(Topic ID: 215131)

Payrange fees increasing


By hocuslocus

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 35 posts
  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by hocuslocus
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    #1 1 year ago

    well, I've been using payrange for a little while now. I only bought one batch as a test, they did poorly for a long, long time. Took a while before people actually started using them.

    Decided to grab a few more but this time instead of just ordering them via an online "add in cart" page. You have to get with a representative and draw up a contract. The percentage was at 4%, now it's going up to 4.25% which I'm fine with.

    The thing I'm not fine with is the 50 cent charge per week, per machine. It's not a lot up front, but say you have 10 machines that aren't being used.. now your getting charged an extra 20 bucks a month for nothing. Yes I know you can swap them, but it's a pain in the ass to have to redo the data every time you want to move one back and forth. Its real easy to forget things, like putting the wrong pricing schedule.

    Not sure if I should continue using them or not. For me it's hard to say if it's actually increased revenue, this has been more an experiment then anything. Think the main reason it's taken off is because of the 7 for 1 discount and not because it's another way to pay. ( thought it was a cool idea though)
    Anyway it'd be nice to see thoughts on what others might do.

    #2 1 year ago

    I have negotiated processing of other things of this nature to a much lower amount. I called and offered to buy 100 units for 2 locations. No discount no fee decrease.

    I never purchased and figured it's not worth the time.

    Cool idea but the fees are out of hand imo

    #3 1 year ago

    Remember when Paypal was totally free "we make our money on the interest on the money in your accounts".

    They hook you, then gut you.

    #4 1 year ago
    Quoted from hocuslocus:

    Not sure if I should continue using them or not.

    That is why you try stuff. Some times it works. And some times it doesn't.

    LTG : )

    #5 1 year ago

    Same thing happened to me. They jacked up the pricing and made me sign a contract. However, after much correspondence with Gavin in tech support I was able to mine invaluable data. Think about it a sec. they have access to every single PayRange out there. As an operator I’m always wondering what’s working and what’s not. I often ask people I do deals with and they all say Star Wars and ghostbusters are some of the best earners. However I learned that out of thousands of machines across the country the most profitable or at least the machines earning the most are not even pinballs. I’m not surprised by this but I was surprised by what machine actually does the best. Granted this is just a machine on PayRange so data could be skewed. Any guesses as to what is the top earning machine in the PayRange database??

    #7 1 year ago

    Iron man or taf

    #8 1 year ago

    Probably a photo booth.

    #9 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jkush18:

    Same thing happened to me. They jacked up the pricing and made me sign a contract. However, after much correspondence with Gavin in tech support I was able to mine invaluable data. Think about it a sec. they have access to every single PayRange out there. As an operator I’m always wondering what’s working and what’s not. I often ask people I do deals with and they all say Star Wars and ghostbusters are some of the best earners. However I learned that out of thousands of machines across the country the most profitable or at least the machines earning the most are not even pinballs. I’m not surprised by this but I was surprised by what machine actually does the best. Granted this is just a machine on PayRange so data could be skewed. Any guesses as to what is the top earning machine in the PayRange database??

    Wait a sec.... they are goving you i formation from other peoples machines!!??

    #10 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jkush18:

    Same thing happened to me. They jacked up the pricing and made me sign a contract. However, after much correspondence with Gavin in tech support I was able to mine invaluable data. Think about it a sec. they have access to every single PayRange out there. As an operator I’m always wondering what’s working and what’s not. I often ask people I do deals with and they all say Star Wars and ghostbusters are some of the best earners. However I learned that out of thousands of machines across the country the most profitable or at least the machines earning the most are not even pinballs. I’m not surprised by this but I was surprised by what machine actually does the best. Granted this is just a machine on PayRange so data could be skewed. Any guesses as to what is the top earning machine in the PayRange database??

    so what a second, your able to access the pay range database? that might be a descent tool to have. I get surprised more and more as to what does well and what doesn't. Guardians is in first followed closely in second place by TWD for me. on all my reports it only shows mobile sales, it never shows cash totals. Cash is always 0, not sure why it's even on there. Payrange acts for probably 10-20% of my totals, so my data would be messed up.

    Quoted from cjmjmm2006:

    Iron man or taf

    I love ironman, but its usually rounding out the bottom five for me. Even with extended ball save times and lowered outlane post and lowered pricing. I think casual players feel cheated, the casual player seems to make up the bulk of the coin drop.

    #11 1 year ago

    Big Bass Wheel is my guess for top earner

    Oh and please tell us the answer

    #12 1 year ago

    BElieve it or I not the highest earning machine is located at a family fun center in California where they have 120 machines on PayRange. Drum roll please.........and the game is hot shots linked basketballs.

    #13 1 year ago

    Don’t go calling them pumping them for info whysnow I had a unit that’s needed repairs and while I was on the phone we just shot the shit etc. Be cool/sly about it and you’ll get some info. I doubt they’ll just start telling you random earnings information but if you casually mention it I’m sure they’ll oblige. Sometimes the pulse settings on the older games needs a tweak and what better reference then the same game somewhere else in the country on PayRange.

    #14 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jkush18:

    hot shots linked basketballs.

    I always wanted to get a couple of those, you can't just get one though.

    Quoted from Jkush18:

    Don’t go calling them pumping them for info whysnow .

    k, so the info isn't readily available then... that's to bad. if they were able to farm that information and give it out to other payrange customers without violating others by naming names I might of thought about continuing with them.

    -1
    #15 1 year ago

    Despite hot shots being the highest PayRange enabled device in their current database, I’d be worried about balls needing inflating and or replaced often and theft. Plus the added liability of having someone getting jacked in the face with a wild toss. Side note, I’ve also heard that a few raw thrills games earn like a boss. More specifically the walking dead two player sit down and the Jurassic Park equivalent. However those are each $10,000 and moving one is a bit more difficult than a pin. Operating pinballs without any ancillary sources of revenue such as beer or atms etc is just not profitable anyway you slice it. On average newer sterns bring 100/month before retailer commissions. By the time you get your money back the game is trashed most of the time. So for my ultimate point, you really have to love Pinball to route them. If you want to make real money get a video game that two people have to play to have fun. Mario kart gp etc. Please chime in if my experience is an isolated case but from most folks I talk to I’m not way of base.

    #16 1 year ago

    Someone should start a thread for operators where they are transparent about their earnings and lessons learned from experience.

    #17 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jkush18:

    I’d be worried about balls needing inflating and or replaced often and theft. Plus the added liability of having someone getting jacked in the face with a wild toss.

    Theft would suck, but it's part of the game. As long as your games can eat the cost and still turn out, it shouldn't be a big thing. I have people running off with 8 balls, cue balls and plastic crappy darts all the time.

    Quoted from Jkush18:

    Operating pinballs without any ancillary sources of revenue such as beer or atms etc is just not profitable anyway you slice it. On average newer sterns bring 100/month before retailer commissions. If you want to make real money get a video game that two people have to play to have fun. Mario kart gp etc. Please chime in if my experience is an isolated case but from most folks I talk to I’m not way of base.

    at most locations I think you'd be right, which is why pinball is hard to justify unless your getting a bigger portion of the split at least 75%-90% (if there is a lot of pinball operators doing 50/50 where your from then I'm sure it'd be difficult to get anything more, in Houston operating pins isn't really a thing). I actually just renegotiated my split on pins and darts 2 months ago. Usually my new sterns do pretty good, payoff times with the new split averaging in the 2 year range. (my GB made 1200 on it's first month, haven't had it happen since or before on a new game though ). I've heard of people making a lot more with that title. Granted it was in the honeymoon phase, but man that would be fantastic to make that all the time on a few games.
    Older bally Williams usually bring in less, as expected, but it's nice not just having sterns. The remakes do about as good as the sterns usually, MMR did better sometimes.

    I try to only go with games with popular themes nobody else has, lot easier to do in Houston. Regardless, I opt for the premium/le edition of the game so even if we have the same title, it's a slightly different experience. Most people probably don't know any better as far as pro/premium, but I think enough do to make it worth it.

    I've found that the bigger the bank, the bigger the overall pot, but the less the games make individually. Seems like every game I add, adds maybe another 10-15% to the overall pot but takes maybe 5-10% from other games.

    Golden tees have always done really well for me, not sure if it's big where your from but might be worth a shot. Bigger newer arcade games scare me since there is no resale value really. Who is gonna want a giant walking dead arcade game in 5 or 10 years?

    #18 1 year ago
    Quoted from hocuslocus:

    Golden tees have always done really well for me, not sure if it's big where your from but might be worth a shot. Bigger newer arcade games scare me since there is no resale value really. Who is gonna want a giant walking dead arcade game in 5 or 10 years?

    So true. Thanks for you candidness.

    #19 1 year ago

    Just ask extremepinball he will tell you the basketball games make BANK

    #20 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jkush18:

    Operating pinballs without any ancillary sources of revenue such as beer or atms etc is just not profitable anyway you slice it. On average newer sterns bring 100/month before retailer commissions. By the time you get your money back the game is trashed most of the time. So for my ultimate point, you really have to love Pinball to route them.

    You must have some terrible locations for pinball. $100/mo BEFORE the split? Yikes. On the route I help with if we have a machine doing less than $200/mo AFTER the split, it's a candidate for being sold off and something else being brought in. I've turned the operator I help into a mercenary in that regard, and the results are paying off. If it doesn't work, move it, and if it's still not working, cut bait and move on. We're somewhat unique in that most are Prem and LE machines, but that can't be the whole difference. $100/mo pre-split would be really depressing.

    #21 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jkush18:

    Don’t go calling them pumping them for info whysnow I had a unit that’s needed repairs and while I was on the phone we just shot the shit etc. Be cool/sly about it and you’ll get some info. I doubt they’ll just start telling you random earnings information but if you casually mention it I’m sure they’ll oblige. Sometimes the pulse settings on the older games needs a tweak and what better reference then the same game somewhere else in the country on PayRange.

    I won't be calling them, butfrom the contract and TOS as I unerstand it, theydo not have legal rights to mine each operators personal data or share that info.

    This combined with fee inceases gives pause. On top of it all, pay range has been a very bad investment and a PITA IMHO. A very small population uses them, they did not add any revenue, and they are expensive for what they do.

    #22 1 year ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    A very small population uses them

    that's the surprising thing about them raising their fees. That is generally done *AFTER* the land grab phase (see Paypal). IMO the land grab has barely started. It appears to me they've probably run out of money already and need to turn a profit (or a clumsy attempt at doing so) and then cut themselves off at the knees.

    #23 1 year ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    machine doing less than $200/mo AFTER the split, it's a candidate for being sold off --- $100/mo pre-split would be really depressing.

    100 dollars would be a little depressing. I'd still probably have a couple because I enjoy it, but not near the amount I have now.
    There are a few games of mine that hit below the 200 mark on a regular basis, but I put soooo much work into them since they are older Bally/Williams games that I'd be even more depressed to let them go right now. Plus like I was saying, it's nice having a mixture of old and new. About to put a descent paragon out there, can't imagine it's going to make very much either. Regardless, it's nice being in a position to put the experience out there even if for a short time.

    Quoted from Whysnow:

    This combined with fee inceases gives pause. On top of it all, pay range has been a very bad investment and a PITA IMHO. A very small population uses them, they did not add any revenue, and they are expensive for what they do.

    I agree 100%, Seemed like a great idea at the time though. Glad I didn't get more before they did the fee increase.

    2 weeks later
    #24 1 year ago

    I was looking at a new location to route, and thought of payrange as maybe a way to make it easier for patrons and you just helped me decided to skip them. Thank you. I didn’t realize it turned into such a crap show.

    3 weeks later
    #25 1 year ago

    Can someone please post pics of PayRange physically setup on a machine and maybe some screenshots of the interface(s) ?

    I have 10 DBAs on 10 machines. I’m doing well. It’s no longer an experiment. Therefore I’m looking into PayRange. Thanks in advance and keep fighting the good fight guys!

    #26 1 year ago

    It's really easy. They plug in between the DBV (9 pin harness) and the game..and act as a pass through. That's it.

    The newer units pull the 120v from the DBV through the harness to power the devices

    What we are finding is at 'pinball locations' they are used about 60%. By that I mean a places where pinball players go to play pinball. We kinda have a home base with 10 or so machines...at that location PayRange is used a lot. It is nice to go to their web interface and see the details on each machine..which is updated on the fly. I think we get a bank deposit every Monday..or maybe Tuesday

    At places that only have like 2 machines...and attract the causal bar patron...they are very seldom used. We'll have months without a paypal transaction at a couple locations.

    We do offer your first game free when you sign up....and I think every 7 game you play on a machines is free also

    Quoted from ATLpb:

    Can someone please post pics of PayRange physically setup on a machine and maybe some screenshots of the interface(s) ?
    I have 10 DBAs on 10 machines. I’m doing well. It’s no longer an experiment. Therefore I’m looking into PayRange. Thanks in advance and keep fighting the good fight guys!

    #27 1 year ago

    Thank you, but does that mean I get to keep my DBAs and just “piggyback them” with some connector and then label it on an instruction card or something? I have no shame being clueless in this, because I am. Pics would be amazing

    #28 1 year ago

    Yep. You can keep the DBVs...and everything else. They have a special adapter if you are using a card reader system. You get everything you need..including the hardness that plugs into the DBV

    I don't have any pics right now. But if you go to their site... they have installation videos.

    The wires they splice into the coin mech wires are just for tracking. Meaning they can keep track of incoming coins. That part of their software is terrible. The 'cash' numbers are never correct. So don't get excited when you see $300 the first week you install it =). The mobile payment numbers area actuate

    You just need the 9 pin connection between the DBV and game in that video...and of course hook the harness up to the PR device

    Quoted from ATLpb:

    Thank you, but does that mean I get to keep my DBAs and just “piggyback them” with some connector and then label it on an instruction card or something? I have no shame being clueless in this, because I am. Pics would be amazing

    #29 1 year ago

    PayRange is best used for a variety of coin operated amusements not just exclusive to pinball machines.
    Many of our photo booths, skeeball, basketball, air hockey, and jukeboxes are using them and are making good money. I know we have well over 100 units. Install for power and I/O (the coin door/direct switch interface board on WMS pinball machines) is very easy with the "dongle", and not obtrusive to other payment methods such as bill acceptors or mechs. Then the unit is properly tested using a technician code using a personal smartphone for connectivity. I/O connections are just as easy on other pieces of equipment.

    Those operators that have less than 10 units may not have enough substantial income to make it profitable. You cannot test case with a single install and expect to have good results, as you will acquire very little audit data for canvassing application use on routes. They are best for high traffic zones, and those that are more technology savvy, such as hipster barcade areas or large volume retro arcades. An operator is not going to make any money using PayRange in an old, dark bar that caters to retired men, telling war stories, drinking beer at noon, in their pajamas.

    #30 1 year ago
    Quoted from Monster_Bash:

    What we are finding is at 'pinball locations' they are used about 60%. By that I mean a places where pinball players go to play pinball.

    Think this says it all, I'd definitely do some canvasing and see what type of players you have coming in. you also have to do a lot of promoting which I never did. Like I said it only recently started getting utilized on a regular basis... and mainly by pinball players.

    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    PayRange is best used for a variety of coin operated amusements not just exclusive to pinball machines.

    Out of all my equipment I think the only thing that would benefit is the vending machines, the pinballs, pool tables and maybe the arcade machines. My other equipment like golden tees, buck hunters, megatouch, E-darts, jukebox would probably would never get used. Think it has to be a certain type of machine like you listed, like a redemption style with no online presence. That and you have to have a lot of it.

    Jukebox? They can already pay with their phone and select their music with the same app..
    Are you using an older jukebox?

    Honestly, If I had a bar and games were my main pull. I would go with a card system, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure you don't need to pay state and local tax (decals) since your not technically taking money. I pay over 5k a year now, and that number will only get bigger from year to year .
    Pretty sure it's the reason a lot of places either go free play, card play or tokens.
    Not 100% about the card system though. Thought it was pretty cool when I saw it at level 257

    #31 1 year ago

    All new AMI/Rowe are not on Payrange.
    Old Rockola were added, until replaced, location specfic, some owners still want "older" equipment, although we try to explain advantages. Credit card functions are all disabled. Previous generation Touchtunes are being phased out.

    Primary retro arcade has ALL new pinball games with Payrange, along with with arcades such as the new TMNT game, and most high volume games. Older pinball machines is roughly 50% installed dependent on era.

    No use for smoke machines I am aware, and of course not ATMs. No coin changers either, where applicable, most of outer locations are responsible to fill their own anyway.

    #32 1 year ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    All new AMI/Rowe are not on Payrange.
    Old Rockola were added, until replaced, location specfic, some owners still want "older" equipment, although we try to explain advantages. Previous generation Touchtunes are being phased out.
    Primary retro arcade has ALL new pinball in Payrange, along with with arcades such as the new TMNT game, and most high volume games. Older pinball machines is roughly 50% installed dependent on era.

    Quarterworld?

    5 months later
    #33 7 months ago

    If you use payrange, make sure you check them every now and again. I had a game giving out 30 credits for a dollar, my vending machine was giving out 2 dollars for every one dollar. I haven't changed anything in a long time on them... it just started doing this on their own.

    I had to reset both devices and to clear up the issue, I asked tech support if there is anything I can do about this and they basically said "sorry that sucks, keep an eye on it and let us know". I aint got time to be checking this stuff all time, can't really get rid of them at this point either. Think I'm just gonna stick my change machine on payrange and call it a day.

    2 months later
    #34 4 months ago
    Quoted from hocuslocus:

    If you use payrange, make sure you check them every now and again. I had a game giving out 30 credits for a dollar, my vending machine was giving out 2 dollars for every one dollar. I haven't changed anything in a long time on them... it just started doing this on their own.
    I had to reset both devices and to clear up the issue, I asked tech support if there is anything I can do about this and they basically said "sorry that sucks, keep an eye on it and let us know". I aint got time to be checking this stuff all time, can't really get rid of them at this point either. Think I'm just gonna stick my change machine on payrange and call it a day.

    Funny, I was thinking of getting a unit just for my change machine. I had hemmed and hawed for a long time because the Coinbox Podcast guys had great luck with them in MN. But I went back one time an the unit was another $10 every few months. That was when I was thinking of putting all my machines on Payrange. At that price I could have bought another System 11 and we were still growing then. So I kept putting it off and now I'm glad I did. With the current fees I'd not want to stick with them.

    Many of my games don't earn $50 a month, let alone $200. So until the pinball culture here is an actual thing I'll be sticking with a change machine and quarters.

    #35 4 months ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    Many of my games don't earn $50 a month, let alone $200. So until the pinball culture here is an actual thing I'll be sticking with a change machine and quarters.

    yup, I probably would of kept going with them if it wasn't for the 50 cent per week, per machine thing. Since I cycle games it'd be easier to buy one for each machine then mess with swapping them all the time. If they would of gone up to 5 or 6% instead of the 50 cents, that would of been cool as well.
    It's not like it's a lot of money, but I try to avoid subscription fees regardless of cost. 50 cents per machine, per week adds up pretty fast.

    People who use the devices really like them, it just takes a while to grow it. After those last two issues, I decided it time to go back to dollars/quarters again. The biggest thing people seem to like is not having to bring money, so I stuck one on a change machine and check it pretty regular to make sure it's doing what's it's supposed to. Just wish there was some way you could check the devices without having to credit your account every time.

    Also it's a lot easier to check one machine every week for proper operation, then XX machines. Don't know about you, but I don't have time for that.
    When a machine is giving out 29 credits more then it's supposed to, that's a big problem regardless if it was only two isolated events.

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