You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider Elvishasleft.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
I could have lost money to him my one time talking to him but I have a pretty good bullshit detector.
He did the old bait and switch and I bailed.
Only other time this has happened to me was TNT way back when hate to say.
Said they had something "in stock" took a deposit and then tried to switch me on to something else when it became apparent they didnt have my order.
Quoted from flynnibus:I wonder if he was getting someone to sell him games for 'on route' (which usually can get a slightly better price allowance from Stern) and then were selling those games to retail customers and trying to use the extra few hundred as his margin. The distributor gets the benefit of higher volume and the built in stern discount to make the two tier sale jive for both parties. Then, when the few hundred isn't enough, he gets tempted by collecting money for premiums and pushing pros.
Quoted from snaroff:The challenge I've had with this fiasco is determining who is lying...JD/ASOA or the distributors! That's why, ultimately, the manufacturers need to take some ownership for the "system" that enabled JD/ASOA.
Hate to break it to you but in the world of "grey market" trading there is often a blind eye turned to what happens after the initial from factory sale.
For a manufacturer once they get paid for the goods and its "in the channel" they dont really have much control over what happens with it.... or generally care for that matter.
Grey market trading isnt illegal at all but it can and does violate distribution agreements...
Quoted from bobukcat:This is completely incorrect for a whole lot of products, particularly anything generally sold to enterprise / businesses as opposed to consumers. I've worked for manufacturers in various tech industries for most of my life and they absolutely care about what happens once the product enters distribution. This has implications for service (manufacturer will not offer service / repair of grey market items), ability to get software upgrades, add licenses for functionality, etc. You may be correct about how the Pinball industry works but to broadly apply to that to all manufacturing is inaccurate.
Thats fair and it will vary from industry to industry.
I did say "often" and wasnt implying thats the way it is for every company. Some brands very much care where the goods go.
For consumer goods it is often the case that the manufacturer simply does not care as long as they get paid and their sales go up.
They arent about to go after a huge distributor they make a ton of money off and shut them down over it.
Send them a polite letter to stop?? maybe. 
Quoted from Aniraf:Lastly I will say, although complete opinion, it is possible that a small business man got in too deep too fast and was hugely impacted by the pandemic. I waffle back and forth as to my own belief here, but if you look at some of the facts he actually could have been running a reputable business which was crippled by an uncontrollable situation.
My run in with this dickhead was something like two years ago and he had his dancing shoes on then... I dont recall any pandemic then.
People ignored all the signs and warnings because they were getting things on the cheap.
End of day this about greed... both him and the buyers undercutting the official dealers to save a few bucks.
Sorry people had issues but you know when things are too good to be true (like games at dealer cost to end users) they probably are. blah blah.
(cue the down votes for being honest)
Quoted from flynnibus:And what rubs many wrong is that people let this guy continue to operate unflagged.
As you even noted yourself, once things were public things radically changed. Letting these guys continue to operate under the guise of secrecy is people selfishly trying to make themselves whole before letting others in on the gig. I mean, where is the guy going to get money to make you right from if not from other people?Doesn't change that he was making shadey deals long before the pandemic... even if he started out with legit ones. The pandemic can only be attributed to maybe taking the wind out of the sails and causing the house of cards to fall. Clearly he was doing dubious deals before COVID, and COVID just helped bust the bubble when revenue streams dry up.
Shady shit was going on for 2 years.
But people were getting games on the cheap so.....
Quoted from iceman44:If they are judgment proof fraud doesn’t help anybody receive a dime! Does that penetrate yet?
Well this is likely correct... someone in my biz got sued for a ridiculous sum of money and lost (rightly so).
They basically said, well that sucks, shrugged and closed the company and started a new one.
Nobody can collect because he had it set up so he could skate.
This shit does happen.
Quoted from iceman44:This shit does happen. ALL THE TIME! Lol
Yes it does as much as I dislike agreeing with you.
In another case someone I know got off because they had their dog signed on as an owner. Not kidding...
the dog was called as a witness by the judge.
the lawyer said... um he's not here because he's a dog.
Judge asks the other lawyer do you know you sued a dog? he says..... no.
Case dismissed.
and this is in NYC... and not a joke.
Quoted from ucsbaviator:Thanks! So game exchange is taking deposits on Iron Maiden. Would this be legit since they are a reputable dealer?
And people wonder how things like this happen.
In the middle of a thread where people got ripped off prepaying someone is asking if its "OK" to prepay. 
Anytime you prepay anything you are assuming that risk.... I dont care who it is.
Someone gets covid or gets hit by a truck and you lose your money.
If you like acting as a personal bank for your dealer go ahead and prepay just dont come crying when delays happen or your money disappears.
Quoted from snaroff:Funny you mention this. I'd actually like to purchase a GNRLE, but really don't like the "policy" of the non-refundable deposit. From my perspective, there should be a "time out" on locking my money up. If JJP can't deliver a game in say 60 days, I should be able to pull my refund back. This agreement to give them unlimited time to build my game is BS...
Yah this.... they take your money and have no idea when they can deliver.
Everything is backordered and late at this point.
There are people who threw down deposits months ago and are still waiting on games.
Its a "common practice" to give deposits and hope you get your game someday but a dumb one IMO.
If you look at Sterns website they have distributors (to sell into locations) and dealers ( to sell to consumer)....
People think they are the same thing but they arent.
I would imagine he got into a big distributor and was likely buying games meant for location only.
I would also assume they are priced cheaper than the discounts that dealers get which is why there was some margin to work with there.
Quoted from iceman44:I think that’s part of it. And why and how he became a JJP distributor. They won’t chime in however.
His amusement centers and routes were growing and he added pinball to them. That’s how he got involved I believe. JJP wanted to put games in those locations he had
Well yah likely, and I mentioned them about 100 posts ago.
JJP etc wont chime in because they likely knew it was happening and chose to do nothing about it.
Its a bad look when your distribs are selling out of their lane and cuttting the heads off your dealers in the process.
I feel as bad for them (the dealers) as anyone who lost money since all those sales and customers were taken off their books.
The ones who need to have a chat with the manufacturers are the authorized dealers who had biz taken off their plate by "unfair competition" and market manipulation.
IMO there is no way the manufactures were clueless this volume of games was being sold outside of their proper channels and chose to do nothing about it.
This goes back to parallel trading I brought up earlier.... this happens in a ton of consumer businesses
It is up to the manufacturer and brand holders to hold those they sell to accountable to their agreements and to call them out on selling outside of them.
If they chose to not do that in this case (which is likely) this shit is on them as much as anyone as they allowed this low pricing to fly and did not protect their authorized dealers.
Likely a big distrib was doing this and noone had the balls to tell them to stop (dont want to piss off the big buyers) and didnt care because end of day they still got paid.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I’m still leaning toward theft / insurance fraud / some other bush league grift than this convicted “undercutting the dealers” scheme you guys keep bandying around, which don’t make any fuggin sense when you consider the tiny profit margins distributors make on pinball machines.
Either way it really doesn’t matter. amusement Scam of America has been called out and exposed and that should be the end of it. Hopefully he pays everybody back and moves on to some other grift far away from our beloved hobby.
Its some mix of all the above.... (again its important to note that a distributor and a dealer are not the same thing)
End of day it shows the level of arrogance the manufacturers have with their dealers that sell to consumer.
Sales are great and they know if a dealer complains they can just tell them to shut up or you can leave and we will replace you in 30 seconds.
Manufacturers in this position where they know what they make will sell no matter what tend to treat their sales channel like shit... srry to say.
Quoted from snaroff:And what would that be, exactly? I'm curious.
This premise that these games were stolen is ludicrous. The last game I purchased from JD/ASOA (JP2 Premium) on 12/3/19 was sent directly from Stern!
As I said.... if I was an authorized dealer I would be very curious to ask how this is allowed to happen? (Of course doing that will probably get them on the shit list so they wont.)
You can buy games direct at dealer cost or less if you arent authorized to??
Thats good news... I will call them and buy a few for myself so i can flip them.
Maybe everyone on pinside should call and ask how exactly they can buy games super cheap direct since it seems so easy to do.
Quoted from twenty84:I don't see why people seem obsessed with the idea that he "can buy these games super cheap direct". If he could do that why would he bother with selling games that he never delivered or selling an LE and delivering a different game type non-sense? There are a ton of people on this site who put a deposit with a distributor then sell the game to someone else when it is delivered or take delivery and sell it NIB or trade a NIB game for another game. This doesn't mean that the original authorized distributor has done anything nefarious.
If you dont get why it matters I am not about to explain it to you.
Quoted from twenty84:If it actually happened it would matter.
As of now, there is zero evidence that authorized distributers were in on this scam.
oh?
Suffice it to say there are plenty of people who know whats up but wont get into specifics.
Everyone is just looking out for themselves as people do.
Same way these sort of things go on forever to begin with....
Quoted from Aniraf:I have all three Stern LEs I bought from JD before the fourth purchase that went bad. What can I do with the serial numbers to determine the distributor? All three games shipped directly from Stern. All three games have been registered with Stern. All three games have been supported by Stern. I have always listed ASOA as my distributor even when I started doing the operator and tournament stuff.
What can you do? well nothing really.
Only really two scenarios here... Im going with option B but draw your own conclusions.
A. they didnt know it was going on and shut it down when they found out hence the stop of flow of games
B.For quite a while they were allowing an unauthorized person to buy through authorized channels and flip games as a broker.
Its was all fine when money is flowing but cash issues arose and people and likely suppliers started getting stiffed (hence to stop of flow of games).
Quoted from Mr68:The manufacture and distributor association is only a side curiosity for me now.
If you were one of the many legit dealers following the rules who got screwed out of 2 years of sales you would probably feel differently...
everyone else was just a sucker for a good salesman
Quoted from crwjumper:Because operators aren’t distributors.
operators buy from distributors... hey wait. lol
Quoted from 27dnast:I posted something earlier, then deleted it... because what I had to say really doesn’t effect your situation (in terms of dealing with this guy). But, I don’t think you can assume that dealers are mistakenly selling to someone.
I was asked to delete something earlier for the same reason (and I did)...
For those of you who think no one has any "evidence" or direct knowledge on this, hate to break it to you, but you are wrong.
I dont know what benefit there is to outing anyone because end of day the manufacturer doesnt seem to give a shit (maybe they do now?).
This is the usual the little guys get shit on and get swatted away if they complain kind of story...
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Had a few questions this am.
1) What is the importance of outing Jonathan’s source for games?
Im not looking to out anyone.
How would you feel if you were selling a product "following the rules" and then all of the sudden someone shows up (getting the same product under the table) and blows your prices out of the water and kills your market?
Quoted from snaroff:That's a totally valid point, but I'm sure the distributors know who is on the play field and what the rules are (and can call foul). I'm not a distributor and have never seen the legal agreements they sign with Stern, JJP, Spooky, etc. JD has been on the scene for awhile now and I'm certain the distributors know who he is (at least the Florida distributors know...).
problem there is the manufacturer doesnt give a shit?
A small dealer is in the position of being a complainer and knows if they rock the boat they can be replaced.
Do you think a manufacturer is going to risk a relationship with some of their biggest buyers because some small fish are unhappy? please.
This happens in tons of areas of biz... the small guys always get tossed under the bus.
Quoted from flynnibus:You still have this built in assumption that the big guys are getting huge discounts compared to the little guys. It's not that way.
Details..... it obviously worked since it kept happening over and over.
Maybe its scratch and dents sold cheaper? insurance write offs? horse trading this for that? do i care?
Could just be volume... if someone is willing to make $200 per but sells 100 machines its not like it doesnt add up especially if you can pull this off using other peoples money.
Quoted from snaroff:You obviously know much more about business than I do, so I defer to you, Morty.
more than Id like to sorry to say.
Quoted from unlockpinball:The Pin community requires some additional key facts:
Not really...
All you need to know is below.
dont be a cheap fuck and support authorized dealers. Even if it costs a little more.
they are all listed on the manufacturers websites
If you cheap out to save a buck buying NIB from some random dude you get what you get.
Quoted from unlockpinball:As you point out: what is being cheap? Without the wholesale price how is the buyer to know the transaction is "off".
Dude was selling NIB cheaper than any authorized dealer was willing or able to... why do you think people bought from him?
Quoted from snaroff:It wasn't all about price, Mr. KnowItAll.
It's also about availability. When JD got my JP2 for me (11/19), Premiums were in extremely short supply. After calling around, JD was the only one that committed to deliver one in a timely fashion (which he did). In fact, JP2's are still in short supply...many distributors have no supply.
For me, availability often takes precedence over price for the hot titles.
In your case sure.. for most people it was let me buy from the guy offering the crazy discount.
You act like you are special because you dealt with him... tons of people did.
In my case he offered me a NIB game cheaper than what a used one would go for.. of course he couldn't deliver and tried to bait and switch me (much like yourself if I remember)
Quoted from snaroff:Act like I was special? Don't know where you get that from. You're an odd dude, dood.
I think its odd that you think its OK to deal with a non authorized dealer because you want something hard to find,, like thats any better than being cheap. 
Anyways enough info is out there now at least... Mr know it all isnt about to name names although I would be surprised if someone else doesnt.
Hopefully people will protect themselves from future scumbags and buy from only authorized dealers listed on the websites.
Ill let you all argue amongst yourself from here on out. have fun.
Quoted from snaroff:Well, I was moderated, which is absurd. Whatever...
My lesson learned? As soon as I recouped my money, I should have stopped contributing my experience & thoughts on this matter. Some folks just want to dramatize the situation and blame the victims. How is blaming the victims not "moderated"?
Victims? thats a bit much...
People made the choice to buy from this source knowing they were not authorized to sell to them. Over and over again.
They took that risk (even prepaying) for whatever reason... cheaper game, unavailable game on and on.
Taking a risk and getting burned doesnt make you a victim.
Victims in this case are the people playing by the rules in an unfair market situation.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:Unless you have been involved, contacted, directly spoke to, or made a purchase yourself, your suppositions
are placed in front of those with actual experience over several years.
I know people dont read everything on here but yes I have had personal experience and know many others that have and their stories as well.
So if the assumption is I am just talking out of my ass we can drop that.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:Did you not receive a game after sending money?
What was your personal experience?
I did read the threads, but I dont remember everyones personal involvement.
Nope never bought a game because he tried to bait and switch me....
And unlike others I actually called manufacturer and asked if he was authorized to sell and was told no so I walked.
This is like two years ago so maybe no one else made any calls or bothered to check the website or cared?
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:Fair enough.
Someone losing money due to fraud? No one underselling? I just dont know......No one is a victim?
It sucks people had issues...
however the info has also been out there for two years and people kept buying because they were getting deals or things they wanted.
Thats where I have issue with the victim mentality.
Otherwise yah I am just trying to stick up for the little guy a bit since they cant say shit or do anything here...
As I said earlier if you are selling something legit and someone comes in and games the system and takes your business its not a good feeling... its worse when you are told to basically shut up about it by those who are supposed to look out for your interests.
Quoted from paynemic:Dude you’re wrong. I bought a used game from him and got the bait and switch. I wasn’t trying to cheap out and screw the real distros or something. Just give up. In this (and likely other cases), you’re just wrong.
lol... guess I hit a nerve with the cheap comment.
I am talking about NIB games specifically.... dude wants to sell used games have at it.
The guy got a foothold in the marketplace by coming in and offering much lower prices than any authorized dealer could or would on NIB.
He even advertised he had the best prices, free shipping, best warranty etc etc
Even after the info came out that he wasnt authorized to sell NIB games people kept buying from him... why? because they saved money. period.
Quoted from snaroff:"I'm sorry, but your opinion means very little to me.", - Rick
Im sorry that I dont much care.
You guys want to side with the guy that ripped you off on stuff go ahead.
Quoted from jamesmc:I liked it better when we were bashing Jonathan and not each other.
me too... Im trying but every time I do people get offended.
Its 2021 so I get it no one can admit they made a mistake or a bad decision anymore...
Sorry i took you out of your safe space, I will stop.
Quoted from dhard:Or any other he's posted in lol
sure thing... Sorry, I am trying to stop this from ever happening again.
Just not just that interested in looking out for the immediate needs of those who bought from someone who they knew was gaming the system.
If he never defaulted anyone it would still be going on and the "victimized" would still be buying from him and not caring where the games come from.
Way to support your authorized dealers... 
Quoted from snaroff:Authorized dealers sold JD/ASOA the machines in the first place...the NIB games I received were not stolen or noteworthy.
Go read my Profile reviews...flawless. JD/ASOA's Profile reviews were even better in the timeframe I did business with him!
I see you don't even have Profile reviews. No collection. Just joined Pinside less than 1 year ago. I'll quote Rick once again..."I'm sorry, but your opinion means very little to me."Hilarious! paynemic has your number...just read his post.
Correct... but missing a main point here. I have never said they were stolen but not noteworthy?
Authorized dealers who were not supposed to sell him machines sold him machines which he then used to undersell legit dealers.
Anyone who bought from him either
A. didnt bother to check that he was not an authorized dealer for what they were buying (pretty easy to do on the websites or by calling)
B. did not care that he was not an authorized dealer for what they were buying because they got something they wanted or a better price.
You bought from someone who was gaming the system and ultimately gamed you... and the info has been out there for two years.
I am truly sorry people had issues but to me it would have been pretty easy to avoid if you bought from an authorized dealer.
Quoted from snaroff:Trust me, I understand.
My point is it boils down to *authorized Stern dealers* taking sales from other *authorized Stern dealers*. The 4 NIB Stern purchases were totally legit. The relationship between JD/ASOA and the *authorized Stern dealers* is none of my business. I've supported a lot of *authorized Stern dealers* over the years and JD/ASOA was delivering for me. Unfortunately, my Rick and Morty transaction was a train wreck...fully chronicled here, for those who think I'm in anyway defending/excusing JD/ASOA (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/beware-of-jonathan-demare-asoa#post-6132804).
This is my point.
You think its " totally legit" that some big distribs and dealers were violating their agreements and selling someone games out side their agreements so they could manipulate the market
I do not... I dont think in any business its OK for the big guys to do whatever they want and violate their agreements at the expense of everyone else in the system.
Even the manufacturers had to disagree at some point because they stopped it from happening.
Quoted from snaroff:It's not my job to police who distributors sell to. I don't have access to their legal agreements (with Stern) and have no inside information on how the pinball distribution channels work. None. If the distributors weren't honoring their legal agreement, Stern is in the best position to slap them upside the head. Not my job!
I'm glad you are such an empathetic person and want to help pinball distributors cleanup their acts and help people like me avoid bad transactions. Don't know what you do for a living...maybe you should go work for Ralph Nader (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader).
I dont think its your job either. I know people dont care where they buy games from as long as they get what they want.
In this case your issues proved why people should be buying only from authorized dealers.
Buy from someone gaming the system and they may game you also.
Quoted from snaroff:I understand you have 20/20 hindsight, and admire your tenacity, but the sum of all your "help" doesn't add up to much.
I am just saying things small dealers would like to and cant because they will be told to shut up as they were for two years.
Hopefully that has changed a bit now or people know to at least check out where they are buying from.
I am again sorry you had issues.
If I was this guys biggest creditor I would be civil to him also.. be curious how that civil tone changes if he ever gets paid back.
There are few different things going on in this thread
1. you have the people he owes money to "being nice" in hopes they will get re-paid
2. people who are his friends/associates saying he is wonderful despite the obvious facts.
3. everybody else who knows anyone who ever deals with him again is a moron.
You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider Elvishasleft.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/part-2-beware-of-jonathan-demare-asoa-?tu=Elvishasleft and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
