Yes there is risk. If the paypal transaction is processed normally (as a purchase), the purchaser can claim foul and and get his money back from paypal. Just like he used a credit card.

If the purchaser "gifts" you the money through paypal, then there is no recourse. He cannot get his money back.

Paypal sucks for the seller but is great for the buyer... Paypal looks at seller as guilty until proven innocence. They always give benefit to buyer.

Yes he can. If he gifts the money and pays with a credit card he would still be able to dispute the charge with the credit card company. Who knows where it goes from there.

As long as they 'gift' it...I'm pretty sure there is no recourse on the buyers end.

There's is a chance if they gift it it on a CC and pay the fees themselves..if they were to put a fraud claim in with their CC you might get screwed. Not real sure how that works though.

If they have the cash in a bank account why not just wire it? That's pretty much how I handle my purchases if they are long distance

I sold one machine using escrow.com, worked fine and gave secure to seller and byer.

Yeah, pretty much. If you don't know the buyer or have any reservation about him I wouldn't use Paypal... the buyer can make your life miserable if he wants to.

Paypal won't send you a bill, they'll simply debit the money from your bank without asking.

I personally wouldn't take Paypal on a game that expensive, unless the buyer had a good explanation. If he says he wants to put it on a credit card, and can only do that via Paypal, that makes sense at least.

By taking cash, you simplify the deal for yourself. You have your money, he has his game, and there's no fear of recourse (aside from, say, a lawsuit.) As others have said, Paypal disputes are a little too inclined to go in the buyer's favor. It's not as bad as it used to be, but I still wouldn't risk it.

Just give him your bank number and the bank router number and have him direct deposit to your bank account. Safest, fastest way to get money and NO recourse for the buyer. They can put money in your account, can never take out. These are the same numbers on a check from your checking account and the bank router number.

Rats, this means that awesome looking CFTBL is probably sold

If you're shipping the machine, then have him send you a USPS money order instead of PayPal. If it's done in person, the best way, then PP deposit with cash on exchange. If you want a deposit, then have him use the PP gift option, but only for $100 or so.

If the entire transaction is done through PP, and he complains that your shipped machine is not what he wanted/expected, then PP will investigate, via emails usually, but their decision often favors the buyer, depending on the situation. PP will ask the buyer to ship the item/machine back to you.

Any money returned to the buyer by PP would only be done after the machine is returned to you via shipping verification which PP will demand, and the buyer is responsible for the return shipping charges. This would be true via gift or regular payment option.

The heck with Paypal. Get a wire transfer to your account. It costed me 20 dollars to do it and was very simple as a buyer. Seller got his money within 4 hours or so and was happy. But now the buyer can get screwed if the seller decides to keep the game. Food for thought.

All these factors are why shows or cash upon local pick up have been my practice for the last 10 years.

I believe that when you "gift" someone funds using an existing Paypal balance in your account (no CC involved), the sender of said funds has absolutely no way to get those funds back.

I think this is probably true, but do you have a good way of knowing how a buyer funded the transaction? I'm not aware of any way to be sure.

Here is what I do whenever I take PP on a game (or large) transaction:

-take a quick 1 minute video of the game's condition prior to pickup for cosmetics and for working condition. Make sure the video is time stamped (use a copy of the daily news or a receipt from a purchase that day). Take a separate video of the game all packed up with a vocal description of the packing job, if you had to pack/pallet it (IE no NAVL or white glove service)

-Try not to take PP for an item actually picked up by the buyer (not by a shipper). If you have to, make sure you get a signed receipt with a copy of their driver's license info, and tag #/vehicle description. Think about it... do you REALLY know who is picking up your game? A good solution here is to get a CC reader app for your phone/tablet... it costs nothing up front, and as long as you swipe the card, there is proof of a PHYSICAL transaction at your location (as long as location services are activated on your phone).

-on the receipt, make sure the terms of sale are spelled out in plain English (as is no warranty, 60 day warranty, etc.)

-Whether customer or shipper pickup... ALWAYS make sure you get some sort of receipt/proof of pickup, with printed representation from the buyer.

-make sure you legally state to the customer that they are responsible for any issues that occur during the shipping process. This can be done in an eBay description, or a return email.

Say what you want about all of this being OCD... I call it due diligence. PP is not regulated like a financial intermediary, and with access to your accounts, they can pretty much do what they want, when they want.

The only reason I would say completely avoid this time is because you get up a bad vibe from the potential buyer. Under normal circumstances I would say PayPal is pretty safe for the seller although it is definitely safer for the buyer. Take lots of pictures and describe your item accurately. I have been through a dispute with the seller and by no means do they just 100% side with the buyer. They basically serve as a mediator. I have sold many items up to $8000 and taken PayPal as payment.

paypal is usually in total support of the buyer . I regularly receive chargebacks after the purchaser has installed a rom i sold backwards and blown it up. No recourse with paypal , the money is just gone.
Dave Astill

Oh yeah... if you get a bad vibe from this deal... demand cash or wire transfer. I know it is a lot of money and you may be tempted to make the quick buck with certain transactions being so easy, but better to be safe than sorry.

That sounds good but you will still lose in the buyer wants. There have been people here get screwed with all the info like that to back them up. Paypal does not care and will screw the seller.

Wire to bank or cash only IMO.

PayPal is terrible, I sold an item just before Christmas and mailed it to the buyer. They filed a claim with American Express and PayPal took $562 out of my account. Even with shipping purchased through PayPal and a tracking number. I called them and they said it was a dispute with the credit card company and basically tough luck. I will never use paypal again.

When so much money is on the line, always go with your gut. If the guy seems "a little off", walk away.

Bank services have new options that I've used, like Chase's "quick pay".

Let me tell you as a buyer, I would never wire anyone money unless I knew them (in which case paypal would be equally safe) It's great that the sellers think they deserve all the protection, but as the buyer you have none. If Paypal was that unsafe it would not be as accepted as it is. There's also a reason banks and other institutions have pens that check for counterfeit bills, you could have a cash transaction screw you.

If you can get your buyer to wire the funds, do it! But I'm pretty sure in most cases the seller needs the buyer, more than the buyer needs the seller. For high ticket items many need to use a CC as payment and PayPal allow the buyer to do that.

There have been a few people screwed I'm sure, but it's mostly it's unfounded rumors. I just think it's hilarious all these sellers that think a buyer should have absolutely NO protection buying a pin sight unseen.

Is your money gone? or is it being held during the dispute? Probably the later...it's not a perfect system when you have a dishonest seller/buyer.

Just to finish up my rant, since I tend to be a defender of PayPal. I have almost solely used it on Ebay, where I can get a pretty good determination of the buyers integrity through their feedback. I might be a little more leery without any knowledge of the person I am selling to.

Did this person email you? If so dump the header into this page and it might be able to trace where the email originated...It's worked for me in the past: http://www.ip-tracker.org/find/email-finder.php

Ask for a phone number and call this person. For a 5k transaction you should probably talk to them

What's weird is if you request to pay via paypal (even as a gift) some sellers assume you're a scammer. The only deal I've ever had go sideways was when I sent a physical cashier's check to a seller and USPS took 4x as long as usual to deliver it. Even services like escrow.com are problematic since the condition of a pin can change pretty substantially during shipping.

My horror story. I had a Deadly Spawn Hand Puppet listed on Ebay. I said it was the first one off the production line after the Prototype was ok'd by me. A guy contacted me and asked if the Prototype was for sale. I said sure, but call me and we'll discuss details. He calls and agreed to pay $1,000 for it. He asked for a COA which I provided. I sent him a bunch of pictures and told him it was, as my regular auctions, "No Returns."
He PayPal'd the money and I sent the Puppet along with plenty of extra stuff. About 3 weeks later I get a box in the mail, signed for it, and lo and behold, it was my Puppet! No communication from the buyer. Almost a month after that, I get an email from him asking where his refund was! I told him there was no returns. That was the last I ever heard from him. No explanation as to what was wrong.
For all all I know, this could have been part of another deal he made that fell through...or he just wanted to make a mold of this rare item!
PayPal contacts me and says he put a claim in with his credit card company. After I explained the whole thing, PayPal said they were on my side, but it was up to the credit card company and it could take up to 2 months for a decision. Then, because i'm such a "good customer with perfect Feedback" they would not freeze my account. I asked if they were trying to tell me something. They just laughed. I emptied my account. I have nothing linked to that account. No credit card or anything. Everything is paid with PayPal money.
2 months later I get an email stating the credit card company sided with him and they gave me a negative balance on that PayPal account. My friend has another account that I use so I don't sell anything through the old one.
It's been another almost 2 months and I don't know what they are going to do. I DO know they will have to sue me to get any money and 2 of my best friends are lawyers and are waiting to take this on (for free) if needed.
...more to come...

Absolutely. Unless the other party is a close friend, I wouldn't even consider proceeding with the transaction without talking to them on the phone first.

In a dispute, PayPal might give you a song and dance about how they are in agreement with you but in the end, they will always side with the credit card company that funds the purchase. In other words, the buyer wins, the seller loses.

That is why I will only accept cash or a bank wire transfer when selling a pin. Buyers need to investigate the pin and seller ahead of time. If that doesn't work for you then don't buy a pin sight unseen. There is no room for negotiation after a pin has shipped. Then it is too late. PayPal and credit cards allow that opening and there are slimeballs out there that will take advantage of it.

That sounds exactly like what happened to me. They said the credit card company sided with the buyer and put a negative balance on my account. I am out the item and the money however. I put a block on my bank account that prohibits PayPal from withdrawling any money. I have been a great paypal customer since 1999 and have perfect ebay feedback since then also. They have lost a customer forever over a crook. They will need to sue me also ill keep you updated as well.

Thanks. Should be interesting. (at least I got the item back!)

If you get a letter from a law firm on this, I would send them your sock puppet with the terms of your sale. Here is what he bought, No returns, so bugger off.

The buyer already got the refund so he won't sue you. PayPal might try to chase you down for that balance, though.

My friend got screwed on an iPad he sold on eBay. The buyer claimed that he never received it, and the funds were yanked from his PayPal account. In his case, he made a key mistake, though. Even though he had had tracking confirmation that the guy received the package, he didn't send it to the guy's confirmed address. If you do this, you lose all recourse as a seller.

I actually have an iPad mini up on eBay right now ...

ebay.com link: itm

I hope a legal case doesn't happen to you, but it would certainly be an interesting case. You stated clearly "no return", yet the buyer returned it without notifying you. PayPal should have backed you up, but obviously didn't. Scary for dedicated PP sellers like me.

Whoa!...who's the butterfingers??

I guess they can get overridden by the credit card company...

Here's my PayPal horror story:

I just recently sold two machines to a buyer in Kentucky. He purchased both and agreed to send me PayPal. I won't name names, but he's a well-respected dealer. I had done my research on him and I trusted him. He called me on a Friday and said he was interested in the machines. We agreed on a price of $4000 for the pair. He agreed to send $1000 each day over a period of four days. I agreed, he sent the money, and NAVL picked up the machines. Obviously at that point it was a done deal. I had placed an order into Marco which pulled directly from my PayPal balance, leaving me with $3850 and change in my PayPal account. I transferred all of that money out of my PayPal account into my bank account. I woke up the next morning to an email that said my transaction had been reversed; PayPal wouldn't let me have my money. Something about a PayPal Debit MasterCard issue; I'd never ordered a PayPal Debit MasterCard. I called to get to the bottom of this -- next thing I know, they've locked my account. I can't even see my money anymore. So I'm on the phone and this guy locks my account and tells me that, per the terms of service, they have the right to hold this money for up to 90 days. He locked my account and told me there was nothing they could do until the end of the 90 days. I called back in the next day to see what I could do to get my money back -- I mean, there's nearly $4000 on the line. I speak with some guy who says, "OK, I'll send you $1000 today, and you'll have to call back in each day for the next few days to get each $1000 as we can only send $1000 a day." So I did. Next day, the guy says, "Oh, the next $1000 has already been scheduled." OK, so I'm waiting again. Next day, a guy tells me they will send me the whole balance. It never happens. A week later, I get an email. "We're still working on this." A week after that, the money finally shows up in my bank account. I'm just glad I eventually got it.

Long story short, PayPal undoubtedly has the WORST customer service in the industry. Obviously, I wasn't screwed by the buyer -- he did nothing wrong. I don't know if PayPal was just trying to keep my money or what. The biggest risk of using PayPal is having PayPal themselves trying to screw you. Definitely not as trustworthy as my regular bank. I'm going to be 1000 times more careful about using PayPal from now on, especially for large transactions.

Yes, sometimes they want to hold your money just to see if the other guy is gonna be a problem. It's shite, I tell ya!

I don't understand why because they wouldn't have even had enough to pay the other guy back -- there was only $3850 in change rather than $4000. I suppose $3850 is better than nothing, though, if that had to pay him back for some reason.

It's not like there were any liens or debts or something like that on my account -- I had paid for all the transactions that I had made. I'm figuring they probably just wanted to keep the money for themselves.

If for whatever reason, he said the machines were "not as described" they would return his money and take it out of your account....

PayPal holds the money for one reason, and one reason only. Interest. It may not seem like a lot, but when they do that to millions of customers, it adds up.

that too