I guess. It's really hard to say though. I'm glad that I don't have to make that decision.

Sure they can. The fallacy is thinking the IFPA rankings should be used as the *only* solution to sorting people to certain divisions. It shouldn't be, but it's not irrelevant either and can be used with other data to help accomplish this task.

For example, I believe that anyone in the Top 150 is certainly an "A" Player. You cannot be ranked that high by just showing up to events.

I believe there is a simple way that more importantly can CLEARLY deliniate what consitutes a C player from a B player from an A player by using some sort of combination of IFPA rank/ placement in previous events (including the event rating factor)/ previous PAPA and pinburgh finishing place.

That is obviously for PAPA folks to decide, but I am not the only person giving this feedback and every tournament has room for improvement.

It seems quite obvious to me that with the continueed influx of new people into the sport the biggest area for potential improvemnet lies in the C/ lowest division of play. This assumes that PAPA is interested in growing the sport with new players, and I assume that is true. To me it seems like the A and B divisions are well oiled machines, but then again I am coming at it from a completely differnet POV and I am sure that some A and B players can think of improvements that may fine tune.

I am happy to lend my suggestions from the POV of someone whom is truly an amateur player (and organizer of local events that I attempt to gear towards both the top and bottom of the spectrum for both fun and competition) if anyone wants to brainstorm. I am not sure of all the PAPA constraints or desires for growth/ change, but I am sure the POV of a few noobs could be valuable input rather than merely being disregarded as sour grapes (which is definately not the case; I still had a blast regardless of the division play!)

What this really all comes down to is the current language on the PAPA website allows people to interpret as they see fit. The only rule is based on previous finishing in the big events, but then you have the PAPA language which insinuates something a bit different...

The abiguity of interpretation is clear since Josh himself believes that Escher belonged in C simply because he did not qualify for C last year even though others read the PAPA language "C division is suitable for casual players, first-time competitors, and other novices" and came to the think that someone of Eschers (just pointing him out because he clearly killed it and is ranked IFPA so high) calibur fits more squarely in B.

Please note that I am not complaining but rather being critical and happy to help out also.

Adam LefKoff (the father of Escher)

He finished 3rd at a PAPA circuit event, NW Pinball championships. He should not have been eligible by the rules to compete in C. That said, he is 10 yrs old and it probably made his weekend that he qualified for C finals, so who cares? PAPA is a world class stage, it attracts people that do not have access to local leagues, tournaments, even games.. There will always be someone that does not "belong" in B and C, so if thats a reason to not play then don't.

Exactly! We have all this useful data from the IFPA so why don't we use it to assist in trying to make the tournament more fair to all that compete. Just use it in conjunction to the rules that are already in place. Everyone can always enter a higher class if they want to so it's not holding people back. If some unknown pinball wizard wins every local tournament but doesn't get WPPR points he can still enter "A" and try to be the Cinderella story of the tournament. I just know I'd be more apt to play PAPA again if I could compete in C knowing that I wouldn't be facing guys ranked in the top 200 in IFPA.

My proposed changes are simple:
IFPA Ranking of 500-101 must play in either A or B
IFPA Ranking of 100 or higher must play in A
These go along with the existing already in place PAPA rules.

I really don't take competitive pinball that seriously (I play in 1-3 tournaments a year) and like that there is an option for guys like me to compete against similarly skilled players at a great event like PAPA. I don't aspire to be an A qualifier and I don't study rule-sheets ad-nausea and set up my games extra hard at home to prepare year round for pinball tournaments. I just play for fun and enjoy a little competition a few times a year. When you see highly ranked guys with tons of tournament experience slide down to C to give themselves an advantage it can be discouraging. I realize that there are still plenty of really good pinball players that aren't ranked top 500 and I think they should be able to pick which ever division they want. I just think that if we have all this great data from IFPA we should use it!

One thing to remember is that the IFPA does not run PAPA, nor does PAPA run the IFPA. I don't think that adopting the IFPA as seeding works, because not all IFPA events are part of the PAPA circuit.

I think it is good to be critical and to look for improvement, but I also think calling a 10 year old a sandbagger is a bit harsh and unfair. You know what division a 10 year old kid enters? Whichever one you tell him because he is 10 years old..... He isn't even aware of sandbagging at 10, he is just trying to play pinball to the best of his abilities.....Kids don't learn to screw other people over comptetively until they turn 11....

As always, things other than the rules don't define the rules: the divisions at PAPA are set by the rules of eligibility therefor.

The fact that people who are quite good at pinball are eligible for C implies that either the rules could be tightened, or perhaps, given that the attendance is pretty stable across divisions due to the way that qualifying works, the addition of more divisions. People who are constrained to a division they think they can't qualify in just won't turn up, so `forcing' people into a higher division may be counterproductive.

The list of events that make you ineligible for C is given explicitly in the document, with the 'etc.' considered to be an empty list.

Congratulations to all of the winners! They deserve that this thread gets back on track.

Classics I - Frank Romero
Classics II - Daniele Acciari
Classics III - Eden Stamm
Juniors - Escher Lefkoff
Seniors - Dave Hegge
C Division - Nick Campbell
B Division - John Flitton
A Division - Bowen Kerins, WORLD PINBALL CHAMPION

I played in "C". I am ranked 1138th. I did not qualify, but it had nothing to do with Escher or anyone else being in the division. It had to do with me. I had four entries that would have qualified me if I had played just a reasonable game 5. In the most memorable I had played 4 solid games and just needed 25 points or so. I had AC/DC left. I own it and played about 200 games on it the week before PAPA. I had the second highest score in C div for the week on the game. It was set up easy with a factory ball save and a generous tilt. 30 million would have done it. I scored under 6. Was this Escher's fault? Did he intimidate me with his IFPA ranking? Nope. I choked. One thing about 10 year olds is they don't choke. They may play badly, they may make silly decisions, they may get distracted, but they don't choke. 48 year olds choke because they make the game more important than it is (and most of the people in this thread are doing the same thing - even a number who apparently did not go, but want to critique - It's only pinball after all...) To kids it's still just a game. PAPA is a tough format and quite frankly when you get below the really top echelon of players the winner will be the calmest, least emotional player who got a few good bounces that week. If you have never been, it is definitely worth the trip. And please tip the washroom attendant. That guy busts his ass. Hearty congrats to all that bested me this weekend. I will be back for more punishment at Pinburgh in April.

On your way out, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya...

Im new to Twitch.tv. I love it. I missed the the live feed so now Im going back and watching it.

http://www.twitch.tv/papatvpinball/b/444134608

nice... an attack and a religious reference all in one post

Do you want to add something to the conversation or just trolling?

You are trolling a 10 year old and PAPA.
Do some research and have some life experience before you let your fingers fly.
I would say more, but you've already managed to embarrass yourself enough.
Feel free to apologize publicly to Escher at any time.

All these people congratulating you on an awesome win and this is what you come back with?

White knighting for a 10 year old kid is admirable but unnecessary. I think everyone here knows whysnow is a bit over the top in the forums. In person you couldn't ask to meet a nicer person.

Now, appologize whysnow, so we can put this nonsense behind us.

I am not trolling anything/ anyone.
I am trying to provide examples of how I see the current system as flawed and also provide feedback for potential improvements that would likely be favored by many amateurs that would like to compete with more similarly matched skill level players.

I never accused Escher of playing dirty or cheating (others made that conclusion based on what they interpret sand-bagging to mean to them), and in fact if you read what I have written I have pointed out that he was a great player and killing it!

I am not exactly sure why he would take offense to anything I have said. As others have said, it is not his fault that he was playing in a division that is below his skill level (that is the only place that age comes into this equation >> he did what others told him; that is what good kids do). When other competitive players were suggesting he do this and the rules allowed it, why wouldn't he?

That does not change the fact that he was still playing a division that was below his current skill level> i.e. using the lack of restrictions to play in the amateur division. IMHO, other competitive players should have given the more appropriate advice which was that based on his current skill level and him recently placing 3rd the NW championships his skill level was more appropriately matched with B division play.

Probably worth pointing out that he played 3 entries and 2 of them actually would have qualified him...

1st, 5th, and 20th respectively based off his 3 entries. NOBODY else in all of C even came close to that level of putting up consistently good entries.

Why not just send an email to PAPA with your suggestions rather than publicly saying systems are flawed and calling out a specific player based on your one-time attendance at this event? No one wants this event to be more successful and more fair than the people running PAPA. It's what they do. They've been doing it for a long time and have received input from hundreds of people over the years. They sweat the details to make an incredible tournament that rewards consistent play over five games. Forcing people into higher brackets based on a system they don't control (WPPR points) maybe isn't the ultimate answer. I can assure you that each division you go up, the competition is much more difficult despite the allusion of so-called "sand-baggers".

When folks read your rather strong opinions based on very little experience, perhaps they are offended.

I sent off an email to PAPA at the suggestion of bkerins. As I said, I am trying to help and happy to volunteer my time to do so. I will put my effort in to back up my suggestions. I am all for making competitive pinball more fair >> more appealing to the amateurs.

I have no horse in the race, nor do I have an opinion on what division Escher played in, I'm just going to present facts and see what shakes out here...

So these are the rules for PAPA 16 as posted on the PAPA 16 website:

" 2. Skill Division Restrictions

Each registered player must choose only one skill division in which to play. A player may choose to move to a higher skill division, automatically voiding all entries in lower divisions (no refunds are provided), but no player may move to a lower division without special permission from tournament officials.

The following restrictions are designed to discourage any player from intentionally competing beneath his or her level of skill:
• Any player who has placed in the top four of the B or C division at the finals of any previous PAPA or pre-2004 Pinburgh tournament must enter the next higher division in their next PAPA tournament. If the player fails to qualify in the higher division, he or she may return to the original lower division in the following year.
• Any player who has qualified in the A or B division of any previous PAPA or pre-2004 Pinburgh tournament may not enter a lower division in subsequent tournaments.
• Any player who has placed in the top four of the A or B division at a post-2010 Pinburgh tournament must enter that division or higher at their next PAPA tournament.
• Any player who has placed in the top four (or three, if only three players are ranked as winners) in any skill division of any other major pinball competition (e.g. Pinball Expo, IFPA, California Extreme, etc) may not enter the C division at PAPA.
• Any player who has not qualified in five or more years may, at the discretion of tournament officials, be allowed to enter a lower division. If any such player demonstrates an inappropriately high level of skill for that division, he or she will be required to move up to a higher division.
• At the discretion of the tournament officials, any player may be required to move to a higher division based on his or her performance or past league or tournament standings.
• Any player who plays in more than one skill division will not be allowed to void their first entry in the higher division. Non-voided entries are used by the automated scoring system to establish which division is valid for each player.
• No player may move to a higher division after noon on Saturday, in order to prevent sudden shifts in standings late in the qualifying process."

These are the facts:

*Escher's best recent finishes are:
Louisville, CO Turkey Fest - 1st Place - Nov. 10, 2012
NW Pinball Championships - 3rd Place - June 23, 2013

Based on how I read the rules, Escher should have played in B, 10 years old or not. I look for him to be giving Josh Henderson a run for his money in a few years.

-Steve Ridge
Louisville, KY

I really don't think the PAPA system or rules are flawed in any way. Nor do I think there was intentional sandbagging going on... I think someone made a mistake or an oversight, plain and simple.

-Steve Ridge
Louisville, KY

There is no way a player, regardless of age, with his resume should have been playing in "C" division.
Look at his IFPA page and the people he has beaten, very impressive.

Not sure why people are piling on Whysnow for making a pretty fair observation.

It isn't always the message, sometimes it's the delivery. Escher is a 10 year old boy who likes to play pinball. He was called a sandbagger (which I have never heard a positive definition for the word sandbagger) by an adult. As adults (regardless if we are online, or in person), we have the responsibilty of teaching kids how to do certain things, regardless of if they are our own children or not......

Is Hilton wrong? No going by the rules as spelled out....
Could he have been less abrasive towards a 10 year old? Absolutely- and calling the kid a good player is a nice positive comment, but the sandbagging could have been left out of it.....

I, for one, was not piling on whysnow. I think, as ralphwiggum said, that it was delivery. I respect whysnow very much and if he says he's willing to put in the work (to make things better) I have no doubt he means it. Matter of fact I will probably need help getting WCS out of the basement for Mad Rollin Pinball 2013 and I'm sure whysnow will be HAPPY to help.

Forget the rules, the kid beat out 15 top 100 players including Elwin at one of the last tournaments he played in. He should have been in A division.

Why would a competitor that one month is beating the best players in pinball turnaround the next month and play against "novices" unless they felt they had a greater chance of winning that division? This by definition is sandbagging.

Forget a few years.... He's giving Josh a run for his money right now. Escher defeated Josh in Juniors at PAPA Saturday night. The kid is the real deal and will likely become one of the big names in competitive pinball in years to come!

Go around and ask every 10 year old what sandbagging is and get back to me....

You think he knows where he "should" play? Honestly? He hasn't had success in previous PAPAs, why would he feel like he is going to now?

Having great pinball skills doesn't suddenly give a young child new-found powers of understanding....

You're exactly right, I forgot about that. So used to seeing Josh in A Division I forgot he's still eligible for Jr. Division... Josh is still 15 as of the last day of PAPA 16 which makes him eligible for Jr. Division again next year as well.

-Steve Ridge
Louisville, KY

_{Post edited by VDrums2112 : spelling}

I agree with you Tim. It seems the term sand-bagging is taken much more strongly than I intended. I do not think of it as equal to cheating like others do, but rather as someone taking advantage of the system that is laid out in front of them. I apologize for calling Escher a sand bagger when I could have more appropriately said, "he was obviously playing in a division that was way below his skill level" and left it at that.

You are also correct that 10 year old kids likely do not have the logic to purposely sand bag and that skill only develops at 11

To be honest, I have seen people sand bag in the few larger events I have attended so it seems somewhat common practice in some pinball circles, especially when prizes and trophies are on the line.

Hopefully the people he looks to for advice in real life will advise him that his skills deem him more appropriately in B in the future, rather than mentoring him to game the system for his advantage. I am sure he will get more out of the long term challenge of playing against similarly matched players.

Here is a link to final round results

http://papa.org/papa16/results.php

Here is a link to qualifying rounds

http://papa.org/papa16/live/

Pinball geek here would have liked to have seen final round results live online for both c and b division like they did with a division in google docs from their twitter feed in future tournaments. Enjoyed watching on iPad the final rounds on Sunday and the night feed from Saturday night.

Escher is, bar none, the most fun person to play pinball with in a competitive setting. His enthusiasm is contagious. He plays like you played at ten, calling out the sayings with the machines etc.
He just can hit shots.

Great kid, great player.

Yeah though the play isn't nearly as crisp as the A division, there were still some great moments in the C division that would've been priceless if recorded. Escher toured the mansion in Addams family in the first round, Nick Campbell was dominating on the hardest Avatar that I've ever played (huge posts blocking the link shot and he was still hitting it consistently when noone else could), and even some dq's in the finals (myself on woz and Les on Avatar). I had a great time and was very very very lucky that I qualified.

How did that happen?

And also very nice of OP to change the title of the post after whysnow appologized.

Wish my 10 year old enjoyed pinball this much

Well in avatar, les had a brain fart and played out of turn. The next game was on wizard of oz and I did the exact same thing which makes my offense ten times worse. Must've been instant Karma for me being happy that les was dq'd on avatar.

That is probably the most honest thing I've ever read on Pinside. Good on you!
Sorry to hear you guys went out that way though. I get so nervous I'll probably do it someday.

I cannot disagree more with your point of view on this. First you accuse him of sandbagging, and then you accuse his mentors of trying to 'game the system'. Please reconsider how you are delivering your message- it is not coming across as constructive or even polite criticism. I do not know Escher well, but I do know his father, and I can say without a doubt that Escher has a very good mentor to follow- one that is always polite, gracious, and respectful.

To suggest that someone who didn't qualify for C in the previous year should be forced to move up to A division is unreasonable. I am ranked in the top 60 and I usually get my hat handed to me.

The point has been made to the PAPA management and I would guess that there will be an update to the rules to better define restrictions- but they may also look at many of these comments as just sour grapes being expressed by people who cannot be happy unless they win. At the end of the day that decision rests with Kevin and Mark. They are pretty smart and will come up with something that works.

To actually respond to the subject of this thread- Congrats Bowen!!!!

-Jon (PAPA volunteer)

Yeah competition brings out the worst in me. Chris Compton was one of the nicest people I met there during the qualifying rounds (as was Chad Hyatt) but a part of me celebrated every time either one of them had a low score on acdc, tron, transformers or ripleys.

Whysnow did you not read the rules before playing in the tournament??

PAPA clearly spells it out on their website who can play in what division.

Your acting like the kid showed up to the event on his own. I'm not suggesting that HE sandbagged. Im suggesting that him being in C division was sandbagging.

I also think your not giving a 10yr old credit. My 7 yr old certainly would understand if I asked her who she should be playing with if she was in his position. I would also have to be the one to sign here up for division. Escher's dad is 38th in the world and has been beaten by his son on several occasions, I would assume he was the one that put pen to paper when deciding which division he should play in. Do you not think his dad knew of his skill levels just coming off of a tournament in which he finished higher than the number 1 player in the world?

It is what it is but if we were not talking about a 10 yr old there would be no argument.

Yeah, I saw him play a ticket then RUN around the corner to watch the A division games, super excited. Very cool to see that type of thing.

Wow-maybe a few of you should start your own thread titled "Changes I'd like to see at PAPA"
The OP started this thread congratulating Bowen on his win, and 30-some posts later, I'm reading about how some 10 yr old sandbagged, and then changes YOU'D like to see at probably the biggest pinball tournament every year.
Why not just organize your own tourney, then you can do what the hell you want to.
Maybe a few of you should just step away from the keyboard for a while...oh wait-my 6 yr old is cheating at Chutes and Ladders-I need to go scream at him.
Lame.

Chutes and ladders is a pretty fun game but certainly not getting all heated with your kid over.

Sheesh.

I appreciate your opinion Jon, but I think may have not read the entire thread. Just a few posts up I apologized for saying a 10 year old was sandbagging and made it more clear that he was merely playing well below his skill level.
It is obvious to anyone looking at his stats that he belonged more squarely in B division play at this time. Regarding him being coached to game the system, someone signed him up for C division play and someone influenced him that it was the best place for him. I tried to be polite as I can, but I believe there was a mistake in where he played and that blame does not lie with Escher as he is a kid and only doing what he has been told to do. Someone should have stepped up and said "Well, you just kicked some serious butt in the NW championships, you have now beaten some of the best players in the world, your are solidly ranked in the top 200... Do you want to play against amateurs or do you want to play against people that are more similarly matched in skill level in B?" Someone also could have re-evaluated at the end of Thursday night when he was already sitting solidly in 1st in qualifying with his 2 entries and realized that he was well above the skill level of the majority of amateurs in C. This is just my opinion, but it is quite evident that he was infact a higher skill level than C. He did not get lucky to get in but rather had a bad day and ended up not winning.

I think you should look at IFPA stats for Escher. His lack of qualification in C last year is a poor measure of his skill level currently. Look at his recent events and the caliber of players he has beat. Look at his qualifying entries.

As I have said a few times, I have zero sour grapes. You do not have to believe me, but I had a great time at PAPA and am merely trying to provide suggestions to make it better for all. My suggestions are mainly around the noobs as that is the biggest growing population >> PAPA needs to decide if they want to promote competitive pinball for all or if the focus is on competitive pinball for the highly skilled. Currently the restrictions and descriptions do not mesh up for one clear view and this lead to expectations that are widely different depending on who you talk to.

Most simply, I suggest making a D division and more clearly outline restrictions for each division that would take the choice away from people. Having 4 divisions will more evenly split up the 'amateur' players into a truly amateur division. Just because the current rules do not restrict you from playing in C division does not make it right to do so.

I do this at 36.

I bet I say "Motherfu*%er!!!" more than he does.....

Im not sure if anyone suggested this, but with the growing number of people maybe a "D" division is in need. Anyone that has previously qualified for C in the top 16 can not play D. Problem solved.

I suggest there be a division for each player in attendance. That way no one will lose.

EVERYONE GETS A RIBBON!!!!

I shouldn't comment but i will... Maybe better restrictions for the c class based on ifpa points. I would like to go and compete but don't know if my ego can hande the D class designation. lol.