(Topic ID: 208958)

Paragon controlled lamps, Rectifier board/Siegecraft boards troubleshooting

By FatPanda

6 years ago


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  • 147 posts
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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by FatPanda
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There are 147 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 6 years ago

Recently acquired a Paragon with some controlled lamps not working. After going through and replacing all the sockets and bulbs that don't work, there are still a handful that don't work. They are not all on the same string (roving "G", first and third spinner insert, 6 bonus insert, etc.) I checked for continuity on the wiring (from socket to connector) on the easy to reach lamps, and that all checked out ok. I pulled the lamp board and checked continuity on the pins, chips, and did a close visual inspection, but couldnt find anything wrong. I have a DMM, but dont know anything about electricals, boards, etc. Can anyone use dumb terms to try to help me troubleshoot before i give up and get an Alltek board? TIA!

#2 6 years ago

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#3 6 years ago

The inside of your sockets are probably dirty, making a clear connection impossible.

#4 6 years ago

These are all new sockets that aren't lighting and continuity tests show that there aren't any breaks in the wires, so far as I can tell.

#5 6 years ago

Grab a piece of wire and strip a little bit of insulation off each end.

Lets bypass the lamp board and test the lamps/lamp sockets first.

Touch one side of the wire on a ground point in the machine - the metal side rail should be ok.
At a non-functioning lamp, touch the other side of that wire on the tip of the lamp socket that has the individual colored wire soldered to it (NOT the metal base side of the lamp socket).
Does that lamp come on?
If not, do the same at a working lamp to make sure the side of the wire you've connected ground to is ok.
Check all the non-functioning lamps doing this - if they all come on with the jumper wire then the problem is back at the lamp board. We can follow up from there.

#6 6 years ago

I'm not so sure I feel comfortable doing this. All non-working lamps at this point have new sockets. I've tried known working bulbs in each of the sockets to confirm it isn't working. I really think the problem is in the board, but not sure what to look for.

#7 6 years ago

You're going to have to do the exact same thing at the lamp board to try diagnosing if the SCRs (transistor looking things) that switch on the lamps are faulty - i.e. running a jumper wire to the SCRs to manually test if the SCRs are working.

#8 6 years ago

Ok. I think that's where the fault lies (at the SCRs) but I'll try the jumper wire at the lamps first. I'm sure it will yield the same result.

So when im jumping the non-working lamp, do I want to be in a game? During attract mode? Doesnt matter?

#9 6 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

So when im jumping the non-working lamp, do I want to be in a game? During attract mode? Doesnt matter?

.
Doesn't matter. Anytime when the machine is on.

Lamp_SocketBB.jpgLamp_SocketBB.jpg

#10 6 years ago

Yes, the lamps turn on using the jumper method.

#11 6 years ago

Ok.
Going upstream to the lamp board, connect one end of your jumper wire to TP2 (GND) on the lamp board.
Connect the other end of your wire to the bottom right leg of SCR:
Q4 should light the roaming Saucer "G" lamp
Q27 should light the 6K bonus lamp

Click the picture to zoom in:

Lamp_BoardB.jpgLamp_BoardB.jpg

#12 6 years ago

Great tutorial quench!

You got this quy!

#13 6 years ago

Q4 does not light
Q27 does light

#14 6 years ago

It's probably the SCRs. Almost every Bally I get in has 2-8 of these that have gone tits up. No idea why but it's very common.

It's either the sockets, the bulbs, the connectors, or the SCRs. You seem to have exhausted everything in the chain besides SCRs.

#15 6 years ago

Also found saucer "R" lamp and that worked for a bit, then stopped

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's probably the SCRs. Almost every Bally I get in has 2-8 of these that have gone tits up. No idea why but it's very common.
It's either the sockets, the bulbs, the connectors, or the SCRs. You seem to have exhausted everything in the chain besides SCRs.

I've looked up part numbers and have them added to my shopping list

#17 6 years ago

I can help you install if needed, after you figure out which ones are bad for sure

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I can help you install if needed, after you figure out which ones are bad for sure

Thanks for the offer! I might take you up on it so i don't burn any traces or generally screw shit up.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Q4 does not light

If by "roving G", you mean the upper saucer "G", then if grounding that bottom right pin of Q4 didn't light that lamp, you have a wiring connector issue to that lamp.

Ok, now this time you are going to manually switch on the Q27 SCR.
Take the jumper wire and connect one end to TP3 on the lamp board.
Connect the other end of the wire to the top leg of Q27. If the 6K bonus lamp does not light, Q27 is faulty.

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

If by "roving G", you mean the upper saucer "G", then if grounding that bottom right pin of Q4 didn't light that lamp, you have a wiring connector issue to that lamp.

Ok, now this time you are going to manually switch on the SCR.
Take the jumper wire and connect one end to TP3 on the lamp board.
Connect the other end of the wire to the top leg of Q27. If the 6K bonus lamp does not light, Q27 is faulty.

Yes roving "G" = saucer "G"

Q27 for 6k bonus does not light with TP3 and top leg.

So that means Q27 will have to be replaced, correct?

For saucer G, what are your thoughts for next steps?

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

So that means Q27 will have to be replaced, correct?

Yes it means Q27 is faulty. On your board picture the solder joints looks ok, but if you want, confirm that the legs of Q27 are soldered ok on the back side of the board.

If you look at the lamp board schematic, can you tell which SCRs drive the two spinner lamps that aren't working? If yes, run the same two tests on those respective SCRs.
.

Quoted from FatPanda:

For saucer G, what are your thoughts for next steps?

Connect the jumper lead back on TP2 (GND) of the lamp board. You need to insert the other end of the jumper wire into connector J1 pin 28 where the orange-black wire is so both wires are in there together. If the lamp lights, you probably need to re-terminate that black/orange wire. If the lamp doesn't light, there could be a break in that orange-black wire somewhere.
Note J1 pin 28 is the top most pin (the pins on the lamp board connectors count from bottom upwards). You probably need half an inch of insulation removed from your jumper wire to get it deep into the J1 connector.
While you're there just confirm (test again) that touching the bottom right leg of Q4 doesn't light that saucer G lamp.

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Yes it means Q27 is faulty. On your board picture the solder joints looks ok, but if you want, confirm that the legs of Q27 are soldered ok on the back side of the board.
If you look at the lamp board schematic, can you tell which SCRs drive the two spinner lamps that aren't working? If yes, run the same two tests on those respective SCRs.
.

Connect the jumper lead back on TP2 (GND) of the lamp board. You need to insert the other end of the jumper wire into connector J1 pin 28 where the orange-black wire is so both wires are in there together. If the lamp lights, you probably need to re-terminate that black/orange wire. If the lamp doesn't light, there could be a break in that orange-black wire somewhere.
Note J1 pin 28 is the top most pin (the pins on the lamp board connectors count from bottom upwards). You probably need half an inch of insulation removed from your jumper wire to get it deep into the J1 connector.
While you're there just confirm (test again) that touching the bottom right leg of Q4 doesn't light that saucer G lamp.

I've found the spinner inserts and have determined that they behave like Q27, so will replace those also.

For Saucer G, continuity between socket lug and end of pin are ok. Lamp lights when jumper wire is inserted into the pin and grounded to TP2. Q4 still does not light when grounded to TP2 on bottom right leg.

By re-terminate, do you mean snip off the existing end and crimping on a new pin/connecter? (Not sure what it's called) I did remove the wire from the connecter and tried to sand off the pin to clean it, but no go.

#23 6 years ago

If you think you'll repair multiple Bally/sterns this things is a great tool. Put this on the LDB and run lamp test. The board will tell you which scr is out.

http://www.pinitech.com/products/ballystern_lamp_tester.php

#24 6 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

By re-terminate, do you mean snip off the existing end and crimping on a new pin/connecter? (Not sure what it's called) I did remove the wire from the connecter and tried to sand off the pin to clean it, but no go.

Basically yes. The metal thing crimped on the end of the wire that goes into the connector housing is a "terminal".
Before you do this, disconnect J1 from the lamp board. Grab your multi meter and test the continuity (with the machine OFF) of the bottom right leg of Q4 to pin 28 of J1. If continuity is no good, you have an open circuit on the back of the lamp board between those points. If continuity checks out good, re-terminate that orange-black wire going into the J1 connector housing location 28.

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Basically yes. The metal thing crimped on the end of the wire that goes into the connector housing is a "terminal".
Before you do this, disconnect J1 from the lamp board. Grab your multi meter and test the continuity (with the machine OFF) of the bottom right leg of Q4 to pin 28 of J1. If continuity is no good, you have an open circuit on the back of the lamp board between those points. If continuity checks out good, re-terminate that orange-black wire going into the J1 connector housing location 28.

Turns out it was a cold solder joint! "G" is working now!

#26 6 years ago

Quench thank you so much for spending your Friday night and helping me troubleshoot this! I'll order a few SCRs with spares and try to get Whysnow to help me replace them. Will report back once that's done. Thanks again!

#27 6 years ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

If you think you'll repair multiple Bally/sterns this things is a great tool. Put this on the LDB and run lamp test. The board will tell you which scr is out.
http://www.pinitech.com/products/ballystern_lamp_tester.php

Now that I've been professionally trained to test SCRs, I'll stick with the old fashioned way

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Turns out it was a cold solder joint! "G" is working now!

Awesome.

So to briefly explain how it's wired, the switched/controlled/feature lamps (whatever you want to call them) all have the base of the lamps sockets connected to 5.4V DC power via the string bare wire stapled to the playfield.
The other end of the lamp socket that has the individual wire soldered to it effectively gets switched to ground by the SCR on the lamp board. The bottom right leg of the small SCRs (known as the anode leg - you can see next to Q4 it is marked "A") basically connects to that wire leading to the lamp socket. Grounding the "A" leg of the SCR doesn't test the SCR - rather it tests that wiring from the SCR to the lamp is ok.

The top (middle) leg of the small SCRs is the "Gate" leg - you can see next to Q4 it is marked "G". Connecting TP3 on the lamp board to the gate leg manually switches on the SCR. If the respective lamp doesn't light, the SCR is suspect.

Cheers.

#29 6 years ago

I did a little YouTube primer on how SCRs work and that was my understanding as well. Thanks for the great explanation and troubleshooting steps! Hopefully this will help others in the future as well. Also hopefully replacing the SCRs will resolve the problem! Fingers crossed

#30 6 years ago

GREAT thread and help from Quench!!!

QUY > just LMK when you get parts in and we can get them swapped in. You can even pull the board and we can meet up for a few games of pinball whne we get it done. Super easy with desolder gun, just have to go light on these old traces.

#31 6 years ago

tip...

Single sided bally and stern lamp driver boards (the SDB too) will crack the solder joints on the TO220 shaped parts just like header pins will. No plated through hole and heavy parts flexing over time leads to cracked solder joints

here is my cheat sheet for my bally lamp board test rig.
ldb pinout (resized).pngldb pinout (resized).png

#32 6 years ago

Siegcraft LED boards came in today, and they aren't working as expected. At first the bonus inserts strobed, and after about an hour of messing around, the bonus inserts have a faint glow now, includes the 6k insert that wasn't lighting, without lighting up fully. Spent way too much time on it today and now taking a break for a while. Totally frustrating!

#33 6 years ago

Ok. Reflowed solder to the pins and all lamps are working again, but the flickering of some lamps, mostly the bonus inserts still exist, with 6k bonus still out. Whew! Still looking for solutions to the siegcraft LED board flicker.

#34 6 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Ok. Reflowed solder to the pins and all lamps are working again, but the flickering of some lamps, mostly the bonus inserts still exist, with 6k bonus still out. Whew! Still looking for solutions to the siegcraft LED board flicker.

Aren’t these things supposed to stop the flicker? Maybe put a resistor on those trouble sockets.

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Aren’t these things supposed to stop the flicker? Maybe put a resistor on those trouble sockets.

That was my next step, instead of messing around further. Yes, the boards are suppose to stop the flicker, which is why it's a little frustrating. I put regular incandescents in the affected lamps as a stop-gap for now.

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

tip...
Single sided bally and stern lamp driver boards (the SDB too) will crack the solder joints on the TO220 shaped parts just like header pins will. No plated through hole and heavy parts flexing over time leads to cracked solder joints
here is my cheat sheet for my bally lamp board test rig.

I like that cheat sheet chart!

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

That was my next step, instead of messing around further. Yes, the boards are suppose to stop the flicker, which is why it's a little frustrating. I put regular incandescents in the affected lamps as a stop-gap for now.

If it makes you feel any better, my big game with alltek has a few trouble lamps too. Had to switch them back to incandescent too.

#38 6 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Still looking for solutions to the siegcraft LED board flicker.

Presume you've verified the jumper cable to the light board control lamp power is getting to the siegcraft boards ok?

Does swapping LEDs between working/non working locations make any difference?

It has been known some original SCRs can be "lazy" for want of a better term and will still cause LEDs to flicker even with the resistor load fix. Changing those SCRs can fix the issue. As a last step, try adding a 470 ohm resistor across the troublesome flickering lamp socket to give the driving SCR extra load to stay on.

#39 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Presume you've verified the jumper cable to the light board control lamp power is getting to the siegcraft boards ok?
Does swapping LEDs between working/non working locations make any difference?
It has been known some original SCRs can be "lazy" for want of a better term and will still cause LEDs to flicker even with the resistor load fix. Changing those SCRs can fix the issue. As a last step, try adding a 470 ohm resistor across the troublesome flickering lamp socket to give the driving SCR extra load to stay on.

I'm not sure how to verify each of the boards are getting power. I did continuity checks on each of the terminals on the jumper wires, and they are loose in the connecter but I presume they are ok since they show continuity after some wiggling.

My next step would be to solder on the resistors as you mentioned, since there are only 14 lamps that need it.

As far as the SCRs go, at this point, my main goal is just to get all the lamps running so will primarily focus on the SCRs from before. The resistors i can do no problem. Thank you guys!

#40 6 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I'm not sure how to verify each of the boards are getting power.

From memory there were some connector issues with the wire power connector on the siegcraft boards a while back (I could be wrong). You mention these connectors are loose. If the boards don't get power then they won't serve their purpose and LEDs will still flicker, so you need to check this.

If you post clear pictures front and back of the siegcraft board so we can see which version you have, we can tell you where to measure.

#41 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

From memory there were some connector issues with the wire power connector on the siegcraft boards a while back (I could be wrong). You mention these connectors are loose. If the boards don't get power then they won't serve their purpose and LEDs will still flicker, so you need to check this.
If you post clear pictures front and back of the siegcraft board so we can see which version you have, we can tell you where to measure.

Sure I can grab some pics. He was on backorder when I contacted him, so I'm assuming they are the latest version since he said he had all the parts to put them together.

I'm assuming a pic of one board will be enough?

#42 6 years ago

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#43 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

From memory there were some connector issues with the wire power connector on the siegcraft boards a while back (I could be wrong). You mention these connectors are loose. If the boards don't get power then they won't serve their purpose and LEDs will still flicker, so you need to check this.
If you post clear pictures front and back of the siegcraft board so we can see which version you have, we can tell you where to measure.

Would it be worthwhile to solder the jumper wires directly to the board to ensure they're making contact or would that be a bad idea?

#44 6 years ago

Thanks. The top of the surface mount resistors shown below are all connected to the power rail as pointed to by the red arrow.
So measuring at any of those resistors along the row that arrow points to should yield about 5.4V DC when the power wire is properly connected.

BTW, you are connecting the alligator clip to the controlled lamp 5.4V power braid behind the backglass light panel, and not to the G.I or a ground braid?

Seigcraft_Power.jpgSeigcraft_Power.jpg

#45 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Thanks. The top of the surface mount resistors shown below are all connected to the power rail as pointed to by the red arrow.
So measuring at any of those resistors along the row that arrow points to should yield about 5.4V DC.
BTW, you are connecting the alligator clip to the controlled lamp 5.4V power braid behind the backglass light panel, and not to the G.I or a ground braid?

Yes the alligator clip is connected to a controlled lamp in the back box (the "shoot again" lamp to be specific).

To measure, I need to set my DMM to DCV? This is where i get scared when measure voltages with the power on. Where does the red probe go? Black?

1517760565263215984769 (resized).jpg1517760565263215984769 (resized).jpg

15177605961291095212686 (resized).jpg15177605961291095212686 (resized).jpg

#46 6 years ago

Yep, set your multimeter on DC voltage.
Black meter lead goes onto a ground point. TP2 (GND) on the lamp driver board will suffice.
Red meter lead goes to the point where that red arrow points to at resistors on the Siegcraft board. Measure the same point on all three Siegcraft boards.

You have the alligator clip on the correct spot.

#47 6 years ago

I measured each of the boards where you indicated with the red arrow, in respect to the orientation of the board (opposite the jumper connector) and I'm getting 2.75V consistently. Does this mean that the boards aren't getting the required power? It's odd that all boards are reading the same voltage, yet only a handful of lamps flicker.

#48 6 years ago

What voltage do you measure (with the red meter lead) at the braid wire where the alligator clip is hooked up to?

#49 6 years ago

2.75V

#50 6 years ago

Hmm, not good - only half voltage.

What voltage do you measure (with the red meter lead) on TP1 of the lamp driver board? Should be around 5V DC.

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