i had my ass handed to me by some women at Pinburgh this year so I definitely want them out.

differences yes, but i said "in playing pinball" and don't think their hypocampus is THAT smaller than male so they could be lost following the ball in the pinball playfield also motor skills here would be following steel ball with eye movements, time of reaction and pressing buttons, not cutting down trees or driving F1, and mind you, there is a lady beating men in Nascar. I'm all in for bringing more ladies in pinball competition, just making them compete *exclusively* in one division when they are perfectly capable of competing with everyone else has a bit of special olympics vibe.

I voted yes strictly for the sake of potentially attracting more players that would not otherwise choose to participate.

My first thought was to say no, and I still agree with that reasoning; but including more/new players trumps personal preference.

Additionally, a couple of the comments have mentioned crowds and people being gathered around to watch and I can tell you all, I hate those crowds too. I'm not much of a people person and being around so many others in a confined space puts me on edge, I'd much rather play in a quiet game room by myself or with a few close friends. That being said, that's not the world we live in.

But, like I said, including more players or attracting new players trumps my personal preference, imo.

I've been seeking feedback on this issue for about ten months now, and considering the e-mails I've received that have ranged from heavily in favor to frothing-at-the-mouth, I can't say I'm all that surprised to see the poll near dead even.

Out of all of the feedback I've received, however, one aspect that I've never seen properly vetted is the idea of the division as a form of promotion to broaden the base. The discussion always falls into the same back-and-forth about skill and sexism, which are fine topics to discuss on their own terms, but very few people ever touch on the promotional aspect and a how a division like this would fall in line with countless other types of promotional outreach that already happens, a great deal of which (by the very nature of promotion) is directed at specific groups of people with no complaints from anyone.

The "capable" question will always be decided by the A / B / C / D skill divisions, because that is the complete and absolute purpose of those divisions. Whether women are as "capable", in this specific framing of the question, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that a womens division would serve a range of secondary purposes similar to juniors, seniors, and the "team" formats that ran up until a few years ago. It would be solely additive in nature, much the same as if we were to bring back the "couples" side division which was also promotionally directed at a particular demographic.

Framed in these terms, I ask, what is the downside to leveraging a womens division as a way to promote the game and broaden the playerbase? Women are the largest demographic group in the world, and according to the information drawn from millions of PAPA's video hits, they couldn't currently care any less about pinball.

The benefits to including more women are the same as the benefits to including more of any type of person, but it just so happens the demographic of women is by far the largest, most obvious, most easily reached subgroup with the largest immediate potential gains when it comes to attracting new players.

So, specifically to the dissenters, viewed through a realm of promotion, how would you rebut? And, theoretically, suppose your job was to promote pinball however possible, what would you do to compensate for ignoring this massive, unrealized playerbase? What would be your plan-B to attract new players?

I don't think this is anything like the WNBA. Men's and women's basketball are two different sports.

I think this would be more like Darts than basketball.

Or maybe championship shuffle board.

Couples with each person controlling 1 flipper? man that would be fun to watch, especially if both people were in the same oversized shirt!

Frolic - Thanks again to your wife for starting this. I think it's a great idea and am already part of the Facebook group. I couldn't make last month and won't be there this month (will be playing pinball at PHOF instead). However I'll be there in November and am looking forward to meeting everyone.

I like the idea of a separate ranking - I think it would be fun and would attract more of us to pinball. I personally don't find it sexist (although I suppose I can appreciate why some would). We're way under represented and I think anything that attracts women can only be a plus.

Before I met my husband I never gave pins a second glance - mostly because it always seemed like a bunch of sweaty guys were always playing in some dark corner and I didn't want to go anywhere near them. I still think lots of sweaty guys play pinball, but now I'm absolutely fine playing along with them and being a gender minority. However it took a while to get there.

Pins are quite intimidating when you first start. You don't know what you're supposed to do (when I first started I was really good at hitting both flippers at the same time while the ball was still in the upper playfield) - and it's difficult to figure out how to improve. It wasn't until we got our first pin at home that I really started feeling comfortable to the point where I could walk up to a game I had never played before and figure out what to do on my own. I stopped hitting both flippers at the same time, learned how to catch a ball, etc. Once I figured all of that out, it became a lot more fun.

In general I think way more men than women are exposed to pinball when they are young. So when men continue or come back to pinball as adults, they already understand the ground rules - and it's much easier for them to walk up and just start playing. Most women didn't have this exposure (and yes - I know I'm generalizing). We're playing pins for the first time as adults and there's quite a lot to overcome in terms of understanding and skill. So I'm all for a separate ranking that encourages us.

I'm in LV next week and will spend several hours at PHOF each day. I know that at least once every hour or so, someone (male) is going to walk up to me, watch me play for a bit, and then say with surprise "you actually know what you're doing". Yes, I actually know what I'm doing. Someone should make a t-shirt...

Example of a recent conversation:

Husband's coworker dude: So (husband) tells me that y'all have an arcade in your basement. I bet you hate that.
Me: Um, no... why?
Dude: Because he took over your house with his man cave.
Me: Actually the entire downstairs arcade was my idea. We've got 2 pinball rooms and a theater room. The theater is more his thing... I'm the one that plays and works on the pins.
Dude: Oh, that's weird. So you actually know how to play them?
Me: Um, yes. I know how to play them. I also know how to haul them, how to break them completely down and restore them from being in a fire, and how to change the bulbs to LEDs. I know how to open them up and work on things, I can solder things to fix errors, and am learning how to test the boards for errors. I've got my own big box of pinball tools and everything.
Dude: That's weird.
Me: Why?
Dude: Um, I don't know. Ok, well, nice to meet you.... (basically Kermit-flail running away from the freak show girl who likes pinball machines...)

Here is my own entirely worthless opinion (and I mean worthless). I didn't vote, as I can't figure out one answer as being better than the other.

-Women's pinball leagues should entirely be created, expanded, and heavily supported. The league play is as much about social activity as it is about competition. It should be fun and comfortable and (I think) the clear way of "getting more women involved in pinball". It's local. It's casual. It's fun. It's not overly competitive.

-Mixed couples leagues would also be another idea to help bring women into pinball.

-A separate division in PAPA, is too touchy of subject for me to touch with a ten foot pole, as a man. But since it was asked...

There are already divisions (B & C) to allow folks with lower skill levels to compete with each other. Maybe there might be a "just for fun" division, or an exhibition division. But the nature of PAPA championships is all about ~competition~. There was a semi-joking post earlier about an Asian division, because there aren't many Asian players. It really does makes just as much sense to do that, too. As to the genetic/biological differences between men and women, they do exist. But competition pinball is mostly about smart choices, knowledge of rules, and flipper skills. Has there ever been someone winning a tournament because they were physically stronger than the other competitors? I've watched the tournaments, I haven't seen it. Most all the games in the A division are set to be incredibly tilt sensitive, right? Bowen Kerrins totally ruined his chance this past year with a too powerful tilt. Strength hurt his chances.

If a women's-only division were created, I would not at all be upset. I think it would be good to make a gesture that pinball wishes to reach out and welcome women. Although I question whether or not it would be the best gesture that the pinball community should be making. I think "the guys" should be volunteering to help organize women's leagues, or offering up their games for use for those leagues (and then getting the hell out of the way, except to maybe serve drinks and clean up ).

And maybe PAPA could be using the facility as venue for one of those ladies-only leagues (maybe they already do, I don't know).

Only speaking to the point of expanding playerbase, there really isn't any downside, and I don't really see any dissenters saying that's a bad thing. I am curious if you thought about what you would do if adding a women's division did exactly what you wished, and women were exactly 50% of tournament participants. Would you still like to see a separate division?

not sure what the point of this question is. what if we played pinball in outer space? what then?

Is a new division purely for increasing attraction, and when that goal is achieved do the sexism arguments have more merit at that point or not?

do you anticipate female participation reaching 50%? it's a pointless question. frankly it just seems like you're looking for a way to call the idea sexist by transporting it to a non-existent hypothetical reality.

I definitely worded it poorly, shouldn't be on pinside at work on a phone, but I got the addiction...

The way the question was stated was basically "assuming the arguments against are ignored, why is this positive reason not the correct action?" My intended point is that there might be some point where the intended response is achieved and the cons start to become more of an issue, and if mhs has thought about that.

I'm not a woman, I don't know what I would want if I were, but at this time I'm apprehensive of the underlying connotations that separating the genders would imply to some people. But then again if it is the women themselves asking for it, who am I to object? /ramble

NO_MAAM_meeting.jpg

IMHO Mark's (MHS) post is spot on to "WHY" there should be a women's division, and what I was trying to convey. Again, I know a lot of women that would find this to be a great addition to PAPA and would make the difference for them in deciding to go (which is the most important thing).

Some replies indicate "Why not have an XXX division", with XXX being some segregation of people. These all seem to be negative replies that are not supporting more people playing pinball, but an argument for why we should not have a Womens division. I think Mark's post also addressed this - a Women's division will bring a LOT more people to PAPA, where these other XXX groups would not. Maybe it would be good to think of it from a marketing perspective to comprehend the difference better.

Regarding the idea that there should be more Women's leagues - that's a great idea if you can get the people to organize, host, and run it - as well as find enough women to show up. The problem is there are currently not enough women involved in pinball at this time to support this in many locations. This would not be the case if PAPA had a Womens division, because of the large number of people attending and the overall draw of the event.

What interests me, Mark, is why you're asking a bunch of blokes whether there should be a women's division.

Yes, I know, you're asking Pinside as a whole. But Pinside as a whole is made up mostly of men, and any time you ask a majority in a community about doing something good for a minority in a community, the answer's always gonna be "Meh." When you do something to benefit a minority, you don't put it to a vote - you just do it, and hold on until the drama blows over, which it always does.

You've gotta ask, really, "What's the impact to male pinball players, should a women's division be created?" If the answer is "None," or "Very little," then the opinions of male pinball players really shouldn't affect your decision. Ignore them. They've no dog in this race. Give weight to the opinions of people who would actually be affected.

If you create a women's division, some people will give you shit for it... and then they'll get over it. If you don't create a women's division, you'll have this same conversation once or twice a year for the foreseeable future.

As I've already made clear that as a man my opinion is at best irrelevant, I'll refrain from giving my opinion on the topic at hand, but someone brought up the idea of a one-flipper-each couples' tournament, and I think that that sounds like LOADS of fun. That'd be awesome.

People keep referring to this as a segregation, It's an addition. It changes nothing to how the divisions currently work or who's allowed in them. It's referring to and addition division where to participants are restricted to female players just like seniors and juniors are restricted to age.

I think it's worth a try for a year or two and see if you see an increase in female attendance.

I think it's significant to ask the male players, as many of them bring their significant others or want to bring them. It may be hard to reach the target group if they aren't part of the normal channels of communication.

That being said, i would hope women would have the final vote on whether they want this option or at least someone saying "Yeah, my wife (or girlfriend) said she would like it".

My wife actually said this would not interest her in the least.

She said once you get more than 3 women in the same place you get drama (her words, not mine). She will goto pinball shows and arcades and play pinball and she plays the machine(s) we have but she said she would never play in a tournament because she isn't any good at pinball, but if she did, she would want to play in the regular division.

But my wife doesn't represent all women, and she said she could see how some women would prefer to play in an "all girl" tournament.

If you compete in the Women's Division does that exclude you from Playing in A, B, C divisions? I don't mind the idea that there is a women's division, I understand it would make some comfortable and bring new players into the pinball world, I guess it just depends on how they determine points and all of that side of things.

Similar I guess to how they handle Seniors, Juniors etc. I know there are some rules somewhere about how IFPA points get figured out, and certain formats that exclude people. I think it would work with cash prize but you wouldn't get any WPPR points, so you could still play in A,B,C ...i think

edit: this was probably answered but I skimmed the thread

Once that day comes, the decision will be easy. There will be more tournaments and leagues outside of PAPA strictly for women by then. There's already at least two women's leagues that I know of. And current tournament formats are all over the place. By the time things are equal, a ladies only tourney will be considered a normal or simple format. Heck, I hope the ladies bring back more conventional formats. Guys are getting a little too crazy lately IMO. Wait. I gotta learn bowling rules to play in this tourney? WTF?

The restriction on points will keep it from ever getting out of control. Although it would be pretty cool if there was a switch in roles and I regularly had to fight with ladies to get in my location game time. Can't wait.

Generalize much? There are plenty of us guys here that think it's a great idea. Go back and read through the replies again.

Just gathering data / listening to a full variety of opinions. It's the exact same process for any changes we consider.

Cool, cool.

i hope the preference of those who'd actually be affected (women) weighs more than those who wouldn't.

Over here in holland they have a woman division at the dutch pinball open, for as long as i remember coming to it, they are doing it for more then ten years..

This type of discussion whether or not having the woman division at papa.. Is the same kind of discussion why we should allow gay marriage in an way?

Ooh and that is actually also something we dutch people have for over an decade around here.. Gay marriage..

I believe having an extra seperate woman division would be fun to watch for everyone! And for woman they are battling other woman, in an woman friendly environment with men on the sideline trying to coach their woman.. Im all in for it! But like i said the DPO does that for more then a decade allready, so im all used to that.. And they are running it with great success! Just do it guys would be my take on it.

split flipper - my favorite way to play drunk!

but, yes. all for women's leagues. good for exposure, good for people.

inclusion of a women's league also shouldn't exclude them from competing against men.

The Freaky Deeky Dutch! Just kidding, Roy. Mark, I think it would be great for PAPA. My only concern would be if you put Women's, Jr's. and Sr's. all on the same bank of games, how would that affect qualifying as far as wait times during the busier time periods?

You're married, aren't you?

I like the idea of a Woman's division for similar reasons why i like and have run novice tournaments ( not saying women are novices, clearly not) the idea of a novice tournament is for people getting interested in pinball to have a competition where they are not getting crushed and just donating to the prize pool. With so few women playing a Woman's division would serve a similar purpose. Now some of the better Women players would play in the division but that would be fine too because it would give a dual introduction of competitive play plus the opportunity to see some skilled Women racking up monster games. Might discourage some, might inspire others. On a side note i have a horrible record against Women in tournaments, probably the sexist in me saying " don't lose to a chick, don't lose to a chick" and i end up loosing… again

_{Post edited by fna_royam: missed a word}

That is the big question. If you are creating the division to provide a comfortable place to play, do you share a bank of games?

How ever did you guess? She was there when I was writing the reply. I had to put something!

I know it's apples and oranges but when I was watching the Sprint cup race at Talladega on Sunday it made me think of this thread.

Danica Patrick was leading the race, under green, with 15 laps to go. She had the lead for 8 laps and had to pass 5 time Sprint cup champion Jimmy Johnson to get it. A tough feat for anyone, much less a petite female driver in a pink racecar.

If you think standing around a bunch of dudes at a pinball machine is tough, imagine having 43 of them behind you in 800hp stock cars going almost 200mph.

Women are the most amazing beings on earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danica_Patrick

PS, I'm not a big fan of Danica, but I always root for her when she's doing well, I'd love to see her win under green someday, but I think most fans would.

This would be my biggest worry. How much extra time is it going to take now to get through all of the divisions? If it's not going to negatively affect the existing divisions then I don't see an issue with it.

My wife's league has had 4 monthly meets since starting and a total of 15 different women play over those 4 months. The highest turnout has been 9 on a single night.

I can state absolutely, since I am president of the regular Toronto league, that all 15 women who have come out for the women's league have never even attended our existing league. The comfort level for women coming to the women's league means it has accomplished exactly what we thought it would - expanded the base of women pinball players.