(Topic ID: 59431)

PAPA 16 congrats thread that went off the rails


By SteveP3

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 199 posts
  • 72 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by robotronjohn
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 6 years ago

    EDIT :
    Bowen Kerins takes the win in PAPA 16. Congratulations Bowen! Really well played. Great players in the final and great commentary made this a really enjoyable experience. Well done, PAPA!

    EDIT 2 :
    Wow this goes off the rails in the next 20 posts or so. Popcorn time!

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.twitch.tv/papatvpinball

    Check out the tourney live! Complete with color commentary.

    #2 6 years ago

    Very cool, thanks for the post.
    Brian

    #3 6 years ago

    Looks like they're approaching the midnight deadline, so some of the usual suspects are trying to cram in some quick games before the night is through. Keith Johnson finished TAF, then Josh Sharpe played; Lyman hit Indy 500 and now is on Johnny Mnemonic. Josh Sharpe now on Metallica.

    This is a really great idea, I'm happy to be able to watch some of this!

    (EDIT : this post was from Saturday night)

    #4 6 years ago

    This is great. So glad I contributed to the kickstarter. I could watch this stuff almost every day. Can't wait for the full website to be up and running.

    #5 6 years ago
    Quoted from dtown:

    This is great. So glad I contributed to the kickstarter. I could watch this stuff almost every day. Can't wait for the full website to be up and running.

    Ditto. Loving it.

    #6 6 years ago

    Nail biter right until the end for the bubble guys. I can't believe I am going to be gone all day tomorrow.

    I hope they post all of the finals at a later date.

    #7 6 years ago

    Its fun stuff. Now to sleep so can catch the 10.30 am start up.

    #8 6 years ago

    Congrats to the top 16. Exciting finish on AFM
    People really brought their A game

    #9 6 years ago

    Wow what a finish, was way better than preseason football! Weak interview at the end thought, Personally would have liked the 20 year old get in instead but regardless Lyman is winning anyway. Can anyone identify the commentator with the more raspy voice, Adam I think was his name? He did a phenomenal job, really enjoyed him.

    #10 6 years ago

    Lots of fun watching, can't wait until 10am for more!

    #11 6 years ago

    Shot in the dark... but Greg Dunlap maybe? Edit : Nope! Adam Bowman? Edit 2 : Adam Lefkoff!!!

    I kinda lost track of who was who at certain points. I could be totally wrong. My fiance was laughing how I was saying the exact same things at the screen that they were saying while watching them play.

    #12 6 years ago

    Woot, congrats Bowen!

    #13 6 years ago

    So, uh, no consideration for those of us that watch it delayed and don't want to know results before we watch?

    #14 6 years ago

    Bowen was on Fire! Congrats Bowen.

    #15 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    So, uh, no consideration for those of us that watch it delayed and don't want to know results before we watch?

    Checking Pinside wasn't the best idea if avoiding pinball related news. Just saying.

    #16 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    Checking Pinside wasn't the best idea if avoiding pinball related news. Just saying.

    Well, it's rare that anybody puts competitive results or spoilers of any kind in a thread title. That's kinda ridiculous. No problems posting results in a thread, but in the title, that's poor form.

    -2
    #17 6 years ago

    Anyone know how the B and C divisions went down? Art and Nick Vegas were representing the midwest in the B and C respectively (sorry if I am overlooking other midwest guys I just know both of them).

    I have not heard much about anything besides A.

    My money was on the sandbagging 10 yr old to win C. Kid is ranked solidly in the top 200 IFPA and was sand bagging in C division. Based on qualifying I would be surprised if he did not make finals at minimum. Little guy was killing it qualifying and should likely be in A division.

    #18 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Well, it's rare that anybody puts competitive results or spoilers of any kind in a thread title. That's kinda ridiculous. No problems posting results in a thread, but in the title, that's poor form.

    I think people are just pretty excited about a Pinside member being the world pinball champ.

    #19 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Anyone know how the B and C divisions went down?

    I saw a certain whysnow listed in the qualifying for B division. Couldn't seem to find any final standings though for all 3 divisions. So how was your first PAPA experience? Are we carpooling next year?

    #20 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Well, it's rare that anybody puts competitive results or spoilers of any kind in a thread title. That's kinda ridiculous. No problems posting results in a thread, but in the title, that's poor form.

    Can't make everyone happy.

    #21 6 years ago
    Quoted from SteveP3:

    Can't make everyone happy.

    For the sake of others, take the spoiler out of the thread title. It's common courtesy for forum usage. This isn't front page of the local news.

    -1
    #22 6 years ago
    Quoted from DEWSHO:

    I saw a certain whysnow listed in the qualifying for B division. Couldn't seem to find any final standings though for all 3 divisions. So how was your first PAPA experience? Are we carpooling next year?

    Yeah I had a BLAST!!! Seriously amazing!!!

    That said, I am not at the caliber of player that shows up at PAPA. I played in C division and when I realized I was going to end up at ~ 45th (only top 16 qualify), I opted to 'upgrade' to B division just for the fun of it to see if I could get lucky on those games since I knew that bank of games better. I did squat in B and actually spent the majority of my time playing the regular games and having a lot of fun with Mike and Tim learning some new to me games and meeting some new folks.

    I will not be going back to PAPA to compete unless there are some changes to the format that prevent people that are obviously sand bagging from playing in C. Numerous people in the top 500 IFPA were killing it in C division. IMHO the system is seriously flawed and they should either make an additional division that is truly for the amateurs or they should limit sand bagging.

    200 players in C vs. 100 in B shoudl tell you something. You can also look at scores being put up on games to get a feel for the people that are obviously playing below their skill level.

    I am interested in Pinburgh as that format sounds like lots of fun.

    #23 6 years ago

    I will check out the video later.

    Congrats for the win Bowen.

    #24 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I am interested in Pinburgh as that format sounds like lots of fun.

    Hopefully with my Mrs. back to work I'll be able to get to a few events not around here. Glad to hear you had a good time!

    #25 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Yeah I had a BLAST!!! Seriously amazing!!!
    That said, I am not at the caliber of player that shows up at PAPA. I played in C division and when I realized I was going to end up at ~ 45th (only top 16 qualify), I opted to 'upgrade' to B division just for the fun of it to see if I could get lucky on those games since I knew that bank of games better. I did squat in B and actually spent the majority of my time playing the regular games and having a lot of fun with Mike and Tim learning some new to me games and meeting some new folks.
    I will not be going back to PAPA to compete unless there are some changes to the format that prevent people that are obviously sand bagging from playing in C. Numerous people in the top 500 IFPA were killing it in C division. IMHO the system is seriously flawed and they should either make an additional division that is truly for the amateurs or they should limit sand bagging.
    200 players in C vs. 100 in B shoudl tell you something. You can also look at scores being put up on games to get a feel for the people that are obviously playing below their skill level.
    I am interested in Pinburgh as that format sounds like lots of fun.

    I went to PAPA along with Hilton and Tim and had a blast as well! The facility is awesome and I was really amazed at how many games are readily available to play and the general condition of the games. It's not like Expo or MGC where you are packed like sardines and have to wait to get on a game. Very cool! The techs on site were also great and seemed to get non-working pins up quickly. I spent most of my time just in the general play area playing games that I don't get to see or play often and also chatting with friends. It was also cool watching some of the Pros on the big LCD screens.

    I did put a few entries in the "C" bank which had a really nice selection of games but I didn't end up qualifying (I finished 25th). I had some really good games but need to work on my consistency. It's extremely tough (and frustrating) trying to string together 5 good games in a row. I typically would bomb at least one or two... Should have practiced more I guess!

    It would be nice to see a few changes as to who is eligible for each class to avoid sandbagging. Top 500 IFPA players really shouldn't be playing in "C". And I know of at least one top 200 player that was in C. -It just doesn't seem right. I think top 100 players should be forced into "A" as well.. -Just a few suggestions to make things a bit more fair for years to come. I think my next visit to PAPA HQ will be for Pinburgh as I think I'd find that format more fun to play in since it matches you up with people of similar abilities. Overall though I would highly recommend it and think anyone that loves pinball would have a great time at PAPA!

    Congrats to Bowen and the other winners! I would also be interested in seeing the results of the "C" and "B" and Classic's tournaments as well.-Surprised these aren't published yet?

    #26 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Yeah I had a BLAST!!! Seriously amazing!!!

    That said, I am not at the caliber of player that shows up at PAPA. I played in C division and when I realized I was going to end up at ~ 45th (only top 16 qualify), I opted to 'upgrade' to B division just for the fun of it to see if I could get lucky on those games since I knew that bank of games better. I did squat in B and actually spent the majority of my time playing the regular games and having a lot of fun with Mike and Tim learning some new to me games and meeting some new folks.

    I will not be going back to PAPA to compete unless there are some changes to the format that prevent people that are obviously sand bagging from playing in C. Numerous people in the top 500 IFPA were killing it in C division. IMHO the system is seriously flawed and they should either make an additional division that is truly for the amateurs or they should limit sand bagging.

    200 players in C vs. 100 in B shoudl tell you something. You can also look at scores being put up on games to get a feel for the people that are obviously playing below their skill level.

    I am interested in Pinburgh as that format sounds like lots of fun.

    So agree with the many points you make Whysnow.

    From the PAPA page:
    The C division is suitable for casual players, first-time competitors, and other novices. The B division is suitable for players with league or tournament experience, or anyone looking for a greater challenge and potential reward.

    Any player who has placed in the top four (or three, if only three players are ranked as winners) in any skill division of any other major pinball competition (e.g. Pinball Expo, IFPA, California Extreme, etc) may not enter the C division at PAPA.

    #27 6 years ago
    Quoted from MikeS:

    I did put a few entries in the "C" bank which had a really nice selection of games but I didn't end up qualifying (I finished 25th).

    Congrats!! I think 25th is a great showing!! We should all hit Pinburgh next year for sure.

    #28 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    For the sake of others, take the spoiler out of the thread title. It's common courtesy for forum usage. This isn't front page of the local news.

    Done. Although it isn't local news, it's front page news to me!

    Can we be friends now?

    #29 6 years ago
    Quoted from SteveP3:

    Can we be friends now?

    We always were.

    #30 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    We always were.

    12
    #31 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    My money was on the sandbagging 10 yr old to win C. Kid is ranked solidly in the top 200 IFPA and was sand bagging in C division. Based on qualifying I would be surprised if he did not make finals at minimum. Little guy was killing it qualifying and should likely be in A division.

    Jeez man. The kid's 10. Isn't he a little young for you to be accusing him of playing dirty? FYI, it took him several entries to qualify in C, and he was eliminated in the first round of finals.

    Your estimation of what constitutes an A, B, or C player at the world championship is way off base. The number of players in A, B, and C Division has been about the same even since PAPA was held in New York, with 50 players in A, 75 in B, and 140 in C.

    If you want a tournament where division sizes are equal, consider Pinburgh. But I also feel you should apologize to Escher Lefkoff, the 10-year-old you are accusing of cheating. Escher actually did play A at PAPA 14 as an 8-year-old and finished dead last. So, at PAPA 15 he played C and failed to qualify. So naturally these results mean this "obvious sandbagger" should get out of your way and move to A.

    #32 6 years ago

    Any chance you know who won B div, Bowen?

    That was amazing to watch all afternoon yesterday. Some epic comebacks all around, just brilliant stuff at work.

    #33 6 years ago

    The B Division champion was John Flitton. I believe but am not 100% certain that second place was Andrew Rosa II, third place was Brett Berkman, and fourth place was Joe Said.

    The C Division champion was Nick Campbell. I believe but am not 100% certain that second place was Les Kowal, third place was Mike Clinton, and fourth place was Evan Bingham.

    #34 6 years ago

    Darn! Not who I was rooting for. Oh well, thanks for the info!

    #35 6 years ago

    Yeah Escher is great, and my guess will be one of the best in a few years. Very friendly kid, and since he didn't make the top four he is still eligible for the C division. If I were him I would go for the C division again (or whatever division has his best set of games).

    #36 6 years ago

    Sorry Bowen, but age obviously has little to do with skill. Similarly that PAPA does not have female divisions... I was not accusing him of cheating. I was pointing out that he obviously had no business being in C and the PAPA system of restrictions (or lack of) is obviously flawed. I spoke with numerous C division players and when looking at the scores/ watching the play they all saw the obvious skill level of some C players which do not fit the PAPA defined C player.

    I suggest updating the PAPA webpage if you think he was a fair player in C. You may also want to talk with your announcers on the PAPA TV webcast as they also acknowledged that he was sand bagging multiple times. It was a complete joke that he was playing in C as he obviously did not meet the definition>>>

    From the PAPA page:
    The C division is suitable for casual players, first-time competitors, and other novices. The B division is suitable for players with league or tournament experience, or anyone looking for a greater challenge and potential reward.

    Based on both facts and the obvious skill he has, he did NOT meet the PAPA definition of a C player...

    He is not a casual player, definately not a first time competitor, and definately not a novice.

    http://www.ifpapinball.com/player.php?player_id=1605
    59 total events, 3rd place in NW pinball championships, etc...

    PAPA set up the flawed expectations of many truly casual players that were in C.

    I do not blame him for taking advantage of the lack of restrictions, but at least either acknowledge that the system is flawed or the PAPA definition is wrong, because something does not fit...

    #37 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    You may also want to talk with your announcers on the PAPA TV webcast as they also acknowledged that he was sand bagging multiple times.

    I believe I was the person poking fun about Escher, and to be clear, I was being completely sarcastic.

    Escher finished 25th in C division at PAPA last year as a 9 year old, and at that point still had similar 'previous tournament experience' compared to his now 10 year old body of work. Nobody seemed to mind that he competed in C last year, and my recommendation to him this year was simple. He didn't make the C cut last year, so prove that you can this year.

    He put a good run together, and then got beat in the finals by a bunch of other C players. To sandbag appropriately you need to cash in on that big prize . . . otherwise it's not sandbagging . . . you're just another donator

    Josh

    #38 6 years ago

    Don't take the sandbaggers out of the C division! If you do I won't have any justification for doing so bad!!!! There are literally hundreds of us who need excuses for our poor showings and the only thing we have to make us feel better is the guys who are really good and should probably be playing in B.

    13
    #39 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Sorry Bowen, but age obviously has little to do with skill. Similarly that PAPA does not have female divisions... I was not accusing him of cheating. I was pointing out that he obviously had no business being in C and the PAPA system of restrictions (or lack of) is obviously flawed. I spoke with numerous C division players and when looking at the scores/ watching the play they all saw the obvious skill level of some C players which do not fit the PAPA defined C player.
    I suggest updating the PAPA webpage if you think he was a fair player in C. You may also want to talk with your announcers on the PAPA TV webcast as they also acknowledged that he was sand bagging multiple times. It was a complete joke that he was playing in C as he obviously did not meet the definition>>>
    From the PAPA page:
    The C division is suitable for casual players, first-time competitors, and other novices. The B division is suitable for players with league or tournament experience, or anyone looking for a greater challenge and potential reward.
    Based on both facts and the obvious skill he has, he did NOT meet the PAPA definition of a C player...
    He is not a casual player, definately not a first time competitor, and definately not a novice.
    http://www.ifpapinball.com/player.php?player_id=1605
    59 total events, 3rd place in NW pinball championships, etc...
    PAPA set up the flawed expectations of many truly casual players that were in C.
    I do not blame him for taking advantage of the lack of restrictions, but at least either acknowledge that the system is flawed or the PAPA definition is wrong, because something does not fit...

    This is the last I'll say on this matter. First, don't ask me to update the PAPA web site, I don't work for them. You should send an e-mail to Kevin Martin or Mark Steinman about this matter. At Pinburgh, the tournament I help to organize, there are specific division restrictions based on prior tournament results, Circuit points, and IFPA rankings.

    Second, accusing a player of sandbagging is serious. It is taken in similar tones to saying that a player was cheating. It is up to a tournament to decide who is and who is not eligible to play in divisions, not the players. I will suggest again that you should apologize for your accusation.

    Last, you asked in this forum before PAPA what the expectations for A, B, and C players were, so you were well-informed about the type and quality of player in the division. Qualifying in PAPA takes a consistent run of at least 3 out of 5 games, and while many players in C Division can put up big scores on occasion, the challenge lies in building a consistent run. Many players compete in C until they qualify, then move up to B, then eventually A. Maybe this means the names of the divisions should change, or this text on the website should change. Instead you took it out anonymously on a 10-year-old. Don't do that.

    #40 6 years ago

    Whether someone sandbagged or not is beside the point. The bigger issue is that the eligibility requirements should be made more restrictive so that highly ranked tournament veterans don't have to make that decision for themselves. Age aside, 59 events is 10X the number of tournaments I've participated in despite my being nearly 4X as old. I talked to a friend at PAPA that was in B and is highly ranked (top 150) and he said that several people were encouraging him to play in "C" because it was his first PAPA and he was eligible to do so. Of course he didn't because he didn't feel it was right, but that choice shouldn't have been his to make.... I'm sure there are top 50 ranked players that technically "Could" be eligible to register for C if they wanted to. The solution is simple. Put restrictions on classes based on IFPA points. The IFPA points system is in place for a reason and should be utilized.

    #41 6 years ago

    I think what you guys are missing is that PAPA is a tournament qualified FOR IFPA points, not based ON IFPA points or run BY IFPA rules. They could just choose not to submit the tourney to be IFPA certified if it was that much of an issue, but I don't see that it is. The kid didn't place high enough to meet the restrictions to get bumped up, then that's that.

    Volume of tournament play isn't an indicator of overall skill. I don't care if he's been in 50+ tournaments. If he can't crack the top four of C-div, he doesn't deserve to be FORCED to play in B. Period. That's the rule of PAPA.

    I do agree that them stating that it's "for xyz" can be a little bit misleading, but when you're talking about one of the most prestigious tournaments of the year, you've got to realize that the bar is going to be higher across the board. This ain't your local at-the-movie-theatre tournament.

    Signed, IFPA ranking 384, 16 total events.

    #42 6 years ago

    I've played in a competition with Escher. The kid is really, really good, but I don't think he's a fit for the A or B divisions by default. He puts up some fantastic games (his WPT at RMPS was insane), but he's a 10-year old kid. He's not a pro. He's got a lot of raw talent, but he's not going to be as consistently strong as a lot of the other A division players. If his qualifying lands him in C on a given day, that's probably fair.

    #43 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I will not be going back to PAPA to compete unless there are some changes to the format that prevent people that are obviously sand bagging from playing in C. Numerous people in the top 500 IFPA were killing it in C division.

    Unfortunately, you are quite wrong. Out of the top 16 qualifiers, only 4 were in the IFPA 500, some of them... barely. This doesn't mean they are NOT "C" players, since just attending numerous events will eventually nudge you into the top 500. Likewise, playing in many tournaments doesn't mean you are not a amateur player.

    IMHO the system is seriously flawed and they should either make an additional division that is truly for the amateurs or they should limit sand bagging.

    "Seriously flawed" is a touch over dramatic is it not? You are acting like C division is comprised of a bunch of ringers.

    Do the PAPA rules need to be updated? Most likely yes. The division rules were originally written up many years ago prior to the dramatic growth of competitive pinball. I don't remember any edits to them recently so I may be wrong.

    200 players in C vs. 100 in B shoudl tell you something.

    Yes, it tells me that as you go up the skill level ladder, you have less and less people. This is typically true in *every* form of game or tournament.

    You can also look at scores being put up on games to get a feel for the people that are obviously playing below their skill level.

    This is a flawed test because everyone has different skill levels for different games. Back in 2004, I qualified first in C division (and heard the Sand bagging complaints too!), but the game selection was nearly perfect for me as HS2 and T2 were games that I played to death in the arcades. Sometimes people are just better at certain games for a wide variety of reasons, but that doesn't automatically make them A, B or C players.

    I am interested in Pinburgh as that format sounds like lots of fun.

    Pinburgh is awesome and honestly, the better of the PAPA tournaments IMHO.

    #44 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    I've played in a competition with Escher. The kid is really, really good, but I don't think he's a fit for the A or B divisions by default. He puts up some fantastic games (his WPT at RMPS was insane), but he's a 10-year old kid. He's not a pro. He's got a lot of raw talent, but he's not going to be as consistently strong as a lot of the other A division players. If his qualifying lands him in C on a given day, that's probably fair.

    If there were only "A" and "C" divisions I'd agree with you but what you're describing sounds like the definition of a "B" level player to me. Top 200 World ranked players are obviously pretty damn good and shouldn't be competing in C any longer. I think he would have qualified for B if he would have tried. Save C for the amateurs and the players with little to no tournament experience....

    #45 6 years ago

    as usual, Treveism can say so much more clearly what I was trying to say.

    #46 6 years ago

    You can rise the ladder on the rankings simply by going to events and competing. One or two good finishes paired with the sheer volume of points gained from middle of the pack or even low finishes will put you up there. There's probably only a couple of hundred people who are going to more than a few events per year. If I was attending 1-2 events per month, I'd probably have a legit shot at cracking the top 200 before too long.

    #47 6 years ago

    Congrats, Bowen!

    Great video coverage and commentary by PAPA tv.

    #48 6 years ago

    Don't ringers usually win? In the end, it's only pinball. somebody wise once said that.

    #49 6 years ago

    Like Frax said I dont think you can base things off IFPA points and relate it to papa divisions, there are guys that don't have many local tournaments and can't get WPPR points on a regular basis as other guys, but that doesn't mean they are not A or B players.

    I dont think a 10 year old can make the critical strategy and rule decisions as an A or B player can. If you look at Joshua Henderson he is 15 and you can slowly see how he is getting better and better. Its not just his skill - its his knowledge of the games, when to take risks, when to hold back, changing your strategy as you see other peoples scores etc. Thats what makes these guys great 'A' division players!!

    Couldn't make PAPA this year but I have qualified for C several times, never won C, but I will be playing B next year - people say Im a B player so thats what I guess I should do.

    And lets not forget why we are in this thread. Congrats again Bowen, we watched the entire event here in NJ, and you guys all played great... that last game of MM had me worried but I was pulling for you.

    #50 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    You can rise the ladder on the rankings simply by going to events and competing. One or two good finishes paired with the sheer volume of points gained from middle of the pack or even low finishes will put you up there. There's probably only a couple of hundred people who are going to more than a few events per year. If I was attending 1-2 events per month, I'd probably have a legit shot at cracking the top 200 before too long.

    That's true, but if you're playing in 1-2 events a month and rising to the top 200 IFPA rankings regardless of skill level you most likely don't fit the PAPA C level definition of being a novice or casual player. The B level already exists for people that fit this criteria.

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