That can’t be real?

Nothing feels more dystopian right now than watching a YouTube video where the content creator purposely and openly avoids using certain words to try to fly under the algorithm radar. Shows with hundreds of thousands or even millions of viewers abbreviating terms or using initials and acronyms because they know the machine will punish them if they discuss certain things. It's so common that it has become routine.

Has it occurred to you that there are reasons why this is the case? I'm not defending it per se, but my point here is the easily ability to disseminate hate speech is not something these companies want to be responsible for. I don't think it's unreasonable for social media companies to not want their platforms used in that manor. It's not dystopian at all and it's weird to see someone call it that given the type of "speech" you're indirectly defending...

The issue continues to be "who" defines "what"... It'd be a whole lot easier if hatred wasn't so prevalent in humanity but that's not the world we live in so what exactly do you want them to do? Nothing? I HIGHLY doubt that...

Jeff

i’m

In a country that holds the value of free speech paramount, the "solution" to bad speech is.... better and more compelling speech, NOT censorship. Full stop.

Awesome... If only we lived in a fantasy land... When you're dealing with the reach and availability of modern information channels, fighting "fire with fire" is ludicrous. Everyone loves free speech until it's speech they don't agree with or it's taken advantage of to do something horrific. Do you really want YouTube to have bomb making videos readily available? That's the world you want?

True free speech requires a discipline humanity simply does not posses. The idea sounds great but it's just not practical anymore, if it ever was. This is not an easy subject at all which is why it was so stupid for PayPal to even attempt/hint/suggest to wade in these waters to begin with.

There's a reason why you cannot yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater...

Jeff

Except that no one that's a "free speech!!!!111" person actually understands it. I've gotten alot of mileage out of this over the years:

free_speech (resized).png

You can tell fire in a crowded theater.

You haven't missed anything yet. Nothing went into effect. Most of us really don't know exactly what the intention was here and are playing the guessing the worst possible scenario game. I would say no one agrees with the idea in general, but as to what extent or how they would do half of what we think they were attempting is unknown.

Sigh... Not going to debate the minutiae of that but you knew exactly what I meant and decided to be pedantic... Ugh... Brandenburg v Ohio is an interesting read if you ever care to explore the legal limits of free speech in America...

Jeff

What do I tell it?

The thing is....there's a big push from the opposite side to change that...at least when it comes to the disinformation they want to spread.

And the "i know my rights' crowd..does not.

it's the same reason mods prevent us from having any meaningful political gun fights.

Yes, the reason is you don't have a 1A right to yell "Fire!" in a theater. The 1A doesn't permit all speech. It has a well-adjudicated body of what speech is and isn't allowed. Speech that a reasonable person would find leads to both credible and imminent harm is not protected by the 1A (hence, yelling "Fire!" in a theatre is not protected).

Letting someone who speaks "hate" speech know they're an a-hole and subjecting them to criticism, scorn, and withering parody is precisely the response that is appropriate in a free society. That's "better speech" at work. Censorship ante actum, not so much.

The right to free speech being reduced to whether or not the government arrests you is a poisonously reductive form of the word "right".

Now that I agree with... The problem continues to be the avalanche effect if you will...

Jeff

But...that was its intent. So you can speak out to the powers that be without fear of prosecution (of course...that's in the light of day...what they do to you behind the scenes..well).

What opposite side? Regardless of political leanings, the definition is what it is. Again, mods on pinside aren't inhibiting your "right to free speech" (see below).

Take it up with the constitution. As much as you (or people) want it to mean "every stupid idea is of equal merit and value to society", it doesn't.

I was agreeing with you, not disagreeing. And what I was referring to is the laws Florida and Texas have tried to put in place to prevent social media platforms from 'selective/biased' censoring.

What “disinformation? Based on the kind you want to spread? Your side?

The fact is both “sides” are looking to reign in big cap tech and only one “side” controls all of social media.

There is a difference between “bomb making videos” and being censored for Covid research that doesn’t fit a narrative, OR giving Lord of the Rings a 1 star.

When you go too far in overstepping the bounds then the FREE MARKET steps in when legitimate free speech gets trampled on by one “side”

You mentioned Texas and Florida. It’s just the beginning.

Ohhhh 10-4, ha my bad totally misinterpreted your last sentence there, I'm with ya!

? Your rights can be violated by other citizens. Freedom of Religion doesn't just mean that the government isn't arresting you. It also means that the government protects you from angry folks who intend to burn down your church. It would be like saying that 13th Amendment only means the government won't own slaves...? Constitutional mandates reign in the behavior of people toward each other, not just the government's behavior toward a population. So no, First Amendment isn't just "the government isn't arresting you," not by a long shot.

We've reached that point where we can't discuss what is truly meant. I don't disagree with you, but it is more lop sided than even. I know you and I will disagree on that, so no point going there, but ask yourself who is responsible for policing people who don't tell the truth and purposely mislead people for their own gain? And who has the say what is truth? I do not think 'loudest mouth' is the correct answer. Nor is, "because I don't want to believe it is true" or "I read it on facebook".

IBTL!!!

Social media, YouTube etc aren't free speech platforms. They are private companies. They censor people to push an agenda and make money as well as prevent liability and losing money based on getting sued.

It's all about getting more clicks and attention and making more revenue.
Stirring shit and blocking fringe ideas just allows them to appeal to the most people and maximize revenue.

I don't understand how people let their feelings get hurt so badly over social media policies.
It's just business.

Just like pinside should shut this thread down because it's a fucking pinball hobby website not Twitter.

With all due respect, that's not the issue. The crux of the matter is someone at PayPal had this idea and we got it in writing from the source, whether or not they are deciding to enforce it. These companies should not even consider illegally fining people that violate their political narrative. What you say and how you use the service are completely unrelated.

We know what they are thinking. For any StarCraft fans this is like when Zeratul visited the slain Overmind on Aiur and delved deep into its thoughts by tapping its neural connections.

I honestly believed you held that position as you used it to wrap up your point. I am very untrusting of the government on both sides and have no faith in technocrats. What PayPal attempted to do is wrong and they will do it again. For this opinion/observation you implied I was a person who wears a tin foil hat. I am as complicated and nuanced as you are. I offer you a handshake and an invitation to DM me if you are ever in Salt Lake City and would like to get a drink and play some pinball.

Nazis received a paycheck too. Guess it was just business.
Come over and look at Strato Flite next time your 1/4 mile away from me.

I just got fined by Paypal 2500 for saying Ultraman was a great game in a post here. Damn it!

Fair enough. Thank you and my apologies.

Jeff

It comes down to personal responsibility. For your own words and actions.

That’s the only way. Instead of silencing one person or side you compete with them in the arena of ideas. Period

We are misled every single day from top to bottom. It’s not just one person or one side. Educate yourselves from multiple sources and decide what makes sense for you.

The blindfold is off Lady justice at the Federal level, laws aren’t being administered fairly.

At the local level? We get to at least pick where we want to live and under what circumstances. We all see it. As it’s gone too far the migration of people and companies do what’s in their best interest.

That choice no one can stop.

When things go too far, like they have, the country gets have its say. We find out in less than 30 days what people think and want.

My question is how was Paypal going to monitor what all of their customers were posting all over the internet? Why/how would a payment processing company monitor social media posts?

It is just business. Meta, Disney, PayPal etc found that out.

Piss off 1/2 the country and you lose “business”. Keep it up

Michael Jordan understands he’d rather sell shoes to 100% of the market. Just biz

1/2 is a gargantuan stretch... It's more like 20%... Again assuming we're talking about the same group without explaining what we're saying for moderation reasons...

Jeff

20% acting on abuse has a material effect on their business. The other 30% that believe what the 20% did but haven’t taken action yet because they too aren’t as connected to day to day BS like this.

It’s the 40% in the middle that aren’t paying attention to much or could give a shit about what’s happening.

When you don’t agree with a viewpoint the answer isn’t to try and silence it. Never is, never will be in this country

That may have been the case before Dobbs but it's possibly not the case now... We'll know in just under a month naturally but it would be sort of ironic if the other color cleaned house only because people felt like things should have been left alone...

Jeff

Agreed.

Jeff

Can someone explain why it's cool here to disparage black people being aware of structural racism?

I'm all for telling paypal to f_ck off, but this "anti woke" dogwhistle nonsense is alarming.

Oh thank god you signed this post. 3/4 the way through I thought I was reading Bill’s comments. You can imagine my confusion!

Like Carville just said, they better get more of an argument that is fading like “Dobbs”.

He famously said in 1992, “it’s the economy stupid”.

We are about to find out who is ok with what and if people believe their lives are better off today?

No arguments here... I'm just not sure in the wake of Dobbs whether economics are as much of a forefront as you'd expect them to be given the current situation. Not saying you're wrong or I'm right, it's just an interesting dynamic...

Jeff

That’s just it right there, if people disagree that there is some kind of “structural racism” then you can’t respond to being called a racist.

The people who cried wolf racist story isn’t working now either.

You don’t get to assign the views of a few to the masses. Sorry.

If I ever got charged $2,500 for misinformation, then they should as well, because perhaps then they were never truly my “pal” to begin with

Well, we will see soon enough. People get that it’s up to the states to decide and Colorado agrees that abortion is the way to go. Ditto for Kansas and many other states that already have that right.

Inflation? That’s a big deal for everyone. Just saying.

At least we are able to have the discussion. More of the idea exchange should occur

I said Ultraman looked cool and someone offered it to me for $2500 off the MSRP! Wow!

Well yeah, there's no argument that structural racism doesn't exist. It does, unless you want to go full flat-earther here. You're letting a fear of being called 'racist' define how you react and absorb information that feels uncomfortable to you. Understanding structural forces isn't some wizard spell, it's a major academic thread that's evolved over a century. It'd be like dismissing "psychology" because Xenu said it was bad. (or more specifically, saying it isn't real!)
We use lenses of understanding to comprehend the world around us. It is a one tool amongst many others. If the thought of it still gets you upset, there are massive amounts of academic literature on the topic I can point you to.

We can't really discuss it but it rhymes with "because they don't believe there is any".

Does anyone know payment processors that try and operate outside of the influence of USA? There is a multi-decades history of payment processors being brought to submit to USA legislation, or threat of legislation, and I'm assuming that the PayPal move is somewhat similar. Mastercard and Visa regularly restrict who can use their services in a similar manner, via somewhat obsequious guidelines, which are then passed along to companies who wish to utilize those services. (the starkest examples are always companies that provide 18+ materials)
I wonder if this causes a bearish response in cryptoland?

The problem here is your version of too far, and my version of my too far are on opposite ends of the spectrum most likely. You are either okay with complete asshats lying and being disparaging at the expense of others or you are not. If you are ONLY concerned about the economy, that doesn't excuse you from humanity and the people you decide on and what comes of it. We have already seen where that road is backtracking to. That does not mean everyone on the opposite side is good, but there is a very clear bad here, and it isn't the ones asking for equality.

As you allude to, the pendulum swings. Possibly for the first time ever though, there is a dramatic perspective difference in the people as to which way it has actually swung.

Anyway back on topic.

If everyone quits using Paypal, we are going to need a new transfer system for Pinside.

PinsidePal?

I find the "pendulum" metaphors only to be useful if we're talking about politics as sports teams, which is my least favourite way to approach anything in life. (Except for sports teams)

We all saw that here on Pinside during the Covid thread.