(Topic ID: 37934)

Paragon "shutting down" or "tilting" during play with Tilt disabled.

By donny

11 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 35 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by Toads
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 11 years ago

Hey everyone. Got my first machine last month, learned alot here so far! Done some clean up and adjusting so far. Have a couple small issues but this ones driving me nuts! During high action play, after dropping the 4th drop target up the left side, within a few seconds the machine "tilts". Ive removed the tilt hanger, so its not actually tilting. I also did a test with the glass out. With the 4th target down and a 5th trip up the lane the ball drops into a kickout hole. When it kicks out and hits anything, it "tilts" and everything stops and points arent counted. A couple of times during high score/long ball play, the machine just "starts over" like you just hit the start button. All points are lost weather its you first ball or last. Driving me CRAZY! Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

#2 11 years ago

Switch matrix problems. Probably due to diode isolation on the playfield.

Use your manual's switch matrix diagram to look for a pattern on rows / columns. Need to inspect all switches for being properly wired and no broken diodes, shorts, or stuck switches.

The coin door / tilts may go through a different connector and even drwan seperately but the switch matrix is all one thing.

#3 11 years ago

Check the coin switches and make sure one isn't stuck closed.
I had a Skateball act the same way and that was the problem.
Good Luck!

#4 11 years ago

You may also want to try clipping a leg off of the capacitor on the tilt switch. When those go bad you get random tilts like that and it may also affect other switches on its row/column. When a capacitor is bad, I usually suggest replacing it on pop bumpers/roll over switches to improve game play but I leave it off of tilt switches.
Hope this helps,
Art.

#6 11 years ago

Hey everyone, thanks for the ideas. In my rant, I should have mentioned Im a "noob", and learning these machines from reading and looking. The guy I got it from is a hobbyist/restorer, havent gotten a call back from him yet, its been over a week... Hoping to not have to rely on someone else to do my repairs. Ill probably do some checking on the weekend, post anything I find. Thanks again!!!

#7 11 years ago

Probably should mention as well, machine is set on "free play". No coins... I also tried my "test" of the left lane, drop targets by hand with the glass off, with the tilt hanger in place, same results...

#8 11 years ago
Quoted from MrArt2u:

You may also want to try clipping a leg off of the capacitor on the tilt switch.

This worked for my Paragon when I first picked it up.

1 year later
#9 9 years ago

Hey, guys. Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but thought relevant. I am still working on my Paragon and having this same issue. Voltages on all boards are good, switch test passes clean. I am attaching a switch matrix diagram and test I did. With glass off, I manually tripped the combo of 3 switches, targets, rollovers, bumper, etc... that have the same colored circles. The diamond of the same color is the "false indication" that resulted. Each 4 of the same color is a separate test.

Example: with last left drop target (D) down, I spun the spinner, and at the same time hit the top right bumper and it tilted, which is the yellow circles and diamond test.

Based on this, problem has to be in the spinner circuit, right ? All false events involve spinner as a common switch involved. Switch is good, gapped right, and I even replaced the diode, but same results. What and how should I check next ? Any help or insight appreciated !

#10 9 years ago

Also, if anyone has a picture of the spinner switch wiring/diode under the playfield on their Paragon, and can post it, I'd like to verify mine is correct. Based on the schematic, it appears to be right, but want to make sure. thanks again for any assistance with this one.

#11 9 years ago

Nice job of identifying the pattern. I would suspect the spinner diode is either in backwards or one of the legs on the diode is touching ground. Also possible, but less likely, the diode could be shorted.

#12 9 years ago

Thanks, Terry... I don't see that either of the legs are touching ground, but when I replaced the diode with a brand new diode, I put it back in the way it was before. Should the "banded side" leg of the diode be on the spinner switch tab with no wires attached ? Or the "non-banded" side ? That's why I was wondering if someone could check theirs or post a pic of it so I could compare.

#13 9 years ago
Quoted from Slimbo:

Should the "banded side" leg of the diode be on the spinner switch tab with no wires attached ? Or the "non-banded" side ?

Not sure on that era of game. With the switch open the non-banded side should have continuity with the non-banded side of the other diodes in that row. If the opposite is true then it's reversed.

Does it work as you currently have it installed?

#14 9 years ago

Yes, it does work as installed. And the non-banded side does have continuity with the other diodes' non-banded side in that column (ST 4 column in pic above). Found something else interesting: During a game (with the glass slid back), if I touch the top of the spinner bracket, and then touch the coin door or metal side rails that are grounded, the spinner scores points as if it's been spun.
Even more weird, with my Fluke tester in diode continuity mode, with one probe on the spinner bracket and one on the side rail, it will ring up credits. Does this still mean problem is in spinner switch, or could it be a grounding issue somewhere else ? I don't have another spinner switch to replace it to rule it out. Has anyone seen this type of weird issue ?

Thanks for patience and help with my newbie questions, still learning a lot here. I can see how this hobby can be both addiciting and frustrating !

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from Slimbo:

Does this still mean problem is in spinner switch, or could it be a grounding issue somewhere else ?

I think you've solved your initial problem by orienting the diode properly. This sounds like a new issue, although it could relate to the work that was done.

Sounds like the spinner bracket is shorted to the switch somehow. Check for continuity between each side of the switch and the bracket (game off).

#16 9 years ago

The actuator tab of the switch that has the wire loop to the spinner does have continuity to the bracket. Makes sense, because the spinner itself has wire on both sides going through the holes on each side of the bracket that holds it, so it has a path. Unless it is supposed to have insulation there, maybe this is not an issue. Back to square one. Dang, this is frustrating. Makes me feel like an idiot. Seems like a simple problem, but I'm stumped.

#17 9 years ago
Quoted from Slimbo:

Yes, it does work as installed.

So what problem do you still have?

#18 9 years ago

Same false indications that all involve the spinner noted above in the switch matrix diagram.

#19 9 years ago

Sorry if I wasnt clear... but the game plays OK, until you get far enough during a game and happen to have a combination of the drop targets being down, go through the spinner and hit the noted pop bumper or other event that cause the combo of the 3 switches to trigger the 4th "false event", like a tilt, game start, etc...

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from Slimbo:

The actuator tab of the switch that has the wire loop to the spinner does have continuity to the bracket. Makes sense, because the spinner itself has wire on both sides going through the holes on each side of the bracket that holds it, so it has a path. Unless it is supposed to have insulation there, maybe this is not an issue. Back to square one. Dang, this is frustrating. Makes me feel like an idiot. Seems like a simple problem, but I'm stumped.

There should not be continuity from either side of the switch to the actuator tab. If there is the switch is bad or a wire is shorted.

#21 9 years ago

Can you post a pic of your spinner switch? Get a good shot of the diode and also the switch stack with the bakelite spacers.

#22 9 years ago

Only the tab with GRN/WHT has continuity to the actuator, it is same stack. Banded end of diode on tab with no wires. Non-banded end of diode on YLW/RED tab which has continuity to other short switch tab, which is in same stack. No continuity between either wired tab with switch open. Seems correct ? Pic is difficult to get, but here is a try:

spinner-304.JPGspinner-304.JPG
#23 9 years ago

That pic in not right. The diode isn't going anywhere. The tab on the side doesn't go anywhere it's just a spot to use as a solder point.
Here's a pic of mine....

image.jpgimage.jpg
#24 9 years ago

The wires should be on the other side of the diode and the diode reversed. Right now the diode isn't even in the circuit, hence your problem.

#25 9 years ago

If I understand correctly, based on Toads pic, the non-banded side of my diode is correct (attched to yellow/red wires), but the banded side needs to be moved to the tab with the white/grn wires on the left side of my picture ?

#26 9 years ago

Nevermind, I see it now. The pairs of wires need to be switched between the 2 tabs, and the diode reversed to follow the yellow/red pair to the other tab. This was wired like a rollover switch with 3 blades.

#27 9 years ago

Toads, if it's not too much trouble, can you please post a side view of your switch, so I can see the tabs and wire orientation in the stack ?

Just to verify, your spinner switch has only 2 tabs, not 3... and in your pic, the bottom tab on the actuator with the wire loop from the spinner is the yellow/red pair ?

I swapped mine, and now the spinner won't score and it still tilts as before.

#28 9 years ago

Terry B, I just realized, was your last post about Toad's picture, or the one I posted ?

#29 9 years ago

Terry's post was about your pic. You have one pair of wires on each switch blade and one end of the diode hanging out in limbo. The signal flows from the yellow/red pair, through the closed switch and down the white/green pair, never going through the diode. Wire it like Toad's switch and you should be fine.

Note: Banded end is not soldered to white/green pair. It is soldered to the other switch blade all by itself.

#30 9 years ago

OK, so here is top view, I have removed the diode, and re-flowed the white/green pair on the actuator tab.

Where are you saying to connect the diode leads, exactly ? I can't tell what the banded end of Toad's diode is connected to from his pic. Pardon my ignorance, pleeze....

SwitchWires.JPGSwitchWires.JPG
#31 9 years ago

At work ATM mr Slimbo but will later if still needed.
On my switch, the two end tabs are the switch the side tab is not connected (electrically) to them.
How's this....

image-897.jpgimage-897.jpg
#32 9 years ago

Makes PERFECT sense. Man, how could I miss something that simple... this being the last switch on that yellow/red leg, I get why it is a 2-blade and why this is how it should be. THANKS, everyone, and sorry for my brain flatulence on this one. Will fix it and advise shortly.

#33 9 years ago

Correcting the spinner switch wiring has solved the problem. No more false tilts, restarts, out-holes, credits, target bank resets, saucer letters, feeder lane scores. It's playing great now.

Thanks to Terry, Do, and Toads... Toads, your pic and diagram really helped a LOT. If I was near you guys, I'd buy you a beer or 5. Salud !

#34 9 years ago
Quoted from Slimbo:

Correcting the spinner switch wiring has solved the problem. No more false tilts, restarts, out-holes, credits, target bank resets, saucer letters, feeder lane scores. It's playing great now.

Thanks to Terry, Do, and Toads... Toads, your pic and diagram really helped a LOT. If I was near you guys, I'd buy you a beer or 5. Salud !

Glad you got it working. Leaf switches can be a little confusing the first time you deal with them since the one tab isn't electrically connected to the switch, but just used as a junction point.

Nice artwork toads.

#35 9 years ago

Glad I could help

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