I'm sorry; why wouldn't it?
Customers should be able to voice their concerns. But, yeah, I do understand that some people are stuck in their ways.

We're actually not stuck in our ways, that's exactly why PBL used to use the USPS and no longer does. When USPS face-planted during the 2020 COVID lockdown and lost their ability to deliver parcels we stopped using them.
In mid 2021, after many requests to once again offer USPS shipping, we turned that option back on. Immediately, we once again had issues with many orders getting lost, stolen, seriously delayed or returned, so we once again stopped offering their service.
There's only one reason people ordering products for delivery like the USPS; they are the cheapest. And there's a reason they are the cheapest, it's because they offer the least amount of services.
Tracking is spotty at best. Many times parcels are only scanned twice, once when they arrive at our local post office and again when they are delivered. This can cause all kinds of panic and confusion. Customers look at the tracking for their parcel and it appears to just be sitting in our local post office for days. We get emails and calls from customers wanting to know why their parcel is *stuck* at our local post office. I have explained literally hundreds of times that it is not stuck, it's just that no one is bothering to scan the parcel at any other sorting station.
The lost/damaged/stolen/delayed/returned parcel percentage with USPS is about 10 times higher than with UPS. Even worse, when a parcel does go missing there is almost no chance of recovery. Anyone who has ever tried calling the post office to inquire about the where abouts of a lost/delayed parcel knows what I'm talking about. Getting a live person on the phone takes a lot of luck and patience. Once you do finally get someone, they could not care less about finding your parcel. Their entire parcel recovery system seems to be nothing more than a hollow shell that in reality does zero about errant parcels.
The USPS does not consider a parcel lost until it has been 30 days since it shipped. 30 days! No parcel is ever found after missing 30 days.
USPS insurance? Total waste of money. They simply never pay out.
UPS is not perfect, but when a parcel goes missing I can call my rep directly and either get it located and delivered, or get a refund issued.
Why is shipping cost higher when ordering from PBL? Because we don't supplement shipping costs with our product costs. This means if you are ordering a $5 item we are probably not the best choice.
Shipping cost is based on the first pound (the expensive pound) and them a much smaller amount is charged for every pound thereafter. The minimum charge for one pound of product shipped via UPS is around $12, and it only goes up from there depending on where you live and how far away you live from a UPS shipping hub.
PBL is not a shipping company, we are a pinball parts company. We don't set the shipping rates, the shipping companies do. Even though PBL does not own any shipping companies, we are still responsible for their performance. Therefore, we pick the most reliable ones.
I know everyone has had their own successes and failures with the various shipping companies out there and it may be that your experience has not been the same as ours. Our decisions are based on the data we have collected from thousands and thousands of parcels shipped. We have had by far the worst luck with the USPS.
So in summation: no, we are not stuck in our ways. We learn from real life experience and make decisions based on those experiences. If we were stuck in our ways we would still be using the USPS.
As always, I reserve the right to change my mind. I do know that if we ever start using the USPS to deliver our products again, I will start a Pinside thread documenting all the issues we have when they occur. I can only assume the issues will once again reach their tipping point and we will once again be forced to stop using them. When shipping cost complaints once again rear their ugly head here on Pinside, a quick link to the previously documented issues will be a much easier answer than this one!
Terry.

USPS is horrible and a crapshoot at best these days. I'm happy to pay a bit more to know I'll actually get my package.

Now...getting it in one piece is a different story. I still remember when FedEx delivered me side rails from PBL that arrived looking like hockey sticks. That sucked.

The only discrepancy I've ever experienced is from a gear in my Road Show for Ted. I ordered one through Pinball life and it was slightly off, so Ted kept getting stuck. I ordered another through Marco and it worked like a charm.

All other times I've been pleased with both places.

I’d like to see USPS as an option. Add a disclaimer stating the risk of long wait, potential for lost package, etc if you want. I think you are losing some business due to the shipping costs of UPS / Fed EX. Don’t you want people to come to you for their $5-$10 orders?

In the end you know best, but I’d imagine you are losing more business by not offering USPS than you are gaining by only offering UPS/Fed EX.

USPS can be a crapshoot depending on what post offices and depots the package travels through, tracking leaves much to be desired.

FedEx around here is notorious for poor package handling.

I agree, here in Jersey I haven’t had a problem with USPS. I ordered stuff on Thursday afternoon & it was here Saturday morning. All my orders with usps arrive within 2-3 days even from Midwest or further. Guess I’m luckier than others. UPS & FedEx are fine also, FedEx we found more damage than any other carrier. I’d also like to see USPS as a option.

I've shipped a couple thousand USPS parcels the last 3 years and the only issues I've had were two lost international shipments and was able to have USPS pay me a full claims check on both, 3 that got stuck in Chicago for 2 months each during the pandemic and 3 international shipments took 2-3 months to finally arrive. Chicago is a major issue, and I can see why PBL doesn't want to use USPS since every shipment has to go through Chicago for them.

USPS shipping rates are much more expensive now that they drastically increased shipping rates on parcels over a cubic foot. UPS beats USPS shipping rates on almost every shipment I send out now through my store.

Just yesterday FedEx delivered a kids helmet to my house by throwing it over my fence onto the sidewalk. The helmet had nothing but its original packaging (shame on the shipper for doing this), so the driver knew what it was. Thats the difference between someone being paid $16 and hour and $36/hr (UPS) in my area. My UPS guy is awesome.

Our FedEx guy just throws stuff over our 4’ high fence instead of opening a gate to get in. When you get Misfits (food) most of it is broken, jars, eggs etc. Our UPS guy is great. I was going to place a pinball order for 2 Stern coil stops & 30 plastic colored acorn nuts. This is no weight at all, minimum charge for UPS is $16.55 for a $20 order. Crazy.

USPS in my area is great and most of the time just as fast or faster than UPS/Fedex

I have the same problem with the cart emptying. It drives me crazy that unless I order immediately everything goes away. I try to keep it open because I want to add more stuff to it but then I'll remember something, restock the cart and inevitably forget one of the initial things I had in there!

I don't have pbls volume... But I've only had USPS loose 2 packages. Both international.
FedEx has lost one. Ups has damaged three and refused to cover the damage

Sounds like USPS depends on where in the country you are

I just bought some Bally light sockets, and while PBL was cheaper, with shipping it cost more than Marco - so I went with Marco.

The USPS is still a risk, but much better now than during the pandemic. The current Postmaster has implemented policies which reduces services instead of increasing them. The USPS previously had surveys called "The voice of the customer".

If something goes through customs in the US it can get stuck for months.

Recently it seems the best deal is using small parcels 1st class. It travels just as fast as Priority Mail. Of course everything won't fit in a small box.

As a vendor; I understand Terry's plight at PBL.
I too lost sleep during the covid shutdown ... packages were lost for at least a month.
Eventually; all got delivered and customers basically understood that all shipping companies were shit. Even Fedex and UPS had trouble delivering packages.

As a vendor; I do not profit off of Shipping. I pass the USPS generated amount from their API on to the customer with roughly a 1usd added on to cover a shipping box and tape. As a whole; I find that most of us (Pinheads) are cheap skates... we don't choose Priority mail and will default to First class nearly every time; even if the cost for first class is within a dollar of priority.

As long as usps continues to be reasonably priced and continues to deliver; I can't see my small business downgrading to UPS or FedEx any time soon. They are too expensive and don't stand behind their service any more than usps.

As long as Terry understands his customer base... then I can't really blame him for making the decision he made.

When given the option I will ALWAYS pick anyone but FedEx. Even if it costs me more. I could give you dozens of times that FedEx has screwed me over on packages. They destroy them, they put stuff UNDER my gutter downspout, during rain storms. The Downspout which is right beside an OPEN porch doorway.. Leave stuff down by my mailbox, which is a tenth of a mile from my house.. All kinds of crazy crap that UPS and USPS never do.

Isn't it amazing? And in a hobby where people will blindly plop down five figures on an unseen game, but charge 'em a buck more for shipping and it's the end of their household budget for the year. Never understood it myself.

But as others said before, USPS seems to lose a ton of packages at the Keasby transfer station here in Jersey, and deliveries will either sit there for two weeks or never emerge from there at all. It's frustrating, and it's a huge reason why I'll always go FedEx or UPS first (and I'm not a huge fan of those, either!).

My latest fiasco had to do with Bally parts from Marco. The parts came with metric hardware.
I had to re-tap the hole threads to fit the common USA hardware.

I got 2 pop bumper brackets for my Capt. Fantastic from PBL $9.90 for both but Fed Ex shipping was $19.69 but they were the only people that had them, did i care how much shipping was,NO,I needed them and i got them...MY point was and still is,is that people will drop $10-15K to hit a silver ball around or they say they do,and let me tell you there are a lot of BULL SHTER'S on here, and a lot of VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE people on here,which I am thankful for, and complain about a few dollars about shipping,shipping has been going up up up thats just the way it is...wah wah wah....and again "if you need them to make your machine work ,you buy them"........NUFF SAID

FWIW, I'm not going to sweat over a $1 difference. But I'm seeing a 3X difference, and that's a different affair.

IMHO, it's not being a cheapskate to be a smart consumer and spend less money for the exact same thing. Which IMHO that's what I'm doing when I buy from a vendor that can ship for $6 instead of $18.

Now that said, some vendors (like Terry at PBL) have legitimate concerns about quality of service. I personally have never had any trouble with USPS, and have had plenty of trouble with FedEx, UPS, and especially OnTrac. But I'm just one person and Terry's got a wealth of firsthand experience to draw from. He absolutely shouldn't be faulted for making business decisions on the basis of that experience.

I may still take my business elsewhere due to the vast difference in shipping costs, and he'll obviously weigh not my personal decision but the aggregate of any noticeable loss in business that might occur, but that doesn't in any way refute the legitimacy of his business decision.

So weird to hear about shipping & delivery issues. I've never in my life had a problem. Nothing lost, stolen, broken, etc. I'm in my 40s.

Maybe it's a regional thing. A lot less to lose where I live.

I have only almost missed 1 package,it was delivered to a neighbor 4 buildings down my street but he walked it over.But Many of my Neighbors order Food and Drink that ends up on my Porch.I have opened my door to find Pizzas,Burritos,Indian food,Starbucks and more,I once told a delivery Guy he was at the wrong address,He left the food anyway.Found 5 cases of Dog food one day,I dont have a Dog.All of My Pinball stuff arrives.

Yeah, issues with USPS seem to be very regional. I’ve never had any problems with USPS deliveries whatsoever, even at the height of the staffing issues during the pandemic, we never had any problems here beyond media mail taking much longer to arrive than normal.

But I live in a small town of 2 thousand in a very sparsely populated region of the country. So I fully expect people in other parts of the country may have different experiences.

You aren’t taking into account operators like myself. Saving 5, 10, or 15 dollars off every parts order has an impact on the bottom line. That bit of savings adds up over time and can have an impact on maintenance costs and net earnings. When you are routing a pin, you’ll find that you look at things a bit differently.

Here is another reason why you can pay a little more for shipping from PBL. Search both sites for P/N - 500-6543

flip (resized).jpg

That's kind of unfair...the price drops to the same as PBL if you take 5. I never buy 1 of a consumable that cheap, it's just dumb.
Screenshot_20221212_200325_Chrome (resized).jpg

5 at PBL - .59
5 at Marco - .65

Yeah...but you're usually doing larger parts orders so the shipping doesn't really seem that huge. I'm one of those guys that orders three things and pays a large shipping price...then remembers he didn't order something else, and pays a large shipping price...and remembers something else.

Being a moron can get expensive, but I still don't complain because I know it's an expensive hobby.

And you just gave me another reason why I decided not to become an operator, along with too much work and too little payoff. I feel for you, buddy, and totally understand your frustration.

I have a complete rebuild project going and over the last 2 weeks I have made 3 orders, totaling almost $500. I always start with PBL just because I used to go there and pick up in person when I lived in Chicago, and the guys at PBL were always great to deal with and talk to. But since I am now shipping to KS, I run PBL and a couple of others side-by-side to see what makes the most fiscal sense. I often end up with Marco because of the lower shipping and because they tend to carry more of the more obscure parts that PBL does not. I try to split up what I can when it makes sense, but the last order I just placed was about 20 coil sleeves, a set of flipper bushings, and 6 or 8 leaf switches. I went with PBL because I felt bad ordering everything through Marco.....but it was hard to eat the $17.55 in shipping for a bunch of stuff that would fit in a small, padded envelope. Terry....I hear you about USPS, but I know from my personal experience, you probably lost $300 in orders just from my most recent project because it cost me less to go with Marco. Maybe if you put a disclaimer with the USPS option and briefly lay out your concerns when someone checks that box, it will help manage expectations. I personally have had more trouble with Fed-Ex and UPS than anyone these days, but I do realize it often depends on the area you are in.

Agreed. I used to buy almost exclusively from PBL for 10+ years until they removed the USPS option. Now their shipping prices are absurdly high. I've bought somewhere between $1-2k in parts in the last few months, but sadly none from PBL. Pretty much all pinball parts purchases have been from Marco and PBR lately.

In comparison, I just received a Mouser order with $550 in parts in a box nearly half the size of a pin playfield via UPS 2nd day air from TX to MI and shipping was just $9.99.

I understand that PBL doesn't have nearly the volume as Mouser, but if the comments in this thread are any indication, then PBL is certainly shedding customers by not offering a more affordable option...

20221212_230858 (resized).jpg

Well, I guess it's time to raise all my prices 10 to 20 percent and offer *free* shipping.
I'm just about to the if-you-can't-beat-them-join-them phase of this never ending circular argument.
There is no such thing as free shipping or $9.99 flat rate shipping (or any other less-than-actual-shipping shipping cost). I've been shipping parcels for over 20 years. UPS, FedEx, DHL and USPS have never contacted me and said, "Terry, today we are not going to charge you anything to ship your packages", or even, "Today we are only going to charge you $9.99 per parcel, no matter what it is".
*Free* shipping is simply not a thing. Shipping cost has to be recovered somewhere, somehow. Always.
I've already overstepped my bounds by even entering the fray here. I know better. If you're in the pinball business and you argue your point in a public pinball forum, you always end up looking like the bad guy, no matter if you are right or wrong.
Terry.

I worry that those trying to save a buck or two on shipping, and go to places other than our normal pinball parts dealers. Where will you go when they are gone ?

Places like Mouser aren't going to carry pinball parts.

Support the places supporting our games.

LTG : )

I said I bought $1-2K of pinball parts from Steve Young's PBR and Marco in the last few months. If either of those are a business that you feel aren't supporting pinball, then please point us to those that are more deserving...

And furthermore, I didn't say that the parts I received from Mouser were for pinballs. You have made many incorrect assumptions, my good friend...

Nah, you got 27 updoots already, most people know how it is. Don't give yourselves more headaches dealing with USPS. Y'all complaining about $15 shipping can always wait til you need more stuff before ordering.

I'm sorry for using Mouser. I didn't mean to single you or anyone out. I apologize for that.

I meant for people to support our parts people when they can.

LTG : )

Don’t get me wrong, I have used and will continue to use PBL. It’s just tougher to swallow when I am missing a part or two and there isn’t a first class option for either forgotten parts or just a regular small order. No complaints on the larger orders as it more than evens out on those. I generally get a game in, make a list of parts I need put in an order while first checking PBL, if PBL has all the parts I will go with them, if not I’ll bite the bullet and go Marco. When getting stuff for the full game it isn’t an issue, it’s only if there is a brain fart or part that wasn’t discovered on the initial inspection that I need to make a separate order and the part ends up being a .69c part but still having to do a $16 shipping on top of that. As others have said, you know what is best for your business and if you are having continual trouble with USPS in your area, you don’t have to prove it, if it’s costing you more money than it’s bringing you you’ve made the correct decision.

I feel for Terry if the post off is causing problems for him. Stress and lost product then a fussy customer is no fun. But the post office here has been all over the place. I have seen my outing mail on the street and some just out right disappears. Best plain i had for some time is no small orders try to keep it to 150 to $200 never was a issue now its staying under 400$ with cost of every thing going up.

As I'm sure both Marcos and Pinball Life are reading this I will say:

Both companies are great, I've never had an issue with either, and so far as I can tell the part quality is identical.

With that said I check Marcos first because:

1. Their website is better and easier to search. When I bring in a new game I always do an inventory on the machine to see what's messed up. I also bring up the Marcos page for that machine and sort the parts by prices, scanning from most expensive to least expensive to see what I missed and what is available that I might be missing. I also appreciate, "part replaced by x" and "discontinued" FYSA pages.
2. They are faster to get stuff in the mail. Stuff is almost always packed same day.
3. They offer fast (expensive) shipping options if you are desperate.

Pinball life generally is better for:
1. Purchasing replacement boards/displays
2. Cheaper shipping in general
3. Sometimes they have stuff Marcos doesn't and vice versa.

Both places are great and I've never had an issue with either.

Nothing but great experiences on personal dealings over almost a decade or so with both PinballLife (Terry & team) and Marco and team. We are fortunate to have both in our silly little hobby. Sometimes pinball parts new or old simply need a little fine tuning like the flipper part that started this thread. Call either one and they or their teams will walk you thru.

Listen...you just keep on doing what you're doing. You're one of the best in the business and I'm a customer for life. Just remember I said that when you're selecting your models for the 2024 Men of Pinball calendar. I cannot BELIEVE I was passed over this year...

Problem is, you’re comparing how 20 plus year old stock parts are to the replacements at PBL and Marco/PBR.

As far as I understand, the whitestar replacements parts are of the exact same specs as stock.

It's all good Terry - I think the majority of people here have no problem with your business and you will always get a few complainers that seem louder than the rest that are content. Keep doing what you're doing!

Says quite a bit when a thread opened to compare parts quality has nowhere to go except a back-and-forth about shipping from the two vendors.

-Rob
-visit https://www.kahr.us (or MARCO.COM) to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my redesigned Type 1 sound board for Williams games.

Fedex is literally the only carrier I've ever had trouble with. I mean sure, occasionally theres a hiccup with a UPS or USPS order but its very rare compared to Fedex. $15 for shipping is somewhat reasonable in these times but when I'm forced into $26 shipping for a couple tiny parts, thats when I have to start looking elsewhere I'm afraid. 1 or 2 bucks I'm not going to fuss over but when shipping costs double my costs, I just simply don't have the means to be throwing that kind of money away under most circumstances. I get it, things are weird right now, but that doesn't mean my pocketbook is immune either.

I complained about this too. Got nowhere though.

Ha, thanks. No frustration here though. I’m just a hobbyist operator. I do it for fun, to share my games with the public, for the social aspect, and to earn a few bucks for the pinball fund.

I find going in to play my games once or twice a week at our location to be enough to scratch the itch. When I have pins at home, I end up feeling guilty because I don’t play them enough.

If you live in the area, Does Marco offer pick up ?
I know at Pinball Life you can pick up parts yourself and save shipping that way.

I like to when it comes to heavy items, legs, glass, coils etc. Plus Terry and crew are are always welcoming!

I will gladly pay more every single time to order parts and have them shipped via UPS or FedEx.

USPS has been a complete mess the past few years. When they lose your order, you aren’t getting it back and they couldn’t care less about it.

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I like both companies and tend to chose the one that has the most stuff I need available at the time of the order. I think there’s room for both business models as has been shown for many years as I doubt any patron shopping one of those stores doesn’t know about the other. I have always been grateful for the excellent customer service I have received at both companies and I feel bad that this topic at times has degenerated to a one vs other thread.

I think the most important point made today is that customers do appreciate shipping options, and I think we all understand the challenges of shipping costs for each business.