Nice report. Very interesting and definitely worth looking into. I think I'd still have to give it the "eyeball" test in person to be sure.

Thank you all for this hard work. Truly a quality end product that shows the time put into the effort.

I think i'd just stick with regular glass, nothing in the AFM videos would make me want to shed out more cash, when a regular sheet is $40. Thanks for your hard work in doing the comparisons, it was really appreciated!

Most excellent! I look forward to watching these!

I appreciate the time and effort that went into this report and video's. I'm sure the amount of editing and installing/removing glasses took your entire week/weekend. However, I'm going to be the first to complain (SORRY!!). Couldn't you use a stationary tripod that kept the viewing angle the same between glasses? Both the AFM and CV shots between PDI and Bob's glass are at different angles or at least different zooms. As you know, with light, any variance in angle and distance is going to bias the results one way or the other. Or was the camera the same and the variance is in editing?

I agree. There definitely seems to be an advantage to using the PDI glass but you could still see some glare from the backglass even with PDI (although it was slight). I'm sure it's breath taking in person but unless the cost was about half I wouldn't want the investment (and that's not going to happen). I couldn't tell a difference between standard and Bob's Ultimate visually. IMHO the PDI is superior but for the cost I would just stick with my standard glass.
Plus if I accidentally scratched the PDI glass I would be really pissed.

That's what I was thinking.

I think if you're someone that REALLY doesn't like glare PDI is still the way to go. So expensive though.

Anxious to see what JJ gives us for new glass alternatives.

+1. Would be great to add Invisiglass to comparison once available. Yay! more work for our volunteers.

I agree with this. But it still seems pretty evident to me that the PDI glass is clearly the winner. The Bobs Ultimate glass merely seems to make the glare/reflections a bit less severe that regular glass. Frankly, if I'm going to spend what the Bob's Ultimate costs, I'd bite the bullet and go all out for the PDI glass. I love my PDI glass and can't wait for my next couple of sheets to arrive in a couple of weeks.

I can't wait for the JJP glass either, especially since I am in need of some widebody glass.

+1 I noticed this also. Hard to make a equal comparison, when the angles are different.

thank for all the efforts like others said but i don't see much difference with standard and yours and the fact that it's not the same angle doesn't help to prove anything.

i guess for a final result we need to see it in person.

Thanks for the great work pzy and mutterfudder. These things are never truely appreciated unless they are seen in person. I'm willing to lower the price if I get enough interest. As I have stated, if I can buy full sheets and cut the individual pieces myself then there will be a savings passed on to my fellow pinheads. This glass is not PDI glass but it is better than standard glass as stated by someone who has seen it first hand.

The size of the bevel is adjustable. I can make the bevel smaller if that is the preferance. I can make it where the bevel is mostly tucked in the side rail and you can still get thicker glass. I am also offering 3/16 glass that does not have a bevel but does have the same improved clarity and glare reduction. I will have that information on pinballglass.com in the next day or so.

Perhaps he will have a sample of it at MGC.

Thanks again for taking all the time and energy to do this, pzy!

Makes me want PDI even more.

meh, honestly i'm more interested in 'sound dampening' than glare reduction. i'd love to hear nothing but the audio from the backbox and cabinet speaker. probably the reason why i sometimes/used to listen to ipods and headphones when i'd play. no way i'm paying 200+ for 1 piece of glass i can get for 25$.

I was also saddened by this fact; it really doesn't help us at all if the camera is in a different spot/angle. BOS pretty much summed up my feelings on wanting sound dampening over everything else.
Oh well...
Since my machines all have a shaker and a FF kit installed, I have resorted to using (bicycle) DSP 1.8 handlebar tape along the back channel and on some tiny portions of the side channels, to keep the glass from rattling during the more dramatic sequences. It works like a charm and can be removed at any time. The sound clarity is greatly improved (without the added rattle) and the bass just feels more solid. Thus, making my pinball time more enjoyable/immersive.

At the end of the "Bob's Ultimate Installation Video" if you turn your volume up you can hear the comment about a snug fit. No rattling.

No rattling.

That would be nice! I tend to have the volume cranked to 11.

11.jpeg

Agree. I was hoping this new glass would reduce the mechanical sound of the machine more than removing glares, especially since I like to play primarily in a dim to dark room anyways. The PDI glass looks the best but it is pricey. If you're gonna mod your machine I suppose its the mod to do alongside upgrading the sound to Flipper Fidelity speakers.

Thanks to all for the extensive work to put these together.

Based on those videos my opinion is that I will need to see a side by side for myself. Currently I am of the opinion that few pins warrant the cost of anything more than standard, but if you are going to go with a high dollar glass, then PDI has my vote.

It all really comes down to price point. If I am going to spend more than $40 then for the money I am going to buy the PDI because it is far superior than the phooglass in properties and is not really substantially more than the phooglass.

That said, if Phooglass only cost $100 then I would likely fit all my pins with it as the minor decrease in reflectance and sound dampening would be worth the extra $60 over standard.

JMHO.

Hey good job guys. I wish the videos were shot from the same reference point as others have mentioned but if you concentrate on the AFM reflected from the back glass and the light on the ceiling I think you can get a good idea of what each glass is doing. I might be interested in some standard thickness phoog glass if the price was right.

Thanks PZY, nice work man. I'll say to those who said we should have shot them all from the same spot that yes, we tried to get everything back to the same spots on all the machines, but we had to move the tripod out of the way to get glass on and off, and this was shot in all kinds of different sequence. So, we did the best we could. I think it came out pretty damn well.

As promised, my other thoughts on the glass are below. For the TL;DR crowd: BevelGlass is an improvement over the standard sheet on your pin right now. The game below seems to pop and is clearer than even a new sheet of the tempered stuff. There may be a slight glare reduction if you play in an environment with a lot of overhead light. Sound dampening? If it's there it's hardly noticeable. Comparable to PDI? No. But a bit better than standard.

After a few nights of playing with "Bob's Ultimate Pinball Glass" on my Theatre of Magic, my immediate thought is "anyone who's comparing this to PDI glass is going to be disappointed". Which is accurate to begin with, since the glass was here since my friend "PZY" had taken up the task of comparing this thick, heavy, beveled glass (herefore known as Bevelglass™) to the PDI glass sitting on the AFM next to me. But it's an unfair comparison, no different than comparing a Prius to a Corvette. Sure, they're both cars, but that's about it.

Let's talk specifically about Bevelglass in comparison to standard glass:

Visual: There is a clarity and level of detail to the game below that is better than the standard sheets I've had around the house. The insert colors seem to have a bit more contrast and clarity with Bezel glass on. When it comes to glare, the glass performs about as well as a standard sheet. Spots of light from backglass or DMD don't seem to have a much of a difference between the two. If like me, your machines are in an environment that has a lot of natural light, you may not notice much of a difference between the two. Once the light levels go down, there is a marked difference between them. Bevelglass does seem to perform better with background soft light in a darker room. In that darkened room, the glass produces a clearly better result than standard glass, and comes close to the PDI "The glass is not there" effect.

Sound dampening: I touched on this earlier in the thread, but there doesn't appear to be much difference between the two glasses. I've posted some audio with the two glasses installed and posted them here: http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-amazing-pinball-glass/page/6#post-172136

The Bevel: I'll call this out as I assume it will be a sticking point for some people. The glass has about a half-inch bevel on the left and right sides of the playfield. It's important to note that sides at the top and bottom of the playfield do not have the bevel. This is good because, as a player standing at the game, the bevels aren't really noticeable. People surfing over your shoulder will notice a prism effect of double vision when looking through the bevels, but it shouldn't have any effect on your gameplay. Some people will probably dislike the bevel (I know I was on the fence) but after seeing it on the machine it doesn't bother me and it looks nice (in my opinion).

Comparing BevelGlass with PDI Glass: This is a tough comparison for the Bevelglass. If you haven't seen PDI glass installed, it is almost completely imperceptible from the bottom of the playfield to about 2/3 of the way to the top of the playfield while playing the game. The effect is nothing short of amazing, and it makes you almost forget the glass is there. BevelGlass doesn't have that same effect, and seeing that it doesn't go through the same process it seems almost unfair to compare the two. BevelGlass does seem clearer than standard glass and almost invisible in optimal lighting conditions (no hard overhead lighting, no hard reflections from the DMD or backglass, etc). PDI glass shows some glare with hard overhead lighting, but it's much less noticeable than BevelGlass.

DMD Glare Guard: I had a chance to test the BevelGlass with a DMD glare guard from Wrong Crowd. As expected, this provided a dramatic difference in the upper half of the playfield by blocking DMD glare without obscuring anything on the game itself. With this on the BevelGlass had a much clearer top half (again, lighting condition specific!) and was notably better looking than standard sheet glass. When testing the glass on Cirqus Voltaire (DMD below the glass), the effect was similar to using the Glare Guard on LOTR and ToM. The glare guard also made a difference on PDI glass on my AFM. If anything, this has sold me on buying glare guards for my other pins, and I can't recommend them enough.

Misc. Thoughts: The glass is HEAVY, or at least feels heavier than a standard sheet of WPC glass. The images depicting the glass as not having a green edge tint are accurate. The bevels actually made it a tad easier to slide in to the rails, and it doesn't feel like it's loose in any way. In fact it's quite snug in there. Finally, when cleaning this weekend, I flat out dropped the Bevelglass to the floor (idiot, I know!). No scratches or dings, and the thing is in one piece. Clearly it takes a lickin!

Very interesting.
I have PDI in my TZ and I don't think it's worth it.
So I don't think this other glass would be worth it either.

It's like trying to reinvent the wheel...regular glass works just fine and is good enough for me.

My local glass shop can make something called "Starfire" glass. It is ultra clear glass and the thinnest is 1/4" thick, and it runs $90 a sheet (sound familar?). Anyways, the PDI glass is noticeably better than the starfire glass. Therefore, I have ordered 20 sheets of PDI glass and outfitted my whole gameroom.

Note, the glass isnt to remove glare. Glare from say the DMD still shows up about the same. Instead, it provides a level of clarity you cannot get otherwise. The colors pop. It's really amazing. For anyone that buys mods for his machine, you must get the PDI glass. If you want to know how it will look, remove the glass from your machine and compare.

My apologies if this was covered but how is it beveled? I assume a single bevel and if so how did you have it in the machine? Bevel up,down?

A detailed pic of the bevel was shown here: http://forum-img.pinside.com/pinball/forum/?bb_attachments=155716&bbat=17722&inline

Looks like single bevel, top side slopes down to fit into channel, bottom side is flat all the away across the glass.

To answer your question Taylor, that is exactly how it's beveled. I installed it as Robertmee posted; flat side down to the playfield.

+1

What is your definition of "works just fine"?

My pins that don't have PDI glass look dull and lifeless in comparison to the pin I have it on

Good to know thanks for the tip NP I will have to give that a try.

Thanks for the work on this you put in pzy and to Phoog for submitting a sample for testing it is appreciated. I do wish the camera was set up in the same spot as others have mentioned.

does PDI scratch easier than standard glass?

Thanks for the comments and efforts. Like most people, I'd have to see the glass in person to evaluate. The videos make the Phoog and standard glass appear pretty similar. Part of this is indeed the noticeably different angles and fields of view in the videos.

Getting a consistent framing is not rocket science. Just mount the camcorder to a tripod. Place the tripod in front of the pin. Mark the tripod feet locations with tape or pennies or something. Move and replace the tripod in the exact same position after changing glass sheets. Don't change any of the ambient lighting or camcorder settings. That's all it takes. Trying to do it "by eye" is not scientific nor accurate. And for catching differences in glare/reflections, variable camera placement makes all the fancy video editing somewhat of a waste of time, as the critical info is lacking.

Yes I am pretty sure it does.

1) I'd like to see the test redone with a stationary camera.
2) I'd like to see the videos edited, so a proper comparison can be made.

There should only be one video per game. Edit the transistions so you see all 3 different glasses in each video.

No. You just care if it's scratched more.

You could also place the tripod further back and use zoom, so the tripod wouldn't have to be moved.

Thanks PZY and MutterFudder, for going to all of the effort and getting this done in such a timely manner.

Here's how good PDI glass is. Everyone that plays pinball with the glass off will reach down to stop the ball from going in the trough. When I installed PDI glass on MB and played the first ball i hit my hand on the glass reaching for the ball because I couldn't even tell it was there. 'Nuff said.

However, I'm not really sure how well it works with the light shining off of shiny bald heads onto the glass ;->

Sooo, the overall is that if the price is REALLY right, Phooglass is the way to go over standard ?

If the 'Bob's Ultimate" glass doesn't offer any difference in reflection or any difference in sound-dampening over standard glass, what's the point of shelling out the extra cash?

I do believe that both pzy and mutterfudder said that it was a lot better than standard glass.

Yeah, that would be even easier/better! doh! [slaps own forehead]

Send me a sheet of the stuff and I'll do it justice. I have experience doing this sort of thing, and can use a camera quite well.

http://www.thekorn.net/glare_guards/
http://www.thekorn.net/gold/index.php

Oh, and lest Kim get upset, I did test his glare guards as well... http://www.thekorn.net/glare_guards/pinzero.jpg .

I also own audio level measuring equipment. See http://tinyurl.com/7lyoccl ( http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/b5df800129b9a9b0/ad753c1114a130d3?q=thekorn+expo+db+group:rec.games.pinball )

To be honest it's going to take quite a bit more than that. You need to lock down EVERYTHING on the camera -- aperture, shutter speed, iso AND the white balance, along with locking focus and planting that tripod. You have to control the room lighting 100%. (i.e. no daytime shots!) Moving and replacing will simply not work. Miss *any* of those and you just don't have a comparison.

So the concensus is that the tests were not controlled enough to satisfy everyone. The verbal opinions of pzy and mutterfudder are consistent with anyone who has seen this glass on a pinball machine. That being that it is far better than standard glass is a lot of ways. I have gotten my cost down and I have also produced a 3/16 version of Bob's Ultimate that does not have bevels and is less expensive. So here it is: Bob's Ultimate Pinball Glass is now $110 plus shipping and handling. The 3/16 version of Bob's Ultimate is called Super-clear Standard Glass and is $85 plus shipping and handling. I also have standard glass listed at very low prices. More to come. Please let me know what you think. Please visit pinballglass.com for more details!

You should take Korn up on his offer....If he blesses it, the masses will follow as he's very well respected on RGP.