Iceman, being incompetent and business is not necessarily fraud. That's harder to prove as in JPop's case.. There is a long list of people who have been defrauded by Demare and can prove it.
Since you claim to be a lawyer, then you should know, when faced with prison, most people crack and will do anything to stay out of jail. People with no money have a habit of finding money when prison looms.
Quoted from iceman44:If they are judgment proof fraud doesn’t help anybody receive a dime! Does that penetrate yet?
And then you have to actually prove fraud. How many thousands of dollars in legal fees are you willing to pony up for us.
As an attorney, I know it’s shocking to many, but I have a lot of experience of dealing with small business owners over the past 27 years.
Sometimes good people get into a bind and do regrettable things. Sometimes bad people get away with doing terrible things because there is simply no recourse against them.
For the man to survive and thrive benefits everybody despite the fact that some here relish a good lynching without all the FACTS
Now, as an attorney, and once again, when the attorney’s get involved in this sort of matter we ALL lose.
I believe I gave that same advice here years ago with Jpop?
Was Jpop committing fraud in a Ponzi kind of way? Did anyone ever prove it or recover damages?
How much money was spent on legal fees? If it makes you feel better to extract a pound of flesh in the moment of rage I promise you it doesn’t feel so great years later and thousands of dollars of legal fees later.
For him to survive and thrive benifets u as his largest creditor.... not everyone else
Quoted from Elvishasleft:Well this is likely correct... someone in my biz got sued for a ridiculous sum of money and lost (rightly so).
They basically said, well that sucks, shrugged and closed the company and started a new one.
Nobody can collect because he had it set up so he could skate.
This shit does happen.
YEP been sayin this. Get your money and get out!
Quoted from Elvishasleft:Well this is likely correct... someone in my biz got sued for a ridiculous sum of money and lost (rightly so).
They basically said, well that sucks, shrugged and closed the company and started a new one.
Nobody can collect because he had it set up so he could skate.
This shit does happen.
This shit does happen. ALL THE TIME! Lol
Unless you are the IRS or the state collecting alimony or child support, payroll taxes etc. Creditors aren’t getting anything out of bankruptcy. Period
IRAs, 401ks, annuities, cash value life insurance etc are protected from creditors
And, Florida is a favorable “charging order” state. Like Texas, it’s extremely difficult to pierce the LLC veil
All you can get is what’s called a “charging order” against the owners internet. ZERO collection attorneys in Texas and Florida would ever even bother!!!
I have some great collection attorneys to deploy in my area. I wouldn’t want them coming after me. BUT, if I had nothing it would be a waste of time and money
Quoted from Brettv:For him to survive and thrive benifets u as his largest creditor.... not everyone else
Who is everyone else? The people who have already received payments? His wife and children?
For the sake of those people. Absolutely I hope he’s successful and not a failure like many of you root for
Like I said, I’ll patiently await what I’ll get and I’m happy others are receiving reimbursement now
If I never get a dime, then so be it. I’m not losing any sleep over it
That said, I expect to be made whole.
Ice, you keep repeating the same stuff over and over. You don't have to 'pierce the corporate veil' when collecting from someone who has committed fraud. You keep talking about this as if it's a civil law suit. It is not. This is a criminal matter. Banruptcy, collection lawyers don't matter. An agent showing up at his door is all that really matters.
Quoted from iceman44:This shit does happen. ALL THE TIME! Lol
Yes it does as much as I dislike agreeing with you.
In another case someone I know got off because they had their dog signed on as an owner. Not kidding...
the dog was called as a witness by the judge.
the lawyer said... um he's not here because he's a dog.
Judge asks the other lawyer do you know you sued a dog? he says..... no.
Case dismissed.
and this is in NYC... and not a joke.
Quoted from jcg9998:Iceman, being incompetent and business is not necessarily fraud. That's harder to prove as in JPop's case.. There is a long list of people who have been defrauded by Demare and can prove it.
Since you claim to be a lawyer, then you should know, when faced with prison, most people crack and will do anything to stay out of jail. People with no money have a habit of finding money when prison looms.
Woah woah now, you do NOT have the facts my friend
Harder to prove in Jpops case? Are you kidding me?
Breach of contract, promissory estoppel? Sure, but fraud with an intent to deceive at the same time he’s paying people back
Yeah I don’t think so. Are you not listening? I am the biggest creditor whom you claim he’s defrauded and yet I accepted his repayment agreement and decided NOT to pursue other options.
Why is that do you wonder?
And there is ZERO chance he’s going to jail and more than Jpop ever was!
Let me further clarify this point, the DOJ won’t take any matter seriously unless you do.
It might end up with a trifecta of all of the above down the road but the reality is just that
Quoted from jcg9998:Ice, you keep repeating the same stuff over and over. You don't have to 'pierce the corporate veil' when collecting from someone who has committed fraud. You keep talking about this as if it's a civil law suit. It is not. This is a criminal matter. Banruptcy, collection lawyers don't matter. An agent showing up at his door is all that really matters.
Flat out wrong. You keep repeating the same poor argument again and again
Creditors haven’t even filed suit against the guy and you expect the DOJ to show up on his doorstep for some nominal white collar so called crime that can’t be proven?
Look I’m sorry you don’t get it and can’t comprehend why everyone has chosen this path with Jonathan
I'll explain this one more time and I'm not going to do it again... in case you are wondering... I am not a lawyer but I lived with a business law professor for 40 years so I have some idea of what I'm talking about...
Example:
If you walk into a Wal-Mart and an employee punches you in the face. You can sue Wal-Mart in civil court and you can press criminal charges against the employee and then file civil charges against that employee as well.
Jonathan Demare committed fraud. It doesn't matter if he runs a corporation. You can sue his corporation if you want to. If he is charged criminally and he is found guilty then you can sue him personally as well. He can plea his way out of prison time if he settles with the people he defrauded or he can simply pay everyone and it will be up to the DOJ if they want to continue to pursue criminal charges against him.
I stand by what I say. The best way to get money out of his is to go after him criminally. Everyone is free to do as they will.
BTW, I won't claim to know about JPop's case but obviously there was some sort of settlement because he didn't go to jail.
Quoted from iceman44:Who is everyone else? The people who have already received payments? His wife and children?
For the sake of those people. Absolutely I hope he’s successful and not a failure like many of you root for
Like I said, I’ll patiently await what I’ll get and I’m happy others are receiving reimbursement now
If I never get a dime, then so be it. I’m not losing any sleep over it
That said, I expect to be made whole.
Everyone one else is the rest of the pinball community he could still have been doing this too while you guys weighed your options and didn't make it public.
Quoted from jcg9998:I'll explain this one more time and I'm not going to do it again... in case you are wondering... I am not a lawyer but I lived with a business law professor for 40 years so I have some idea of what I'm talking about...
Example:
If you walk into a Wal-Mart and an employee punches you in the face. You can sue Wal-Mart in civil court and you can press criminal charges against the employee and then file civil charges against that employee as well.
Jonathan Demare committed fraud. It doesn't matter if he runs a corporation. You can sue his corporation if you want to. If he is charged criminally and he is found guilty then you can sue him personally as well. He can plea his way out of prison time if he settles with the people he defrauded or he can simply pay everyone and it will be up to the DOJ if they want to continue to pursue criminal charges against him.
I stand by what I say. The best way to get money out of his is to go after him criminally. Everyone is free to do as they will.
BTW, I won't claim to know about JPop's case but obviously there was some sort of settlement because he didn't go to jail.
Wrong again! Listen up one more time closely.
Yes. I can sue him in a civil suit
Yes. I can seek to have criminal charges brought against him
Yes. I understand ALL of the remedies I have to deploy. And maintain all of those
IF you have NOTHING to get. As in ZERO then a civil suit or criminal case doesn’t matter. I’m not interested in a feel good ass kicking right now just for the sake of it
You have to understand that you can guarantee you will get NOTHING by putting someone in jail and out of business
Does that finally make sense?
Quoted from Brettv:Everyone else would be the pinball community and him continuing his act, i don't comment m7ch but
Everyone one else is the rest of the pinball community he could still have been doing this too while you guys weighed your options and didn't make it public.
#1. As I’ve stated before and will do so again. He is DONE with the pinball community and can’t harm any of you anymore. And he hasn’t participated over the past year and is in the process of making all whole.
But I get your point.
#2. Maybe I’m jaded over so many of the scumbags I’ve seen in my career that simply get away with bad things WITHOUT REMORSE and that is just not the case her given everything that was considered
#3. I’m one of the creditors who has the standing to bring a cause of action against him, along with others here, not any of the rest of you
Quoted from EricHadley:Si es demasiado bueno para ser verdad probablemente sea
This thread is a good reminder for me i do like a deal
I have one ex client. Guy was an absolute piece of work on the extreme end of the spectrum. Most of my clients are great. It’s them usually getting screwed by a builder or bad business partner
Had 5 or 6 cases going against his LLCs. Oil & gas oil field services. Just didn’t care and had no shame.
Also had a few criminal cases against him for assault, child support, etc etc.
He took a few hits from one collection attorney personally because the LLC failed to pay employees overtime and a very good collection attorney got a piece of him
At the end of the day, he did have money, a lot of it, and kept most all of it. Even got away with stiffing his civil defense attorney for about $100k. My friend
Not that easy fellas. Just saying. And I’ve got all kinds of great stories MUCH better than this one I promise you 
Best advice, do your due diligence and don’t get caught up in bad deals. However, sometimes life just throws you a curveball and you deal with it and learn from it
Quoted from jamesmc:A few years later the daughter was arrested for fraud. She is known as the SoCal Boob Bandit. She used a stolen cc to get a new boob job. She didn't realize that her old ones had serial numbers that she had left behind. You can't make this shit up. Like mother like daughter. She appeared in a few reality shows after that. I'm confident we havn't heard/seen the last of her.
That is and has been one of the biggest problems for years now, people getting famous/rewarded for being bad people.
Quoted from Brettv:Deleted post
Lol. Could seriously write a book about this one but no one would believe it
The only real justice anyone gets in life is by avoiding the justice system altogether. That I can promise you.
That same defense attorney and his firm made a million dollars in legal fees over a 2 and a 1/2 year period before that on a Will
Contest case
Husband died with kids from a prior marriage. They were married 30 years with kids of their own
I got the widow as a client after the fact. Poorly written will and husband had early onset dementia. $20 million dollar estate
First offer was $5 million to the defense to settle. Fought it out for 30 months and settled for......yep, $5 million two days before trial. My guys made $1 mill in fees and they did a great job
So many stories, so many cases and so many problems avoided, which is my job to keep people out of trouble and protect their assets.
What’s the common denominator? The lawyers always win. And even when you win, you lose. You lose time, emotion, money etc
This deal? There is a potential for a positive outcome without have to involve the lawyers. Yeah that’s a really good thing!
Quoted from iceman44:IF you have NOTHING to get. As in ZERO then a civil suit or criminal case doesn’t matter. I’m not interested in a feel good ass kicking right now just for the sake of it.
you cant squeeze blood out of a turnip.
which is why they grow oranges in florida instead.
orange squeezer.gifQuoted from greenhornet:you cant squeeze blood out of a turnip.
which is why they grow oranges in florida instead.[quoted image]
Lol. Yeah it’s all good
As frustrating as it might be for people that been down this road for the past year I know that a lot people’s hearts are in the right place and just want to help out the situation and I appreciate that
Quoted from iceman44:Flat out wrong. You keep repeating the same poor argument again and again
Creditors haven’t even filed suit against the guy and you expect the DOJ to show up on his doorstep for some nominal white collar so called crime that can’t be proven?
Look I’m sorry you don’t get it and can’t comprehend why everyone has chosen this path with Jonathan
Quoted from iceman44:I have one ex client. Guy was an absolute piece of work on the extreme end of the spectrum. Most of my clients are great. It’s them usually getting screwed by a builder or bad business partner
Had 5 or 6 cases going against his LLCs. Oil & gas oil field services. Just didn’t care and had no shame.
Also had a few criminal cases against him for assault, child support, etc etc.
He took a few hits from one collection attorney personally because the LLC failed to pay employees overtime and a very good collection attorney got a piece of him
At the end of the day, he did have money, a lot of it, and kept most all of it. Even got away with stiffing his civil defense attorney for about $100k. My friend
Not that easy fellas. Just saying. And I’ve got all kinds of great stories MUCH better than this one I promise you
Best advice, do your due diligence and don’t get caught up in bad deals. However, sometimes life just throws you a curveball and you deal with it and learn from it
So based on your previous statements it’s sounds like you are involved here? If I were everyone here I would not take your word for anything. Sounds like a lot of cheerleading you are doing in opposition to getting the DOJ involved. When the DOJ takes over the case, there is no civil attorneys involved. The AG takes over, goes to a grand jury with the facts and victims/witnesses of the case, and an indictment is issued. This is the State of Florida doing this, not a civil attorney. Strange though you are really energetic on trying to convince people not to do this. I thought you bailed out of this conversation? For the rest of everyone else, not sure what you are waiting for. And taking advice from anybody but the authorities seems really bizarre at this point. If this were 1 or 2 cases, I’d say well try and get him to pay. I think we’re in double digits here and 6-7 figures in stolen money (that we know of). Contact the DOJ and let them shake the tree. And if this guy has zero money, we’ll don’t you at least want to see him do time?
I think us pinball addicts are as gullible as they come when it comes to acquiring our next hit of our drug of choice... I mean what meth head is going to pay top dollar for bottom shelf meth? The same guys like us who will take a Stern Pro for an LE price and feel good about it afterwards. I mean at least you got something for your money, and you aren’t loosing your teeth.
Quoted from robin:I’m all for calling out scammers and warning fellow Pinsiders about them. Ergo, I have no intention of locking this thread - on one condition: no posting of personal info, home address, street view screenshots etc.
Under no circumstance do I want Pinside to be a part in inciting violence or (death)threats against anyone. Not even scammers. Thanks for your understanding.
Violent Pinside, something we all have to be conscious of. We need to remember what can happen to scammers....
1. Pictures of their backs taken at shows/auctions, and then posted on Pinside.
2. New start up companies hiring them to attempt to remake their last failed venture.
3. Nothing
Quoted from thechakapakuni:Strange though you are really energetic on trying to convince people not to do this
Simply because he's advocating the strategy of "Take money while the guy is voluntarily giving it... because it's so difficult to collect"
In his usual fashion he buries the thought in all kinds of other haymakers... but that's the simple gist.
Criminal prosecution doesn't require the civil attorneys... but it also doesn't necessarily get you paid. Plus, you have to count on the state/county to even decide to prosecute... which is even after you convince someone to investigate.
And if everything falls to your favor... and they even try him... and after all that.. if he doesn't plea out.. Where's the money lewbowski???
That's why he's saying "dont rock the boat, and keep taking money while its coming voluntarily". Because getting money INvoluntarily is so miserable and generally very ineffective.
Quoted from thechakapakuni:So based on your previous statements it’s sounds like you are involved here? If I were everyone here I would not take your word for anything. Sounds like a lot of cheerleading you are doing in opposition to getting the DOJ involved. When the DOJ takes over the case, there is no civil attorneys involved. The AG takes over, goes to a grand jury with the facts and victims/witnesses of the case, and an indictment is issued. This is the State of Florida doing this, not a civil attorney. Strange though you are really energetic on trying to convince people not to do this. I thought you bailed out of this conversation? For the rest of everyone else, not sure what you are waiting for. And taking advice from anybody but the authorities seems really bizarre at this point. If this were 1 or 2 cases, I’d say well try and get him to pay. I think we’re in double digits here and 6-7 figures in stolen money (that we know of). Contact the DOJ and let them shake the tree. And if this guy has zero money, we’ll don’t you at least want to see him do time?
I completely agree. A real and reputable attorney wouldn't be here on Pinside losing his cool and trying to convince a bunch of people he doesn't even know. Weird...
Quoted from rx3:I completely agree. A real and reputable attorney wouldn't be here on Pinside losing his cool and trying to convince a bunch of people he doesn't even know. Weird...
This is a super trollish statement. You’re honestly saying that Pinside couldn’t include “a real reputable attorney” that got scammed in this way?
I tend to think a high percentage of people on pinside are possibly “real reputable attorneys” because these games cost a ton of money!
Quoted from Aniraf:This is a super trollish statement. You’re honestly saying that Pinside couldn’t include “a real reputable attorney” that got scammed in this way?
I tend to think a high percentage of people on pinside are possibly “real reputable attorneys” because these games cost a ton of money!
I never said it "couldn't include". I'm saying, if you're a professional, you don't jump on internet forums, identify your profession and start providing advice to a bunch of people you don't even know. I'm sure there are politicians, cops, doctors, etc...on Pinside, but you rarely see them identify their profession and start giving advice. That's just weird and unprofessional.
Quoted from Aniraf:This is a super trollish statement. You’re honestly saying that Pinside couldn’t include “a real reputable attorney” that got scammed in this way?
I tend to think a high percentage of people on pinside are possibly “real reputable attorneys” because these games cost a ton of money!
Then hire Iceman since he’s reputable and be on your way to solving your issue. Sounds like he’s buddy’s with your scam artist Jonathan, so who knows maybe he’ll include a free pinball machine. I have to say though, this is the most bizarre thread of Stockholm Syndrome if I’ve ever seen it. So first your a victim and now it’s hands across America for Jonathan? Maybe you guys should start promoting ASOA & Jonathan now as a great business and nominate ASOA for a Twipy?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Amusement Scam of America would be the only pinball vendor who didn't profit during the Pandemic. Even if part of his business was selling to ops, there's MORE than enough slack to be made up by the enthusiastic herd of new pinball buyers entering the market daily.
Can someone name another pinball "distributor" who has even hinted at trouble in the past year, much less stopped delivering games that were paid for or pulling bait and switches like this? Pretty sure they are all taking nightly baths in cash and Dom Pergnion 1952, yet somehow this guy is destroyed by a pandemic that has all the other distributors printing money.
This bad excuse stinks worse than a Florida swamp and everybody knows it - just like all the other excuses people have written about.
Bro our swmaps smell amazing, they are full of all kinds of vegetation and natural growth, people literally get married in the everglades, let's stop talking trash about swamps huh? How offensive man.
Quoted from iceman44:The only real justice anyone gets in life is by avoiding the justice system altogether. That I can promise you.
Amen, Iceman.
Same for the healthcare system. Eat clean, exercise, don't smoke/drink, and avoid stress. Oh yeah...and play pinball
Those are some keys for being healthy. The healthcare system is most often clueless about the root cause of illness and only wants to sell you drugs, tests, and surgeries. They are in the sick care business. The more sickness, the more they profit.
Quoted from 0geist0:I need some popcorn
Is someone preventing you from finding some? Publix should be open, Fred.
Quoted from snaroff:Is someone preventing you from finding some? Publix should be open, Fred.
pasted_image (resized).pngI’ve owed agencies and worked in the debt collection field for years and a good percentage of our debt comes from judgements that couldn’t be collected thru the legal system. Often a judgment isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. So a civil lawsuit might just end up costing money in attorneys fees. But at least a criminal case makes him pay for his crime with possible time in jail and a tarnished reputation.
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:Good morning everyone
Fresh coffee is on the stove
Quoted from snaroff:don't smoke/drink
that-season-im-out-meme-1024x639 (resized).jpgQuoted from iceman44:Lol. Could seriously write a book about this one but no one would believe it
How about a cliff notes version?
And I thought I was going to be board after the Superbowl ended............Pinside......the gift that keeps on giving all year round 
Quoted from flynnibus:Attorneys don't give a rat's ass about anyone else - they are advising you on what makes most sense to YOU (and them).
That's why their advice doesn't jive with community interest.
Quoted from iceman44:As an attorney, I know it’s shocking to many, but I have a lot of experience of dealing with small business owners over the past 27 years.
Quoted from iceman44:I'm his biggest CREDITOR. Is it reasonable to believe, i know it's hard for some people, that i could possibly have considered ALL of my options over the past year?
I’m new here and fairly new to pinball ownership (about 2 years). I would have (and could still) easily have gotten scammed. I appreciate this thread (even with all the back and forth) as it probably has saved me. My question...how do I completely avoid getting scammed? I am hearing that there is going to be a rerun of Iron Maiden (a game I really want) and have found at least one distributor taking non refundable deposits for delivery in May. After reading this thread I am thinking “bad idea”. But maybe it’s not...and it’s just how this industry works...what do I need to do to ensure this distributor is legit and not going to run away with my money?
OK I get what Iceman and especially Aniraf are saying. What I really want to know at this point is how Jonathan was getting these games and was able to sell them so cheap. I mean, most people who are well established in the hobby know that deals like that are just non-existent so obviously they knew something shady was going on. On top of that, Jonathan did seem to have some sort of insider information. How?? This goes deeper than ASOA. This is the craziest part to me.
I'm also having flashbacks to when predator started going south, and a small group of insiders figured out Kevin didn't actually have the license so they all got their money back before it got made public. I'm glad this info is out now and leading to some good things, but I've almost got more questions now than at the beginning!
Quoted from ucsbaviator:I’m new here and fairly new to pinball ownership (about 2 years). I would have (and could still) easily have gotten scammed. I appreciate this thread (even with all the back and forth) as it probably has saved me. My question...how do I completely avoid getting scammed? I am hearing that there is going to be a rerun of Iron Maiden (a game I really want) and have found at least one distributor taking non refundable deposits for delivery in May. After reading this thread I am thinking “bad idea”. But maybe it’s not...and it’s just how this industry works...what do I need to do to ensure this distributor is legit and not going to run away with my money?
Find a better distributor, you shouldn't need to put down a non refundable deposit for an Iron Maiden. Stern's site lists all their authorized distributors: https://sternpinball.com/buy-a-game/
My personal favorites are Game Exchange and Cointaker. Plenty of other good ones out there too though.
Quoted from ucsbaviator:how do I completely avoid getting scammed?
Start by reading this: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-not-get-ripped-off-in-pinball-vids-guide
TL;DR
If it sounds too good to be true, it is
Only accept cash for buying and selling with other people
Only buy a machine you have seen in person
Only buy NIB from official distributors. These are listed online by Stern, JJP, Spooky. You should be able to pay with a CC here, but don't expect any discounts or extras if you do.
As you get more involved in the hobby and establish a good network and a better BS meter, you can relax some of these.
Welcome and Good luck.
By the way this thread is an extreme example of things going wrong.
Quoted from EricHadley:Find a better distributor, you shouldn't need to put down a non refundable deposit for an Iron Maiden. Stern's site lists all their authorized distributors: https://sternpinball.com/buy-a-game/
My personal favorites are Game Exchange and Cointaker. Plenty of other good ones out there too though.
Thanks! So game exchange is taking deposits on Iron Maiden. Would this be legit since they are a reputable dealer?
Quoted from ucsbaviator:Thanks! So game exchange is taking deposits on Iron Maiden. Would this be legit since they are a reputable dealer?
Yes. JJ is awesome.
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