Anyone know how the B and C divisions went down? Art and Nick Vegas were representing the midwest in the B and C respectively (sorry if I am overlooking other midwest guys I just know both of them).

I have not heard much about anything besides A.

My money was on the sandbagging 10 yr old to win C. Kid is ranked solidly in the top 200 IFPA and was sand bagging in C division. Based on qualifying I would be surprised if he did not make finals at minimum. Little guy was killing it qualifying and should likely be in A division.

Yeah I had a BLAST!!! Seriously amazing!!!

That said, I am not at the caliber of player that shows up at PAPA. I played in C division and when I realized I was going to end up at ~ 45th (only top 16 qualify), I opted to 'upgrade' to B division just for the fun of it to see if I could get lucky on those games since I knew that bank of games better. I did squat in B and actually spent the majority of my time playing the regular games and having a lot of fun with Mike and Tim learning some new to me games and meeting some new folks.

I will not be going back to PAPA to compete unless there are some changes to the format that prevent people that are obviously sand bagging from playing in C. Numerous people in the top 500 IFPA were killing it in C division. IMHO the system is seriously flawed and they should either make an additional division that is truly for the amateurs or they should limit sand bagging.

200 players in C vs. 100 in B shoudl tell you something. You can also look at scores being put up on games to get a feel for the people that are obviously playing below their skill level.

I am interested in Pinburgh as that format sounds like lots of fun.

Sorry Bowen, but age obviously has little to do with skill. Similarly that PAPA does not have female divisions... I was not accusing him of cheating. I was pointing out that he obviously had no business being in C and the PAPA system of restrictions (or lack of) is obviously flawed. I spoke with numerous C division players and when looking at the scores/ watching the play they all saw the obvious skill level of some C players which do not fit the PAPA defined C player.

I suggest updating the PAPA webpage if you think he was a fair player in C. You may also want to talk with your announcers on the PAPA TV webcast as they also acknowledged that he was sand bagging multiple times. It was a complete joke that he was playing in C as he obviously did not meet the definition>>>

From the PAPA page:
The C division is suitable for casual players, first-time competitors, and other novices. The B division is suitable for players with league or tournament experience, or anyone looking for a greater challenge and potential reward.

Based on both facts and the obvious skill he has, he did NOT meet the PAPA definition of a C player...

He is not a casual player, definately not a first time competitor, and definately not a novice.

http://www.ifpapinball.com/player.php?player_id=1605
59 total events, 3rd place in NW pinball championships, etc...

PAPA set up the flawed expectations of many truly casual players that were in C.

I do not blame him for taking advantage of the lack of restrictions, but at least either acknowledge that the system is flawed or the PAPA definition is wrong, because something does not fit...

as usual, Treveism can say so much more clearly what I was trying to say.

I believe there is a simple way that more importantly can CLEARLY deliniate what consitutes a C player from a B player from an A player by using some sort of combination of IFPA rank/ placement in previous events (including the event rating factor)/ previous PAPA and pinburgh finishing place.

That is obviously for PAPA folks to decide, but I am not the only person giving this feedback and every tournament has room for improvement.

It seems quite obvious to me that with the continueed influx of new people into the sport the biggest area for potential improvemnet lies in the C/ lowest division of play. This assumes that PAPA is interested in growing the sport with new players, and I assume that is true. To me it seems like the A and B divisions are well oiled machines, but then again I am coming at it from a completely differnet POV and I am sure that some A and B players can think of improvements that may fine tune.

I am happy to lend my suggestions from the POV of someone whom is truly an amateur player (and organizer of local events that I attempt to gear towards both the top and bottom of the spectrum for both fun and competition) if anyone wants to brainstorm. I am not sure of all the PAPA constraints or desires for growth/ change, but I am sure the POV of a few noobs could be valuable input rather than merely being disregarded as sour grapes (which is definately not the case; I still had a blast regardless of the division play!)

What this really all comes down to is the current language on the PAPA website allows people to interpret as they see fit. The only rule is based on previous finishing in the big events, but then you have the PAPA language which insinuates something a bit different...

The abiguity of interpretation is clear since Josh himself believes that Escher belonged in C simply because he did not qualify for C last year even though others read the PAPA language "C division is suitable for casual players, first-time competitors, and other novices" and came to the think that someone of Eschers (just pointing him out because he clearly killed it and is ranked IFPA so high) calibur fits more squarely in B.

Please note that I am not complaining but rather being critical and happy to help out also.

nice... an attack and a religious reference all in one post

Do you want to add something to the conversation or just trolling?

I am not trolling anything/ anyone.
I am trying to provide examples of how I see the current system as flawed and also provide feedback for potential improvements that would likely be favored by many amateurs that would like to compete with more similarly matched skill level players.

I never accused Escher of playing dirty or cheating (others made that conclusion based on what they interpret sand-bagging to mean to them), and in fact if you read what I have written I have pointed out that he was a great player and killing it!

I am not exactly sure why he would take offense to anything I have said. As others have said, it is not his fault that he was playing in a division that is below his skill level (that is the only place that age comes into this equation >> he did what others told him; that is what good kids do). When other competitive players were suggesting he do this and the rules allowed it, why wouldn't he?

That does not change the fact that he was still playing a division that was below his current skill level> i.e. using the lack of restrictions to play in the amateur division. IMHO, other competitive players should have given the more appropriate advice which was that based on his current skill level and him recently placing 3rd the NW championships his skill level was more appropriately matched with B division play.

Probably worth pointing out that he played 3 entries and 2 of them actually would have qualified him...

1st, 5th, and 20th respectively based off his 3 entries. NOBODY else in all of C even came close to that level of putting up consistently good entries.

I sent off an email to PAPA at the suggestion of bkerins. As I said, I am trying to help and happy to volunteer my time to do so. I will put my effort in to back up my suggestions. I am all for making competitive pinball more fair >> more appealing to the amateurs.

I agree with you Tim. It seems the term sand-bagging is taken much more strongly than I intended. I do not think of it as equal to cheating like others do, but rather as someone taking advantage of the system that is laid out in front of them. I apologize for calling Escher a sand bagger when I could have more appropriately said, "he was obviously playing in a division that was way below his skill level" and left it at that.

You are also correct that 10 year old kids likely do not have the logic to purposely sand bag and that skill only develops at 11

To be honest, I have seen people sand bag in the few larger events I have attended so it seems somewhat common practice in some pinball circles, especially when prizes and trophies are on the line.

Hopefully the people he looks to for advice in real life will advise him that his skills deem him more appropriately in B in the future, rather than mentoring him to game the system for his advantage. I am sure he will get more out of the long term challenge of playing against similarly matched players.

I appreciate your opinion Jon, but I think may have not read the entire thread. Just a few posts up I apologized for saying a 10 year old was sandbagging and made it more clear that he was merely playing well below his skill level.
It is obvious to anyone looking at his stats that he belonged more squarely in B division play at this time. Regarding him being coached to game the system, someone signed him up for C division play and someone influenced him that it was the best place for him. I tried to be polite as I can, but I believe there was a mistake in where he played and that blame does not lie with Escher as he is a kid and only doing what he has been told to do. Someone should have stepped up and said "Well, you just kicked some serious butt in the NW championships, you have now beaten some of the best players in the world, your are solidly ranked in the top 200... Do you want to play against amateurs or do you want to play against people that are more similarly matched in skill level in B?" Someone also could have re-evaluated at the end of Thursday night when he was already sitting solidly in 1st in qualifying with his 2 entries and realized that he was well above the skill level of the majority of amateurs in C. This is just my opinion, but it is quite evident that he was infact a higher skill level than C. He did not get lucky to get in but rather had a bad day and ended up not winning.

I think you should look at IFPA stats for Escher. His lack of qualification in C last year is a poor measure of his skill level currently. Look at his recent events and the caliber of players he has beat. Look at his qualifying entries.

As I have said a few times, I have zero sour grapes. You do not have to believe me, but I had a great time at PAPA and am merely trying to provide suggestions to make it better for all. My suggestions are mainly around the noobs as that is the biggest growing population >> PAPA needs to decide if they want to promote competitive pinball for all or if the focus is on competitive pinball for the highly skilled. Currently the restrictions and descriptions do not mesh up for one clear view and this lead to expectations that are widely different depending on who you talk to.

Most simply, I suggest making a D division and more clearly outline restrictions for each division that would take the choice away from people. Having 4 divisions will more evenly split up the 'amateur' players into a truly amateur division. Just because the current rules do not restrict you from playing in C division does not make it right to do so.

Nobody is asking for the expectation to win something or to even qualify.

People are asking for a fair shot and to compete against people of similar skill level to themself and for more clearly defined divisions which split up the competitiors more accurately based on their skill. Isn't that what makes the competition fun? It is not much of a competition or fun if it is a spanking... Who likes seeing Jordan spank on the local park team in B-Ball???

Why is a "D" division do far fetched Dr. Joe? I for one would be happy to volunteer my time and skill to help make PAPA better for amateurs. I am sure others would also.

Could even do fewer games in D, like they do for juniors/seniors if # of games is the issue.

There are ways to make competitive pinball both competitive and inviting to new folks/ amateurs at the same time.

thanks MHS. I will send on the email that I previously sent to PAPA contact email (from the webpage) to make sure it reaches you.

Glad to hear about #3 above.

Thanks for everything you do, I had a blast at PAPA and am looking forward to seeing how I can make it to Pinburgh already!!

LOL bangerjay!

Trust me, he would spank you on HH all day long. When not in tounament play I heard he only plays for pinks... Hey apparently is on the hunt for HH so you should be careful...

would love to put a face to the name/ handle Les

www.madrollinpinball.com for more info
only a handful of spots remain, 20 nice quality games, good times and a great group of people already signed up.

"Regarding the C division kerfuffle...my humble suggestion is that PAPA take the top 32 qualifiers in C, and have 2 tournaments. Qualifiers 17-32 would be considered the "D" division once the actual tournaments got underway. This approach avoids the logistical nightmare of adding another bank of 10 games, while allowing more of us amateurs do hand-to-hand combat."

That is a fantastic idea Swampfire! >>for a compromise that does not add as much logistical effort but would potentially help out.

I still would like to see an entice seperate division for D, but great way to think outside of the box to make something new possibly work with little effort. That combined with more clearly deliniated restrictions would be a huge improvement IMHO.

Tony was planning on coming down and bringing a game. I have not heard from him in a while. If you know him maybe see if he wants to carpool. Hope you guys can make it happen. I would love to see the whole crew (Steve, Josh, Tony, etc...).

Yup. it will definitely take some clarity of restrictions to ensure people have the division split made for them.

I personally think it would be great to force anyone that qualifies in top 16 C division up to B for the following year.

With approximately 75 players in A, 100 in B, and 175 in C this year, pushing more people up a division seems appropriate. If those people do not qualify in the higher division the following year then they should be allowed to move back down? Actually I think anyone finishing in the top 50% of any division shoud not be allowed to move down. Basically being better than the median in any division probably means you are appropriately suited for that skill level.

It only seems logical that without forcing people up in a way that matches the influx of newer people the C will continue to get larger and top heavy with players that would possibly fair well in B. Maybe things need to be slightly different when forcing people form B to A (maybe just the top 8 qualifiers).

All very interesting ideas to tweak the system...

It will be cool to see what changes possibly unfold for next year.

Interesting that C division dropped so much from last year...

I assume that is atypical from the previous years trend?

Maybe a D division would actually bring in more novice players if they thought their odds were better?
I know a few guys that would be back next year if they feel the upcoming changes help to ensure they are playing against a smaller group of similarly matched people

DR. Joe >> just want to point out that for me it has nothing to do with how I finished. It has everything to do with competing against a cohort of similarly skilled people is simply more fun. I have zero expectation to qualify.

There is a good chance that even in D I would not qualify, but that is no difference to me so long as I am playing against similarly matched people. I will note that if you toss out the handful of people that IMHO should have been in B (based on skill, tournament experience, IFPA rank, and previous event placement), then guys in 17, 18, 19, and 20 would have made it and those guys would likely feel pretty happy

I think either the addition of D division or the proposed C qualifying bracket and consolidation D bracket pulling from the C division 16-32 qualifiers would be great when combined with more clearly outline restrictions which use some of the tools already available.

From the email I got back from MHS and PAPA they are definatley interested in hearing feedback and that is very refeshing to hear!

I think this is now a dead horse, but am still always interested to hear any other novel ways to improve the event/ any pinball event.

Some of you guys keep focusing on "being beaten" when this whole derailment had absolutely nothing to do with that. I apologized for saying a Escher was sand bagging when he was just playing in the division he was told to.

I did not qualify because I suck at competitive pinball. I freely admit that, but that does not change that this discussion has been mainly about potential changes to the format to make it more welcoming to novice players and better align players into appropriately skill matched play/divisions.