way.

Pinball machines as an investment or a business just don't make a lot of sense no matter how you look at it. But it is a great hobby and with prices going up each year it is one of the few hobbies you can be involved in that doesn't cost you a lot of money when you are ready to move on to something else.

Yes - there are people in it just for the money but my experience and business knowledge tells me it isn't a great way to make serious money and most investors prefer better risk (smaller & lighter also).

Have some extra money and want to take a chance NIB pinball machines might be an OK risk. But once you consider space & the other risk I think there are much better ways to make money.

Well said!

Not so well said!

What about beer?

When I say flipper, I only mean the people that buy multiple NIB pins to gouge someone that wants the machine. Maybe they should supply free KY when you get the pin from them as well.

You have re-sellers that buy pins from ops, other collectors, etc and fix and re-sell them. Ya I'm sure they are still making a profit for their time and effort they put into the pin, but that is expected.

If you have two of the same game one opened and one not, then your still a pinhead. If you have one or more of any title unopened your a dealer and or speculator.

Really? thumbs down? Please explain what I said that could be considered negative or wrong.

_{Post edited by PEN : Thumbs down for logic... Ok?}

LOL, not necessarily.

If speculators were hoarding this argument, then you would not be able to buy it at all !

Why is idiots not one of the two choices?

Btw my mople is for sale at 15k lol everyone has their price-Ted debiase

Scum or the earth, every time I see a hoarder lose money I just smile. I could have purchased 5 Metallica le and stored them in a secure climate controlled facility. Could never make that post on pinside.

"Wanting to rip off my fellow pinsiders on a mople". Thinking about becoming a dealer seems like a easier more reputable way to do the above. Probably wont because of time constraints.

Yawn.......

Shlock, really?

The guy you're harrasing about having low karma made a more constructive post on this thread than ANY of your three posts here.

Keep farmin' that Karma, dude. Maybe at some point YOU'LL have enough for ME to respect your opinion...since the proportion of mine to yours is about the same as yours to theirs.

double yawn...

The two people who have issues with my post both are probably sitting on hulks well in the case of one of them I can only hope. Same guy who swoops in whenever someone has a counter opinion on price. Still waiting to see 14.5 k on. Tron le proof, which I know won't ever happen. You yawn I smile , hoarding should be frowned upon it is worse practice than the 8 months in advance preorders.

Getting a nib pinball machine should be a joyous occasion with big smiles and happy times. Not getting a box and hugging it and letting just gather dust while hobbiest are forced to over pay. I can only imagine having a nib and trying to explain to my little brother why were not enjoying it, oh yeah I don't have to think about that ever.

$

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These whining threads are boring and new ones seem to pop up daily on pinside.

If you don't like what is happening with Stern sales then complain directly to Stern. They are enablers and facilitators of these actions.

While many of you seem to be blaming other pinsiders, it is human nature to be greedy. Read through the thread. It seems that everyone has their price. Only a few have been bold enough to post it.

Whether I keep a pin NIB, it is really nobody's business and I don't agree that it is a valid complaint. The real complaint is about the individuals who are driving up prices for others which really only happens when a pin is advertised and then when a sale is made.

And the person who pays the price is just as guilty for driving up prices as the person who sells the pin.

Good luck controlling the market.

I don't think we should let people off the hook that easily.

Lots of things are "human nature", but we shouldn't excuse all of them.

I keep my NIB as NIB because I'm still working on a larger space to hold them. I bought them now, instead of later, because: 1) I didn't want to miss out on availability; 2) better protection in original packaging; 3) if I don't spend it, the wife will buy more shoes. That's my logic.

My price for MET LE is at best 300 over the Premium, and thats after I decide I like it or not. So unless the sheep decide it sucks, I will not be getting one. Oh well.